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Old 01-21-2014, 05:01 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Guys we as of right now have no clue where we are going in the draft. We need a GM, also cuts are coming. A lot to do before we know where we are looking. We do know somethings like, upgrading the pass rush, finding a QB and needing a 3rd ad 4th WR.
The GM was hired less than an hour after your post.

Hopefully, we will do a Lovie thing and put big emphasis on a returner and hopefully that guy can be a good 3rd WR. Robert Herron in round 4 might make sense.. Dri Archer...DeAnthony Thomas.... I'd love to see:

Round 1) DE---Barr, Mack, or trade back.... I wouldn't be surprised, however, if we shocked everybody and took a guy like LB CJ Mosely to give the Bucs defense a true MLB with centerfielder skills.

Round 2) QB--- Hopefully some competition and longterm replacement for Glennon. I love Brett Smith of Wyoming. I think he would fit Tedford extremely well. He has a better arm than given credit for, a quick release, and outstanding pocket presence and mobility. Check out his Nebraska tape and you'll see a real gamer that competed like hell despite leading an offense that was almost completely overmatched (except for Herron). If Derek Carr falls, perhaps we scoop him up... if Garropolo really showcases himself well, perhaps him. Other guys that we may perhaps look at if they are around DT Aaron Donald, not much size but great quickness and motor. Kyle Van Noy has the ability to do a little of everything. I could see him being a Mike in the NFL. He covers really well, can bring heat and is a solid tackler.

Round 4) WR----A guy like Herron would be nice here. A smallish WR with great speed to stretch the field but can also be a factor in the return game. It might be too early for Dri Archer (yes, I know he's a RB) or DeAnthony Thomas but if they like them enough it would make sense. Of course what will impact what we do most is with what we do in free agency... I could see us also drafting a big collegiate OT with problems in space and converting him to OG.

I think the rest of the draft will consist of cover-2 type CBs, an LB that can run, or a blocking TE.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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The GM was hired less than an hour after your post.

Hopefully, we will do a Lovie thing and put big emphasis on a returner and hopefully that guy can be a good 3rd WR. Robert Herron in round 4 might make sense.. Dri Archer...DeAnthony Thomas.... I'd love to see:

Round 1) DE---Barr, Mack, or trade back.... I wouldn't be surprised, however, if we shocked everybody and took a guy like LB CJ Mosely to give the Bucs defense a true MLB with centerfielder skills.

Round 2) QB--- Hopefully some competition and longterm replacement for Glennon. I love Brett Smith of Wyoming. I think he would fit Tedford extremely well. He has a better arm than given credit for, a quick release, and outstanding pocket presence and mobility. Check out his Nebraska tape and you'll see a real gamer that competed like hell despite leading an offense that was almost completely overmatched (except for Herron). If Derek Carr falls, perhaps we scoop him up... if Garropolo really showcases himself well, perhaps him. Other guys that we may perhaps look at if they are around DT Aaron Donald, not much size but great quickness and motor. Kyle Van Noy has the ability to do a little of everything. I could see him being a Mike in the NFL. He covers really well, can bring heat and is a solid tackler.

Round 4) WR----A guy like Herron would be nice here. A smallish WR with great speed to stretch the field but can also be a factor in the return game. It might be too early for Dri Archer (yes, I know he's a RB) or DeAnthony Thomas but if they like them enough it would make sense. Of course what will impact what we do most is with what we do in free agency... I could see us also drafting a big collegiate OT with problems in space and converting him to OG.

I think the rest of the draft will consist of cover-2 type CBs, an LB that can run, or a blocking TE.
Couldnt agree more. However, if Watkins is there round 1, I'd have a vVERY VERY Hard time passing on him.

Round 2, Jimmy Garrapolo. Favorite. I like Brett Smith but Garrapolo just fits like a glove in this offense.

Round 4, I like Herron as well. Marcus Smith from Lousiville could be there , DE.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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If the other more obvious needs are addressed in FA, I would have no problem with Watkins.

I need to watch more tape on Jimmy G.. I wasn't all that impressed as it seemed a lot like watching Carr's tape...but I only watched two games so I may really be missing something. Instead of rewatching Smith over and over again, that Nebraska tape was super impressive, I need to watch Jummy G. as his stock keeps elevating.
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Old 01-21-2014, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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Round 4, I like Herron as well. Marcus Smith from Lousiville could be there , DE.
Or the other Smith from Arkansas.
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Old 01-22-2014, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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One thing that we need to keep in mind is that, while the Bucs will have about $16 million in free cap space (give or take $2-3 million based on how much the cap increases), they're not working with a lot of space in comparison to the rest of the league. At least 10 teams, lead by the Raiders with a projected $63 million in space, are expected to have more space than the Bucs, which means that there will probably be significant competition for the upper-tier free agents this off season.

With that in mind, it's unlikely that the Bucs will be able to sign more than one or two starters via free agency. It's much more likely that the Bucs will look for cheaper options to build depth, which has really been the Achilles heal of this team for several years.

If I am right, the smart move in the draft would be to focus on guys who project as immediate contributors in order to improve the starting lineup or Lovie Smith's first year in Tampa is going to be a rough transition. This is one of the major reasons why I expect the Bucs to pass over this year's crop of quarterbacks (and thankfully so, because, like DeadEagle, I think all of them will bust) and give Glennon the opportunity to earn the job against a free agent veteran.
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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Check out overthecap.com and you can see where the team can get a lot more money. Between cutting Joseph at first chance and then Nicks after June 1, it's something like an extra $15 million.

For the record, you might not like this group of QBs...but at least 3-5 of them would be a huge upgrade over Glennon.

That being said, I would think the most likely target be Josh McCown to come in to provide competition, athletic ability (all of Tedford's QBs could run-except Longshore), and experience. I still have a 2nd round man crush on Brett Smith and think he is highly talented but would probably greatly benefit from sitting for a year or two.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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For the record, you might not like this group of QBs...but at least 3-5 of them would be a huge upgrade over Glennon.
I totally disagree. I see busts across the board, so none of them appear to be upgrades over Glennon to me.

You mentioned Josh McCown and that's my preferred solution. Sign him to provide competition for Glennon. If Glennon can't win the job or crashes and burns when he does, hopefully 2015 has a better crop of QBs.


Also, I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Nicks won't provide any cap relief for the Bucs if he's cut this offseason. I thought he had one more guaranteed year under his contract.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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I hope we sign Brian Orakpo. Teaming him up with McCoy would give us two studs up front.
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Old 01-23-2014, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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I totally disagree. I see busts across the board, so none of them appear to be upgrades over Glennon to me.

You mentioned Josh McCown and that's my preferred solution. Sign him to provide competition for Glennon. If Glennon can't win the job or crashes and burns when he does, hopefully 2015 has a better crop of QBs.


Also, I could be mistaken, but I was under the impression that Nicks won't provide any cap relief for the Bucs if he's cut this offseason. I thought he had one more guaranteed year under his contract.
As I said before, checkout overthecap.com. Run the numbers yourself. Click box of "Cut after June 1". I just did it http://overthecap.com/calculator/?Team=Buccaneers Nicks' cap number falls from $9.3 million to $2.3 million. A $7 million savings. Cutting Joseph even before JUne 1, takes all $6 million off the books for 2014, and cutting Koenen clears his entire $3 million off. Those three combine for $16 million dollars we could save by cutting them.

And according to their extremely detailed site, they have: 2014 Total Liabilities $106,036,445 Salary Cap $133,472,584 Cap Room $27,436,139 if we were to cut those three.

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Old 01-23-2014, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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I hope we sign Brian Orakpo. Teaming him up with McCoy would give us two studs up front.
Orakpo and Hardy are going to be McCoy's teammates all week down at the Pro Bowl... I hope he is doing some hardcore recruiting of both of them.

Hardy at LDE and Orakpo at RDE would be a dynamite duo with McCoy at UT and pretty much anybody else at NT. Clayborn could play the old Ellis Wyms role and be the DE/DT top sub and probably still see no less than 60% of the snaps.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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Listen McCown played well in his spare time but I'm not bringing him in to compete. There is a reason at 35 he had never been a starter. Like glennon I think he's a good back up to have. But when you have to bring in competition then you're looking for a qb.

I agree with brasho. I think there is 7 better prospects than glennon in this draft.

- Manziel
- bridgewater
- bortles
- Carr
- Garrapolo
- smith
- Murray.

I know I get ripped for liking Murray but the dude proved it this year when all his top weapons went down and he still kept Georgia alive in games. Had an upset in auburn on the cusp. Baller. Not beating the drum for him but I like those guys better than glennon.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Listen McCown played well in his spare time but I'm not bringing him in to compete. There is a reason at 35 he had never been a starter. Like glennon I think he's a good back up to have. But when you have to bring in competition then you're looking for a qb.

I agree with brasho. I think there is 7 better prospects than glennon in this draft.

- Manziel
- bridgewater
- bortles
- Carr
- Garrapolo
- smith
- Murray.

I know I get ripped for liking Murray but the dude proved it this year when all his top weapons went down and he still kept Georgia alive in games. Had an upset in auburn on the cusp. Baller. Not beating the drum for him but I like those guys better than glennon.
You know I'm not a Murray fan, but I'll take the other 6 over Glennon any day.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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You know I'm not a Murray fan, but I'll take the other 6 over Glennon any day.
Let's discuss this. What do you not like about Murray ?
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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Listen McCown played well in his spare time but I'm not bringing him in to compete. There is a reason at 35 he had never been a starter. Like glennon I think he's a good back up to have. But when you have to bring in competition then you're looking for a qb.

I agree with brasho. I think there is 7 better prospects than glennon in this draft.

- Manziel
- bridgewater
- bortles
- Carr
- Garrapolo
- smith
- Murray.

I know I get ripped for liking Murray but the dude proved it this year when all his top weapons went down and he still kept Georgia alive in games. Had an upset in auburn on the cusp. Baller. Not beating the drum for him but I like those guys better than glennon.
Qb is by far our biggest need. And we could have all the talent in the world, but without that QB running the show we are done.

I'm a big fan of the way McCown played for the Bears this past season. He started 5 games had 11 Td's to 1 Int. And in two other games where he was thrown in, Skins ans Lions games he almost pulled off amazing come backs. That's not small sample size of plays. It's half a season he was QBing for the Bears and their offense looked better with him ( McCown ) doing it than Cutler. Yes I know he's 34 right now, but if the light came on for him are you really going to say to late? People keep bringing it up but Rich Gannon took the Raiders deep into the Playoffs and to a Super Bowl late.


But lets talk about Glennon for a second. How does a kid who takes over a mess of a team that just kicked their opening day starter off of, makes the offense better, throws 19 Td's to 9 Ints and almost 60% Comp. Is missing his Pro Bowl RB and his backup ( Martin and James ) missing his second WR ( Williams ) cut the 3rd WR ( Ogeltree ) missing for most of the season two starting TE's ( Stocker and Crabtree ) and missing Pro Bowl OG in ( Nicks ).

Forcing us to use Underwood as a starting WR. Wright as a TE even tho he was a WR in college and a rookie. Move around the Oline all season. And sign a RB off the street to end the season.

Glennon should be a hero... Not replaced.
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Old 01-26-2014, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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That's the thing I have big Buc. You state his TD to int ration. It's solid for 13 game sample size but a few games he had some stat padding (Carolina and New Orleans) at the end. 60% ? It was under 60% and has the worst YPA in the nfl. Watch the film his completion percentage is inflated. Check down machine.
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Old 01-26-2014, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the team's quarterback situation... And if Licht's initial press conference is any indication, it sounds like he favors the idea of bringing in a veteran to compete with Glennon.


On a separate note, I think we can all agree that the Dennis Hickey being hired by the Dolphins is great news for the Bucs. Hopefully we can hire a competent replacement for that moron and have some consistently solid drafts for the first time in a while.
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Old 01-26-2014, 09:52 PM    (permalink
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I said " almost 60% ".... And the number is 59.4%. My bad
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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I said " almost 60% ".... And the number is 59.4%. My bad
lol that's not what I was saying. I said even that # was inflated. Check down city man.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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We can all point to stats to try to skew opinion on a player. In my wishful thinking I pointed to Freeman's 4000 yard season last season as my hope that he would do better this season. Obviously, that wasn't the case... but here are some great stats for you.


Glennon was sacked almost once for every 10 passes he threw. Most of those were completely on him for NOT throwing the ball away, finding an open receiver, or taking a shot downfield. Bottom line, he held onto the ball way too darn long. His checkdowns and reliance on short routes might be fine and dandy when a team is nursing a lead, but when the team is down by double digits and Glennon continually checked down, refused to push the ball down the field, and wasn't even successful at moving the sticks with that, one has to wonder. His yards per attempt were atrocious at 6.3 and he proved time and time again, that he could NOT push the ball downfield to keep defenses honest due to his weak arm.


People like to compare Glennon's rookie rating with Peyton Manning's. 83.9 to Peyton's 71.2...only problem? There really is NO comparison. Peyton Manning was responsible for keeping his crappy team in games. Their defense was terrible but due, mainly to Manning, the Colts offense that season was the 12th best in the league (the Bucs, dead last). Also, Manning, took only 22 sacks compared to his 575 passes (Glennon took 40 and threw 415 passes). Sacks are absolute drive killers... and when a player doesn't have the necessary arm strength or accuracy to push the ball down the field, there is no way to overcome them. I know some of the 40 sacks Glennon took occurred on the same drive, but let's just say, there were at least 30 drives killed by Glennon sacks. And when a team is facing 2nd and 16 and the QB only averages 6.3 yards per attempt, that makes it nearly impossible to get a first down in two plays. He took 12 sacks on 3rd down and 6+ alone despite only getting off 87 passes...what a horrible ratio.


Also, QB ratings have increased greatly since 1998. Glennon's rating was 21st in the league this past year, in 1998 Manning's 71.2 was 23rd. On top of that, the total ratings from all QBs in 2013 was 84.1... meaning Glennon was just below average (but ratings also don't figure in drive killing sacks or 5 yard completions on 3rd and 8) while in 1998 the ratings for all QBs was 76.2...meaning Manning was just below average. Manning though, had the league's 29th ranked scoring and total defense in the league (out of 31 teams)... the Bucs D by comparison, was much much better. Manning also had 4 300 yard games in his 16 starts while Glennon never threw for more than 275 (Manning threw for 275 6X). Also, Manning started that season with a horrible TD to INT ratio of 6-14 through the first weeks, never achieving a rating of over 67 the entire time, he finished the last 10 games with 20 TDs and 14 ints. Glennon on the other hand got progressively worse as the season went on.


Now on to crunch time... Mike Glennon in the 2nd half of games... this is when a future stud plays his best... Glennon and the Buccaneer offense were dreadful. Glennon's 2nd half rating was something like 63 when the team needed him most...and despite the softer defenses and Glennon STILL throwing checkdowns play after play, he still stunk... at least Brian Griese could pad his stats against the prevent. His rating in the 2nd half was 63.7... is this the kind of star that will lead us into the future?


In order for Glennon to be effective, he needs everything to go right, everything to be working, otherwise, when he's asked to make a play, it doesn't happen. More statistical ineptitude is visible: mike-glennons-statistical-splits-are-really-weird


Mike Glennon is absolutely NOT the answer unless we're looking for a much taller, skinnier, less athletic, and weak-armed version of the Human Sack Machine, David Carr. Competition is more than warranted. Any coach that likes mobile QBs, Tedford's track record suggests he does so strongly, will hate Glennon. I expect a QB to be added as a free agent, McCown may come here fairly cheap if given the opportunity to start, and and I expect another QB to be added in the draft sometime during rounds 1-3.
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Old 01-27-2014, 07:25 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Bucfan12, we have discussed, you and I, Murray in great detail in the past. He did better this season and not throwing jump balls every time he was pressured but he did little to alleviate my concerns with his arm and ability to operate under pressure, obviously he's short and that isn't a death sentence.. but I don't see the Russell Wilson cannon or mobility or the Drew Brees accuracy and athleticism to make up for it. Add in the ACL injury that may take away from his decent mobility but factor in the fact that he will miss most of, if not all of training camp.. and I can't see any team taking him before round 4.

However, as much as I am not convinced Murray isn't anybody's answer to the starting QB position, he actually reminds me of Eric Zeier greatly, and a little of Major Applewhite, I haven't watched any "film" on him, but instead just watched several Georgia games over the past few seasons. I will watch film on him in the very near future and perhaps as I focus on him solely I may change my opinion of him. I will let you know.
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Old 01-28-2014, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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Everything you just said was a great read. And very true about what Glennon did last year. But we are talking about a player that most likely should not have played in his first year, let alone tossed in to save a team.

I just feel Glennon does have some game to him. And with coaching and some more time should be able to become a player in this league.

Qbing is a growth process. And every player is different. Drew Brees took a full 3 season to become a big time player. Rivers was on the sideline for years. Came in looked great, lost is mojo and found it again this year. Roethlisberger takes sacks all the time because of holding onto the ball to long, but that's where he makes huge plays.

You make it seem like Glennon shouldn't be playing in the NFL. He might not be the QB that leads this team for ten years to come, but I think he can improve. For a rookie who wasn't ready to play at this level, tossed into a mess... he did a very good job.
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Old 01-28-2014, 10:16 AM    (permalink
brasho
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Granted, the entire team was a mess... and I commend Glennon for doing pretty much all he could do...but he is very limited in what he can do. QB is a growth process, but I'm not alone in saying that I don't see Glennon growing much more. Based on the growth process idea (which I do agree with to an extent), Bruce Gradkowski should have been able to build on his rookie year and became a competent starter, Josh Freeman would've taken his sensational 2nd season and become the best QB in the league, Carson Palmer would've increased his early years success and become bound for Canton...but they didn't. And those guys that didn't had considerably better measurables. You just don't see QBs succeeding as elite starters at the NFL level with no mobility, a weak arm, that takes too many sacks, and won't take shots downfield. Glennon should DEFINITELY be in the NFL... I just don't ever see him being anything more than a Brad Johnson-type, though even Johnson had consirably better athletic ability than Glennon.

Young future star QBs often show flashes of potential several times a game...sometimes it's in between mistakes, but you see it... I see very little of those flashes from Glennon. I see woefully underthrown deep balls, I see open intermediate routes checked down to much shorter and safer routes, I see no ability to escape or even elude the rush, I just don't see the potential. Everything has to go right for him to succeed. We need better.

One other factor coming into Glennon, when compared to other younger QBs...he'll be 25 this upcoming season. That's a tad bit older than most 2nd year players... what I'm saying is that physically, he might be about as good as he's going to get, he's also played a ton of football so the curve that he's on doesn't compare with a 21 year old rookie that's only played 3 seasons at the college level. Glennon redshirted his first two years in college then sat behind a pretty good QB in Russell Wilson... contrary to popular belief, Russell Wilson was dissuaded by his coach to continue playing baseball for the Rockies organization and decided to no to return to play there and was allowed to transfer to another school and play immediately BECAUSE he had already graduated (I love this rule!). Not because Mike Glennon wsa such a promising prospect that HAD to play. As a matter of fact, Glennon's passing statistics do fare reasonably well with Wilson's while at NCSU... it's the feet where Glennon was sorely lacking.

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Old 01-28-2014, 12:59 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Brasho , agree 100% on glennon. He didn't flash that potential in terms of wow. Nfl starter. He flashed an "ok decent outing" here and there which makes me believe if everything goes right he might be an ok starter. But I think he's a great back up qb to have in terms of say josh McCown like.
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Old 01-28-2014, 07:20 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
Brasho , agree 100% on glennon. He didn't flash that potential in terms of wow. Nfl starter. He flashed an "ok decent outing" here and there which makes me believe if everything goes right he might be an ok starter. But I think he's a great back up qb to have in terms of say josh McCown like.
And, Josh McCown still has some football ahead of him. He always had ability, good arm, good mobility, good size, perhaps the light has finally gone on for him. Stranger things have happened (Rich Gannon). He's very well preserved as he hasn't played all that much. He could conceivably come in an be more than serviceable for a couple of years, plus give the downfield and scrambling/buying time element that Glennon sorely lacks, which seemingly Tedford prefers.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Kind of hard to gauage Glennon considering the coaching and lack of weapons he had working with him. It seems some of Glennon's strengths are a fit for Tedford's system, intelligent and accurate with the intermediate stuff. Minus the scrambling brasho mentioned of course, although he didn't have much of a Oline or running game to work with either.
I wouldn't mind Murray as a late round pick.
If Bridgewater falls to us then great, if not i'm fine with rolling with Glennon and a vet or Glennon and a late round pick this year. If Glennon does not show improvement we have a pretty good QB class to get our "franchise QB" in 2015.
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