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Old 12-11-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Originally Posted by Jomoz View Post
The problem with MLBs is that they do very little to affect the opposing passing game.

The #1 goal in the NFL on defense should be to slow down the opposing quarterback. MLBs can only help in that regard by either a.) blitzing or b.) covering RBs/TEs in the flat.

Bowman does both pretty well and Kuechly does the latter well, but that contribution still pales in comparison to a DE or DT that can rush the passer on every single passing snap and thus affect the passing game every single time.
Even the best pass rushers usually only tangibly effect the passing game 3-4 times a game. I can see an argument for the value of a pass rusher vs. a linebacker, but I don't think consistency of impact is a good argument.
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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I'll give a whole starting lineup (minus o-line). Although this is just my "best young players list", since some of them are already well-known.

QB- Nick Foles, Eagles
RB- Giovani Bernard, Bengals
RB- Andre Ellington, Cardinals
WR-Josh Gordon, Browns
WR- Eric Decker, Broncos (swoon)
WR-Alshon Jeffrey, Bears
TE-Jordan Reed, Redskins

DE- Oliver Vernon, Dolphins
DE- Chandler Jones, Patriots
DT- Marcel Dareus, Bills
DT- Dontari Poe, Chiefs
LB- Kiko Alonso, Bills
LB- Lavonte David, Bucs
LB- Luke Kuechly, Panthers
CB- Alterraun Verner, Titans
CB- Joe Haden, Browns
S- Eric Berry, Chiefs
S- Earl Thomas, Seahawks
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Marcel Dareus?!
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Old 12-11-2013, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Hell yeah Marcel Dareus. 7 sacks already this year and he's still just 23.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Wow I didn't know that. I remember the mediocre Marcell Dareus from last year who was benched at times.

Maybe the light is coming on.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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The Bills have a really good defensive line this year but nobody has noticed because...well...Bills.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jomoz View Post
The problem with MLBs is that they do very little to affect the opposing passing game.
Stopping the run is a really good way to affect the passing game. It's hard to throw on 3rd and 10.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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I would disagree with the notion that they do little to stop the passing game too. Tampa is a staple play of every team and if your MIKE can't cover the seam you're kind of screwed.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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I'm so glad to hear that. I was a HUGE Jimmy Smith fan in the draft. I felt we should have taken him over Prince.

Prince has been great in his own right, but he's not shut down. He's very good, but that seems to be his ceiling. Jimmy's jam at the LOS is pure sex.
Prince does a pretty great job of wiping out his man. He's not at the level Webster was at at his peak, but he's the type of smart kid I expect to continually improve until his body falls apart later in his career. I like smith's potential a lot to, but Prince is just a C-Web clone, and what better way to replace web than with Web 2.0, minus the pre-spags suckage.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Prince does a pretty great job of wiping out his man. He's not at the level Webster was at at his peak, but he's the type of smart kid I expect to continually improve until his body falls apart later in his career. I like smith's potential a lot to, but Prince is just a C-Web clone, and what better way to replace web than with Web 2.0, minus the pre-spags suckage.
I think Prince's ceiling is very good #2 CB. I would love to pair him up with another lockdown CB. I don't trust his recovery speed or hips enough to call him a lockdown CB.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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I'll give a whole starting lineup (minus o-line). Although this is just my "best young players list", since some of them are already well-known.

QB- Nick Foles, Eagles
RB- Giovani Bernard, Bengals
RB- Andre Ellington, Cardinals
WR-Josh Gordon, Browns
WR- Eric Decker, Broncos (swoon)
WR-Alshon Jeffrey, Bears
TE-Jordan Reed, Redskins

DE- Oliver Vernon, Dolphins
DE- Chandler Jones, Patriots
DT- Marcel Dareus, Bills
DT- Dontari Poe, Chiefs
LB- Kiko Alonso, Bills
LB- Lavonte David, Bucs
LB- Luke Kuechly, Panthers
CB- Alterraun Verner, Titans
CB- Joe Haden, Browns
S- Eric Berry, Chiefs
S- Earl Thomas, Seahawks
I'll add a few O-linemen for kicks:

Tyron Smith, Dallas
Kyle Long, Chicago
Larry Warford, Detroit
Eric Fisher, KC
Matt Khalil, Minnesota
Travis Frederick, Dallas
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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The problem with MLBs is that they do very little to affect the opposing passing game.

The #1 goal in the NFL on defense should be to slow down the opposing quarterback. MLBs can only help in that regard by either a.) blitzing or b.) covering RBs/TEs in the flat.

Bowman does both pretty well and Kuechly does the latter well, but that contribution still pales in comparison to a DE or DT that can rush the passer on every single passing snap and thus affect the passing game every single time.
You are totally ignoring the impact LBs have on covering TEs and the middle of the field. The great LBs have a big impact on the short to intermediate passing game over the middle that a lot of teams rely on. Not that I don't agree with taking the star dl over the star LB, but those are some pretty huge aspects of modern LB play that you just sorta washed over.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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I'll add a few O-linemen for kicks:

Tyron Smith, Dallas
Kyle Long, Chicago
Larry Warford, Detroit
Eric Fisher, KC
Matt Khalil, Minnesota
Travis Frederick, Dallas
Tyron Smith needs to start getting some love. Dude is an absolute beast.

I want to say Eric Reid, Tyronn Matheaui (after the ACL I don't know now), and Kenny Vaccaro.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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Well that really depends on how you want to look at it. A stud DE may be able to disrupt the passing game on his own but the flexibility a top LB gives you is unmatched.

The 49ers can play base defense the vast majority of the game because their LBs can attack downhill and play coverage. Being able to play base means teams can't attack you from a schematic point of view on a play by play basis.

Multiple TE offenses have become more prevalent because when a team lines up in 12 formation most teams will play base defense. If your TEs are good and athletic enough that is a matchup advantage in the passing game. On the other hand, if you counter with nickle or dime they can run power against you.

If you can line up to defend the power running game while still having athletic LBs to cover TEs and RBs then that offers your defense far more than a stud DE IMO
While I agree with a lot of this a great DL can allow you to play a nickel and not get scorched in the run game. Basically turning that nickel into your base like the giants did in their last SB run, where in lieu of a third LB we used a third safety to give us that advantage against the passing game without getting destroyed up front.

So great dl let you be more versatile to mask weaknesses behind them better than great lbs ability cover for inferior talent in front of them. And in a league where even the best teams have weaknesses, I value the guys who let me cover more weaknesses.
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Old 12-11-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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I think Prince's ceiling is very good #2 CB. I would love to pair him up with another lockdown CB. I don't trust his recovery speed or hips enough to call him a lockdown CB.
I don't watch enough all-22 to judge his hips very well, but his speed is no worse than webs' was. And web was just fine as a high end, if not lockdown, #1. If we could snag the next Haden to be our #1 over prince that would be awesome, but if we can just get a good #2 to pair with him that'd work to.

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Wow I didn't know that. I remember the mediocre Marcell Dareus from last year who was benched at times.

Maybe the light is coming on.
Oh Dareus is an absolute monster this year. Kiko's been awesome, but Dareus is the star of that buffalo d.
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Old 12-11-2013, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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I still can't believe some of the numbers Josh Gordon has put up with Brandon Weeden throwing to him. Look at the Jacksonville game:

Weeden to Gordon: 10/15 (66.7%), 261 yards, 17.40 ypa, 2 TD, 0 INT
Weeden to everyone else: 14/25 (56.0%), 109 yards, 4.36 ypa, 1 TD, 2 INT
I'm not that surprised, as Weeden isn't so bad at amassing yards : he's got a more than decent arm and can make good throws. He just makes horrible decisions over and over again, and he's a turnover waiting to happen.
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I'd throw Harrison Smith in to the discussion.
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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I'd throw Harrison Smith in to the discussion.
YES. Very much so. Excellent call. Harrison Smith is a beast.
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-11-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
SuperMcGee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf (Rosebud) View Post
Oh Dareus is an absolute monster this year. Kiko's been awesome, but Dareus is the star of that buffalo d.
This is accurate. The d-line has been pretty good, as bf51 mentioned. Lead the league in sacks, three other players have at least as many as Dareus' 7, though I don't think Jerry Hughes is quite on the level of Mario/Kyle/Dareus.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
killxswitch
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Originally Posted by SuperMcGee View Post
This is accurate. The d-line has been pretty good, as bf51 mentioned. Lead the league in sacks, three other players have at least as many as Dareus' 7, though I don't think Jerry Hughes is quite on the level of Mario/Kyle/Dareus.
It really pisses me off to see Hughes succeeding in Buffalo. He was hot garbage in Indy.
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Old 12-11-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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He could just be another Ray Edwards, a guy who flourishes statistically next to 2 great DTs and a great DE.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:46 PM    (permalink
lod01
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lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.lod01 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Kirk Cousins if he can escape Washington. Best landing spot: Cleveland.

Da'Rick Rogers. The guy is phenomenal. The only thing that takes him down is the same thing that would take down Gordon.
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Old 12-11-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
vidae
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Eric Fisher started off poorly but he's been a beast the last few weeks. Really happy with the selection.
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