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Old 11-26-2013, 02:01 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Not sure what part of passing Griffin is good at. He doesn't see the whole field very well and holds onto the ball too long. His accuracy is streaky but mostly has been bad in early parts of games.

I'm all for getting him totally healthy but he's hasn't shown a willingness to protect himself out there. My guess is a year from now he'll still be pretty much the same QB.
His mechanics are off right now. His feet are all over the place. Last year he showed good overall mechanics and surprisingly good accuracy for a rookie. He's coming off of knee surgery, it's been visibly pointed out on broadcasts that he's been hesitant on it and it's lead to misfires. I wasn't actually as high on him during the draft process as most. I thought he and Tannehill were neck and neck. But the film from last year is still there, when he was a confident and effective QB. I just get frustrated when we go to extremes on a young guy. Last year he's going straight to Canton, and this year he's trash and the Skins would be better off with Cousins (which no credible Washington fan believes)

You gotta let a guy develop. He's just going to have to get through this rough stretch.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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His mechanics are off right now. His feet are all over the place. Last year he showed good overall mechanics and surprisingly good accuracy for a rookie. He's coming off of knee surgery, it's been visibly pointed out on broadcasts that he's been hesitant on it and it's lead to misfires. I wasn't actually as high on him during the draft process as most. I thought he and Tannehill were neck and neck. But the film from last year is still there, when he was a confident and effective QB. I just get frustrated when we go to extremes on a young guy. Last year he's going straight to Canton, and this year he's trash and the Skins would be better off with Cousins (which no credible Washington fan believes)

You gotta let a guy develop. He's just going to have to get through this rough stretch.
Not sure who said that. A lot of people thought it was a gimmick offense that would be caught up to by the rest of the league.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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His mechanics are off right now. His feet are all over the place. Last year he showed good overall mechanics and surprisingly good accuracy for a rookie. He's coming off of knee surgery, it's been visibly pointed out on broadcasts that he's been hesitant on it and it's lead to misfires. I wasn't actually as high on him during the draft process as most. I thought he and Tannehill were neck and neck. But the film from last year is still there, when he was a confident and effective QB. I just get frustrated when we go to extremes on a young guy. Last year he's going straight to Canton, and this year he's trash and the Skins would be better off with Cousins (which no credible Washington fan believes)

You gotta let a guy develop. He's just going to have to get through this rough stretch.

I did say I was all for getting him healthy but he has a lot of flaws that are more cerebral than physical.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Not sure who said that. A lot of people thought it was a gimmick offense that would be caught up to by the rest of the league.
The media did. And independent of the gimmick offense, Griffin made some amazing plays. Nobody can deny that. Maybe it's the predictablity of the offense that is making Griffin look worse than he really is? It goes both ways. The pistol isn't fooling the San Francisco defense. The goal should be to get RG to the point where he can do everything at the LOS himself.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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I did say I was all for getting him healthy but he has a lot of flaws that are more cerebral than physical.
Gotta get him some more experience and more offseason work before we can judge his mental game.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Cam.

I still believe in RG3 though. I'm not ready to write him off just yet.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Gotta get him some more experience and more offseason work before we can judge his mental game.
The problem is he'll always have his athleticism to fall back on. It's a blessing and a curse. It's hard to break habits he's had his whole life. They need to make him practice in ankle weights or something. Haha. I personally don't think it's mental. I think he's just an extremely bad thrower of anything but the deep ball.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Luck has clearly distanced himself from the pack.
People keep saying that because they keep expecting him to, but really he hasn't yet.
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Old 11-26-2013, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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Last year I said I'd take Cam Newton over any young QB not named Andrew Luck and I struggled with picking Luck over him.

Luck has clearly distanced himself from the pack. Cam Newton is and always has been better than Griffin, Kap & Wilson. You put him on the Niners the past two years and they are going for their third straight Super Bowl right now.

Couldn't believe he was being exclusively ranked behind those three when ESPN were pumping Kap, RGIII & Wilson at the end of last year.

Best college player of all time & the start to his career hasn't been matched by many people. Always take the 6'5, 250 QB with the 4.5 & rocket arm. He still has a lot to work on but I'm glad he's getting more praise.

That being said RGIII will get it together. He rushed himself back too early but he's going to be elite when he's finally healthy. I wouldn't bet against him but everyone will continue to bash him. He'll have a terrific season next year and they'll jump back on the bandwagon.
It's pretty easy to praise Cam now that he's winning. It was much harder to rank Newton ahead of the other QB's when they were getting the job done and he wasn't.

No one is questioning his physical talents. They have never been a question (Newton is probably the most physically gifted QB to ever play in the NFL, unless you prefer a smaller faster QB like Vick). The question has always been wins, and he struggled with that until this year (and this year isn't even over yet).
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Old 11-26-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I agree with some of what's been said in this thread. A lot I don't.

All things being equal, Cam has a better NFL body than RG3 and RG3 hasn't yet proven he has a better cerebral game than Cam.
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Old 11-26-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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It's like choosing between hamburgers and hotdogs.



Wake me when we get to pork loin and the T-bones.
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Old 11-26-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Hamburgers and hotdogs taste GOOD.
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:01 PM    (permalink
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I still prefer RG3 as a passer. I think with a full training camp in a more standard offense, he'll be ok. It's been a tough season all around and I'm willing to give him a pass. I haven't watched every Panthers game but Cam's still making more conversions with his legs that I would like, though he has been better at patiently getting though his progressions.
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Not sure what part of passing Griffin is good at. He doesn't see the whole field very well and holds onto the ball too long. His accuracy is streaky but mostly has been bad in early parts of games.

I'm all for getting him totally healthy but he's hasn't shown a willingness to protect himself out there. My guess is a year from now he'll still be pretty much the same QB.
Purely throwing the football, Griffin is superior to Cam. He's more accurate and throws a much better deep ball. Cam misses high a lot and doesn't take as many shots deep.

But right now I'd obviously rather have Cam. The thing about Cam's rushing success is that it's absolutely sustainable. The man is a tank. And he's usually pretty smart about going out of bounds/not really running unless he HAS to. When you look at Cam's passing stats, they simply aren't that impressive. But that's unfair to his game and how they want to use him - part of the package is his running ability. I think the key with Cam isn't that he's got the upside to become a 68% comp. passer. It's that we know he has the capability to sit in the pocket and deliver a strike on 3rd-and-7 OR score from the gun on a designed run on 3rd-and-goal from the 4. There's no one like him.

RGIII has plenty of issues but I actually buy the narrative that the lack of an offseason really hurt him.

He still has all the potential in the world but there are definitely some problems between him and the coaching staff right now. That much is evident.

But it's also not fair to judge him based on last night. The Niners dared them to run, they were outmatched physically, the idiot receivers screwed up what should have been the first TD, the DB made a briliant play on the beautiful bomb to Robinson, the quick screen game (Which was schematically the right idea against soft outside corners) was destroyed because of how amazing the Niners' backers are.

And RGIII isn't moving like RGIII from last year. That's expected.

Like I said, the Niners game was just a ridiculously tough scenario for him. I wouldn't be surprised to see him step his game up down the stretch against easier defenses.
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Old 11-26-2013, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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He was sacked 4 times in each of his last two games against the Eagles and Vikings. Quit trying to stick up for him. Right now he's terrible.
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Old 11-27-2013, 05:31 AM    (permalink
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I think a lot of this comes down to the different offenses either progressing or stagnating. I mentioned ad nasueum last year that the read option could be a very effective tool in an offensive system but in the long term it could not be consistently successful as the main staple of an offense and I think we are seeing that this year.

Both Cam Newton and Russell Wilson still offer the threat of running be it on designed QB keepers, read option keepers or when plays break down. However their respective offenses are very much based on a balanced attack between run and pass and both guys are asked to be competent passers (Wilson is clearly more than just competent though).

The Redskins on the other hand has not developed enough from last year. RG3 is still being asked to be successful with half field reads. I think if the Redskins commit to developing RG3 as a passer and he gets healthy he can become a terrific QB, but right now it seems as though they are either unwilling to do this or RG3 is not taking the coaching
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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Purely throwing the football, Griffin is superior to Cam. He's more accurate and throws a much better deep ball. Cam misses high a lot and doesn't take as many shots deep.
Is that so?

Too bad the cold, hard, empirical data suggests otherwise.

http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart...nfl-1469917039
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:26 PM    (permalink
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It's easy to pick Cam right now, but it is foolish to write off Griffin. Griffin is clearly not healthy and is struggling on top of that. He probably be fine in the long run as long as he gets his situation in order. That Washington situation might turn toxic in a hurry if they aren't careful.

I think Cam is looking better but I give a lot of credit to the defense. They are playing lights out and keeping then in games. Cam also has done great to complement them and not turn it over. He doesn't need to be superman every game.
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Old 12-01-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Cam's start to his NFL career has been pretty ridiculous. I think you have to nitpick to find much fault in his game, which at this point is only that he isn't accurate on all of his throws. He's still always completed 60% of his passes, and considering how dominant he has been for 3 years now is hard to take very many guys over him, including Andrew Luck. He's shown ability to be a 4000 yard passer with 20 TD's and limiting interceptions, he's shown the ability to run for 700+ yards a season and he does it smart. He knows when to run, when to slide, and it never looks as forced as it does with RGIII.


If you fix any of Cam's faults that he may have he'd literally be a perfect player and eventually in the Hall of Fame, he's still a very young player who has a ton of room to get better but the start he's had, and how good he has been so early has been a big surprise. This year he's got a chance to show off his playoff resume.


I still believe in RGIII, he's not Cam Newton but it's not like that's a slight. He needs a full off-season in an offense where he's not rehabbing. He needs to work on his mechanics, and his timing with his WR's. I still think he plays too reckless and that'll be the downfall of him more so then his ability to play QB. He runs into defenders like Adrian Peterson, he still hasn't learned when to throw it away, when to slide, he baits people into tackling him on the sideline, he'll spend too much of his career rehabbing when he could be working on progressing.
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Old 12-01-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Whoops. Wrong thread.
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Old 12-02-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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Cam's accuracy is worse than his numbers because when he doesn't have something open he holds onto the ball and scrambles or gets sacked....but, that's really irrelevant because his scrambling ability isn't going to vanish overnight like it will for RG3-9 and his toothpick leg.
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Old 12-02-2013, 11:51 AM    (permalink
FUNBUNCHER
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Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
Cam's accuracy is worse than his numbers because when he doesn't have something open he holds onto the ball and scrambles or gets sacked....but, that's really irrelevant because his scrambling ability isn't going to vanish overnight like it will for RG3-9 and his toothpick leg.

RG3 could lose two-tenths of second off his 40 and he's still among the fastest QBs in the league.

If RG3 is healthy enough to play, he's always going to be healthy enough to scramble.

The problem is he'll never have Newton's physique or his ability to absorb the hits that inevitably happen when a QB breaks the LOS.

Last night RG3 rushed for almost 90 yards and much of that was Griffin breaking contain and dashing for the sideline untouched. Easy yards and he could conceivably do that for the next 5-7 years.

When RG3 scrambles like a QUARTERBACK, instead of a tailback, he's a more efficient runner.
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Old 12-02-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Since week 11 2012 (when the team got hot):

Newton has 39 Total TDs and 14 INTs with a record of 14-4


All that with little run support and a decent cast of receivers.


Since the defense started playing well he's actually started managing the games and taking over, like vs the Pats/Dolphins, when he needs to.


Yea, the defense is great, but Newton is the offensive reason they're winning.
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Old 12-03-2013, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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Cam Newton hands down.
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Old 12-04-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Last year I said I'd take Cam Newton over any young QB not named Andrew Luck and I struggled with picking Luck over him.

Luck has clearly distanced himself from the pack. Cam Newton is and always has been better than Griffin, Kap & Wilson. You put him on the Niners the past two years and they are going for their third straight Super Bowl right now.

Couldn't believe he was being exclusively ranked behind those three when ESPN were pumping Kap, RGIII & Wilson at the end of last year.
I don't have a problem with you saying Luck is the best of the group. BUT to say that Cam is better than Wilson I find hard to keep my mouth shut.

Wilson is 22-7 tied for first in wins through first 29 games and 14-0 at home. Wilson has 48 Td passes ( 4th all time in first two seasons ) to only 16 ints. Add 945 yards on the ground and 5 Td's. He's the best on the move thrower in the NFL.

Not saying Cam isn't good cause he is. But the whole " Cam Newton is and always has been better than Griffin, Kap & Wilson. " is a little much for me.
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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Luck is my clear favorite of the pack, but everyone is ignoring his struggles. He hasn't been lights out, he's had his moments where he's been bad.

Having that said, he plays behind a horrid OL and has little to no weapons, and plays in a scheme that's designed for power running with no OL or RB to do it with.

He's in a bad situation basically. But he's Andrew Luck so he still makes it work.

But let's not ignore his tape. He's had some bad games still.
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