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Old 12-05-2013, 09:43 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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How many were actually legit NFL talents? Alex Smith is the only one, and after the circus that was his offense in San Francisco until Harbaugh showed up he's finally decent. Tebow was never gonna be a guy who throws the ball in the NFL. Omar Jacobs and Josh Harris were athletic MAC QBs who weren't drafted high.
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Old 12-05-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Staying another year playing for Urban Meyer won't do Miller a damn bit of good as far as developing his game for the pros.

If he stays to get his degree, fine. Otherwise Miller is best served to enter the draft and make a team's final 53.
Your right, learning to make better reads regardless of system, generally maturing and working on his short to intermediate game probably won't do him a damn bit of good when it comes to the NFL.

Furthermore, I was saying that IMO he could be a first round pick if he stays; not just make the cut on someones roster.

If he left after this year, NC or not, I think he is at best a late round pick and would likely need to make a position switch. If he waits he has at least a shot of playing QB in the NFL and may even be an early round pick.

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You can also get hurt. If you don't have much upside by staying, GTFO and learn what you will be doing for a career while also making money.
The thing is that he does have upside and continues to make strides every year he has played in college.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.

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Old 12-05-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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How many were actually legit NFL talents? Alex Smith is the only one, and after the circus that was his offense in San Francisco until Harbaugh showed up he's finally decent. Tebow was never gonna be a guy who throws the ball in the NFL. Omar Jacobs and Josh Harris were athletic MAC QBs who weren't drafted high.
Tebow, Alex Smith and Omar Jacobs all had the physical tools to play in the NFL when they arrived in college.

You'd like to think their college coaches had the vision and talent to develop their overall games to succeed at the next level.

A good HC takes a 19 year old Tebow aside and lets him know his throwing motion needs to change and reps him constantly to improve it. It's inexcusable IMO that Meyer QBs can't go through progressions and seriously struggle to read defenses.

Well, not inexcusable. Meyer develops QBs to run HIS offense.
The problem is that offense absolutely destroys QBs for the next level.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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That all might be true, but still the point remains there are plenty of things he can get better at to improve his draft stock, which is the main reason he needs another year at Ohio State - and those things can be improved even in Meyer's offense. Believe it or not they do and did try to improve Tebow's mechanics and Miller's as well and have had success to a degree. Throwing motions if they are as bad as Tebow's was it's something that goes back a long long way and is hard if not impossible to completely change.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Meyer as far as I know never really tried to alter Tebow's throwing motion until before his senior year.

Braxton will only improve his game if he takes steps on his own to do so this offseason, it won't happen from strictly coaching at OSU.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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They made some pretty big changes to Miller's mechanics after his freshman and sophomore years. Tebow I know they worked on his delivery after his freshman year too because ESPN did some stupid segment on it. The stuff Braxton needs to work on are mostly mental, stuff mostly the staff have been working on him with that he's getting better at. As raw as he was as a passer, he's the type of guy who needs 4 years of college.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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The ACL will not drop Mett off any boards. That's ridiculous thinking.
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Old 12-05-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Braxton will only improve his game if he takes steps on his own to do so this offseason, it won't happen from strictly coaching at OSU.
I wish I could remember his name but he does work with the same QB "guru" during the offseason that Manziel and Boyd among others use.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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Meyer as far as I know never really tried to alter Tebow's throwing motion until before his senior year.

Braxton will only improve his game if he takes steps on his own to do so this offseason, it won't happen from strictly coaching at OSU.
I fully agree with you Funbuncher, college HC's aren't in the business of developing players for the next level, they only want to make sure they can deliver at the college level. Of course, they want to show other prospects that their coaching will help them get drafted, so they will give them some direction but that is much lower on their priority list. I believe you are arguing with some Ohio St. fans who have a vested interest in having Miller return to school other than his development as a pro prospect.

A promising prospect can learn far more in one year under pro coaching, whose main concern is his development as a pro than he would ever learn in 4 years of college coaching. The college game visa vi the pro game, are apples and oranges.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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Is there any word on what Hundley is doing? I'd have him ranked as my 2nd QB in this class
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Is there any word on what Hundley is doing? I'd have him ranked as my 2nd QB in this class
You never really know what their final decision is anyways until the college season is fully over. A lot of prospects will say they are returning to get the press off their backs then change their minds once the season ends.

If I was a betting man, I'd say he will stay for 1 more year.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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A promising prospect can learn far more in one year under pro coaching, whose main concern is his development as a pro than he would ever learn in 4 years of college coaching. The college game visa vi the pro game, are apples and oranges.
Ah, but like I said, it's not about his development, it's about draft position and paycheck. If a guy is gonna be a top 5 pick, no matter how raw he is, by all means go to the NFL and get paid sooner than later and start learning under NFL coaching. Miller isn't gonna be that though. He needs another year to improve his draft stock. It would be dumb to cash in now, he has too much to learn and his stock can really improve with a fine senior year.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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A promising prospect can learn far more in one year under pro coaching, whose main concern is his development as a pro than he would ever learn in 4 years of college coaching. The college game visa vi the pro game, are apples and oranges.
Why then do we not allow players to go directly to the NFL? It's because they aren't ready for the pro game and need time to progress at the college level. Braxton Miller has improved every year he has played at Ohio State; it isn't crazy to believe that he still has room for improvement and will continue to do so should he stay.

However, there are plenty of documented cases where a player has left for the pro game too early for one reason or another (Star power from winning a NC, money, worrying about who is declaring this year or next year etc.) and has fallen flat on their face when they get to the pro level.

Other than Shy wanting him to play for Arizona, this theory that he will somehow make a better pro player by leaving early makes no sense whatsoever.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:41 AM    (permalink
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Ah, but like I said, it's not about his development, it's about draft position and paycheck. If a guy is gonna be a top 5 pick, no matter how raw he is, by all means go to the NFL and get paid sooner than later and start learning under NFL coaching. Miller isn't gonna be that though. He needs another year to improve his draft stock. It would be dumb to cash in now, he has too much to learn and his stock can really improve with a fine senior year.
I agree, but I seriously doubt his draft stock will ever be very high, he is just a very solid college QB with little pro potential, IMO anyways. I doubt he will improve his draft status a whole lot by returning to school, and he has already experienced being injured which may weigh on his mind and cause him to declare. Remember, while returning to school should perhaps improve your draft status, it can also lead to injury where you just are no longer worth drafting and there is zero pay cheques, a scenario that potential agents are sure to point out..
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Old 12-05-2013, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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The ACL will not drop Mett off any boards. That's ridiculous thinking.
So he's still a First Rounder to you?
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Why then do we not allow players to go directly to the NFL? It's because they aren't ready for the pro game and need time to progress at the college level. Braxton Miller has improved every year he has played at Ohio State; it isn't crazy to believe that he still has room for improvement and will continue to do so should he stay.

However, there are plenty of documented cases where a player has left for the pro game too early for one reason or another (Star power from winning a NC, money, worrying about who is declaring this year or next year etc.) and has fallen flat on their face when they get to the pro level.

Other than Shy wanting him to play for Arizona, this theory that he will somehow make a better pro player by leaving early makes no sense whatsoever.
The NFL simply doesn't want to take on college football in a war over players, they have a system in place where the colleges bare all the costs for development and they don't want to do anything that would destroy their cheap source of labour.

This is the reason why the NBA decided to force high school students to play at least 1 year of college ball, to re-establish their feeder system for talent by making peace with the NCAA.

I think it was pretty obvious that the top high school basketball players could make the jump directly to pro ball with quite an acceptable rate of success and failure.

What the colleges provide mostly is the weight training and conditioning needed to become a solid pro at a lot of positions. Many, many high school players add 20-30 lbs of, hopefully from a pro prospective, muscle.
Even 30 years ago, you used to hear pro coaches say that they would prefer to get their kids a lot earlier before they learned some of the bad habits used by college coaches and train them for the pro game right from the start, which is how it is done in European sports.

College coaches have one priority, to win college football games, not to train college players on how to be pros . That is why the transition at most positions from college to pro, is so immense.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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So he's still a First Rounder to you?
I'm an LSU fan and I still don't know if he was ever a first rounder to be honest. I always saw him as a 2-3 round guy. He's not a guy who uses his legs so it won't hurt his stock as say a Johnny Football. It's like if Peyton tore his ACL coming out. Is he no longer a first rounder?
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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I'm an LSU fan and I still don't know if he was ever a first rounder to be honest. I always saw him as a 2-3 round guy. He's not a guy who uses his legs so it won't hurt his stock as say a Johnny Football. It's like if Peyton tore his ACL coming out. Is he no longer a first rounder?
Agree. If he was a first rounder it was just barely. He's got the arm but zero mobility and who knows what's upstairs. Not sure he's any better of a prospect than Ryan Mallett.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
Agree. If he was a first rounder it was just barely. He's got the arm but zero mobility and who knows what's upstairs. Not sure he's any better of a prospect than Ryan Mallett.
he can read a defense with the best of them. he literally has ZERO pocket awareness though.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
Sloopy
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The NFL simply doesn't want to take on college football in a war over players, they have a system in place where the colleges bare all the costs for development and they don't want to do anything that would destroy their cheap source of labour.

This is the reason why the NBA decided to force high school students to play at least 1 year of college ball, to re-establish their feeder system for talent by making peace with the NCAA.

I think it was pretty obvious that the top high school basketball players could make the jump directly to pro ball with quite an acceptable rate of success and failure.

What the colleges provide mostly is the weight training and conditioning needed to become a solid pro at a lot of positions. Many, many high school players add 20-30 lbs of, hopefully from a pro prospective, muscle.
Even 30 years ago, you used to hear pro coaches say that they would prefer to get their kids a lot earlier before they learned some of the bad habits used by college coaches and train them for the pro game right from the start, which is how it is done in European sports.

College coaches have one priority, to win college football games, not to train college players on how to be pros . That is why the transition at most positions from college to pro, is so immense.
To start, Football is different than every one of those sports you listed. Going from a high school playbook to a pro playbook alone is a huge barrier preventing the jump from high school straight to the pros; not to mention a laundry list of other reasons.

Furthermore, you've gone from Braxton doesn't need to stay another year and develop to no one needs to stay in college to develop because they were ready when they graduated high school. However, we know this to both be ridiculous and untrue. Source: all the players who have left for the pros too early and ended up a bust.

Please go back to your argument that Urban Meyer can't do anything more for him. At least it makes more sense.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 12-05-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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The biggest reasons guys don't jump from high school to the pros is because they aren't physically ready or mature enough. College let's their bodies grow, physically trains them and weeds out a lot of immature talent kids. From a football skills point of view being on an NFL team develops you way faster than a college ever could. Being on an NFL team would vastly improve a player over a college team, but the NFL only has so much roster space and time to develop guys.
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Old 12-06-2013, 06:15 AM    (permalink
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The biggest reasons guys don't jump from high school to the pros is because they aren't physically ready or mature enough. College let's their bodies grow, physically trains them and weeds out a lot of immature talent kids. From a football skills point of view being on an NFL team develops you way faster than a college ever could. Being on an NFL team would vastly improve a player over a college team, but the NFL only has so much roster space and time to develop guys.
If your point is that a kid could go from high school to the pros if he was allowed to develop physically, mentally and skill-wise for 5-6 years on a bench then you are technically correct. However, that isn't the case, players aren't generally allowed to sit on a roster to develop for that much time, and that is why we have the college system.

Furthermore, I'm not quite sure what this has to do with Braxton Miller needing to stay another year or not. In the actual current system of player development (going to college for at least three years and then being given a brief window in the NFL to prove yourself); Braxton leaving for the pros, at this point in his development, would be a huge mistake career-wise.
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:41 AM    (permalink
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I think this class is similar to last years, except Bridgewater is considered a legit top 5/10 prospect where last year's class had none.
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Old 12-07-2013, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Who questions Miller's arm now?
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:47 PM    (permalink
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Nobody really ever questioned his arm strength.
It's his overall QB game that's not ready for the pros.
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