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Old 12-17-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
mqtirishfan
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Originally Posted by Jomoz View Post

It's no coincidence that most of the successful NFL QBs come from either mid-sized, non-football-powerhouse schools (Steve Young, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Jon Elway, Warren Moon, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc) or small schools in terms of their football programs (Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, etc)
Wait, what? It's not like these QBs came from some middling schools that nobody ever associates with football. Hell, Purdue and BYU have historically solid programs.

Also, you cherry-picked (poorly) a list of the greatest QBs to fit your point. What about Montana, Brady, Aikman, Starr, Tarkenton, Kelly?

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Old 12-17-2013, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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It's really close and obviously the sample size is small for Winston, so its hard to say for sure he is going to have a better grade coming out than Luck at this point. If he improves (scary thought) next year, I don't see how there could be any debate on which is the better prospect coming out.

Also the "character concern" and "big school" arguments are completely ridiculous. Watch the kid play, watch his decision making and his arm and his accuracy, don't judge the player based on some unfounded rumors he wasn't even charged for and some absurd theory that QBs from powerhouse schools can't be elite NFL QBs even though 2 of the best in the game right now went to Tennessee and Michigan (and yes Tennessee was a powerhouse in the late 90s, they've fallen off the map recently but thats not when Peyton went there did he?).
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Old 12-17-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DcmRulz View Post
I agree with this. Manziel in his follow up year was solid, but not quite the same JFF that took the world by storm.

Perhaps Jameis might have a bit more trouble with teams that now know their offense and can plan for it, and a little less of a talent gap from people coming in/growing up/leaving.
It isn't like FSU runs some gimmick offense. It's as pro style as you'll find anywhere in America. He makes the right reads at the line to adjust to what the defense is doing.
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Old 12-17-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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It's Andrew Luck and I highly doubt any NFL team would view it as close.

Luck was way, way more experienced by the time he finished his college career and had done things like play in close games and lead a comeback vs teams with comparable talent. Jameis has a much shorter resume and has been surrounded by superior talent is every single college game he's played. Fans may be excited by Winston's talent and early success, but Luck is very talented while also being way more seasoned and proven. This isn't a fair question at this point.
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Old 12-17-2013, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Here's some facts; two semen samples were found in this girl's panties. Obviously one belonged to Jameis, but the victim refused(!!!) to tell authorities to whom the 2nd sample belonged. Turns out the 2nd deposit came from the victim's BF.

I don't know exactly what happened, but I have a hard time believing Jameis forced himself on this girl.

But I do know sometimes crazy chicks will make up wild accusations when they've been caught cheating.

Even her attorney is an oddball. She made this inference her client was knocked out with Rohipnol, yet somehow she was quite certain Jameis was her rapist. There was no evidence the girl was given Rohipnol.


Remember, the NFL is a business foremost.
Winston was accused, but never charged. That's really all most NFL GMs care about, unless you believe the kid is a closet serial rapist.
Just the fact that he was linked to sexual assault accusations is a red flag. I'm sorry, it matters. Would Andrew Luck ever be linked to rape accusations? Would Peyton Manning? I think not.

I don't want my QB, the face of my franchise and the player I'm likely going to be paying $15+ million a year to, to be even LINKED at any point to something like rape accusations.

Whether it happened or not, the fact that there was a substantial enough link to the accusation of rape is a serious downgrade in terms of the QB's character. And for the QB position, character matters more than it does for every other position.

Being involved in things like this shows a serious lack of foresight and maturity. These are critical traits for a QB.

Add that to the fact that Winston plays on a stacked team which may amplify his production, and I wouldn't touch this guy higher than the late 2nd round.

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Old 12-17-2013, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Jameis has great arm strength, very good mobility, and has turned out to be a great college QB.

There are some of the things that jump out at me that he is going to need to fix for the next level.

He is prone to squeezing balls into tight holes. While he can get away with that in Tallahassee, I doubt if it flies in the NFL. He also has a strong tendency to force it deep, which has worked so far as no one can stop it, but I think it will be a huge liability at the next level, ala Roethlisberger.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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Just the fact that he was linked to sexual assault accusations is a red flag. I'm sorry, it matters. Would Andrew Luck ever be linked to rape accusations? Would Peyton Manning? I think not.

I don't want my QB, the face of my franchise and the player I'm likely going to be paying $15+ million a year to, to be even LINKED at any point to something like rape accusations.

Whether it happened or not, the fact that there was a substantial enough link to the accusation of rape is a serious downgrade in terms of the QB's character. And for the QB position, character matters more than it does for every other position.

Being involved in things like this shows a serious lack of foresight and maturity. These are critical traits for a QB.

Add that to the fact that Winston plays on a stacked team which may amplify his production, and I wouldn't touch this guy higher than the late 2nd round.
IF you were an NFL GM, there's no way this would be your personal philosophy without interviewing the guy.

BTW if you get a chance take a look at how many future pros Peyton Manning had playing with him on offense at Tennessee. The same team that won a NC the year after he graduated.

Effective scouting means being able to tell the difference among the Ken Dorseys, Peyton Mannings, AJ McCarrons and Jameis Winstons of the college football world.

Mark Sanchez was linked to a rape allegation too. These kinds of things really don't affect a player's stock IF they are NEVER charged, or found GUILTY.

Jameis is 2 for 2 on that count.

Late 2nd round??lol Be serious man.

Even athletes deserve the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

I made that same mistake in the Duke rape case.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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I'd be wary of QBs who play for big-time programs and powerhouse teams. QBs who come from national title teams in college are often a recipe for failure in the NFL.

The successful QB in the NFL is one who had to earn everything on his own in college - the QB who had to take a bad team and make it competitive almost entirely on his own.

A QB like Winston has so much talent around him and plays so often with a big lead due to FSU's elite defense that his stats and his successful plays are often a mirage. Not to mention - he is the king of the FSU program and feels incredibly entitled. He hasn't had to work for any of this success.

It's no coincidence that most of the successful NFL QBs come from either mid-sized, non-football-powerhouse schools (Steve Young, Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Jon Elway, Warren Moon, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, etc) or small schools in terms of their football programs (Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Phillip Rivers, Tony Romo, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan, etc) and often from teams that were not stacked with talent. And it's also no coincidence that QBs drafted from big programs who were surrounded by loads of talent (Mark Sanchez, Colt McCoy, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Danny Weurfal, Joey Harrington, Vinny Testaverde, etc) often fail in the NFL.
wut?

More than half of those guys come from football factories. Tennessee in particular is probably one of the top 5 programs sending talent into the NFL....
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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He is prone to squeezing balls into tight holes. While he can get away with that in Tallahassee, I doubt if it flies in the NFL. He also has a strong tendency to force it deep, which has worked so far as no one can stop it, but I think it will be a huge liability at the next level, ala Roethlisberger.
That's not really a knock, at all. It's actually a positive considering how ridiculously accurate he is.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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I'm an unabashed Luck homer, so I clearly think Luck is/was a considerably better prospect. It's just too soon to talk about Winston as a prospect. Let's see him handle his success and see if any character concerns crop up. Luck was a once in 10/15 years prospect so I'm not keen to jump on the new thing so quickly. As many have said Winston had the obviously superior team in pretty much all games they played this year. They should have won and he did so he deserves credit for that.

They are very comparable athletically. Winston has better arm strength but Luck isn't really lacking. Luck is a dork and is pretty spotless with character concerns. Luck also demonstrated great progression reading.

Luck was second to no one in football knowledge. He could run an offense like Peyton Manning. He could get 3 plays called and pick what he wanted. They could have 250-300 offensive plays any given week because he was able to absorb as much as they the coaching staff could throw at him during the week.

Winston is a great prospect and is easily the #1 player going into next year, but people are forgetting how good of a prospect Luck was. Tools weren't what made Luck special.


Also let's not get into the details of the sexual assault case. Massnole can only bring us all down further.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:38 AM    (permalink
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It's Andrew Luck and I highly doubt any NFL team would view it as close.

Luck was way, way more experienced by the time he finished his college career and had done things like play in close games and lead a comeback vs teams with comparable talent. Jameis has a much shorter resume and has been surrounded by superior talent is every single college game he's played. Fans may be excited by Winston's talent and early success, but Luck is very talented while also being way more seasoned and proven. This isn't a fair question at this point.
I disagree. I think that simply based on him having a ton of potential to become even better. On top of that having shown poise during his issue with the law and leadership in a team which played in the National Title right when he entered would attract AT LEAST some teams into preferring Jameis over Luck.

Btw, Luck was also projected to be a top overall pick before his last year in college, so it's clear that a great QB can be a top prospect even with 2 years of experience.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:38 AM    (permalink
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I think he has the potential to reach Luck as a prospect. I don't think he could really exceed Luck in a provable way. Indianapolis showed Peyton Manning the door for Andrew Luck. Think about that.
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:02 AM    (permalink
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Why don't we wait til Winston performs next year when teams have film , and how he handles the hype.
lets not act as thou this is game 4 of the season. he has 11 or 12 games of film out there for coaches to dissect.
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Old 12-18-2013, 07:06 AM    (permalink
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as far as comparing, i think he is better then Luck. comparing the two at this level, Winston is the better prospect following their redshirt Freshman year.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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He is prone to squeezing balls into tight holes. While he can get away with that in Tallahassee, I doubt if it flies in the NFL. He also has a strong tendency to force it deep, which has worked so far as no one can stop it, but I think it will be a huge liability at the next level, ala Roethlisberger.
I see what you did there.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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Winston is better than Luck was as a RS freshman, and his arm is much better with similar accuracy.

FSU beat 7 bowl teams this past season. Their schedule is their schedule and the Seminoles rolled everyone they played, in no small part because of Jameis Winston.

Luck isn't exactly ripping it up in the NFL, and as pro prospects at this early point in their college careers(RS freshman), Winston is better than Luck.
7 Bowl teams mostly from the ACC means zip to me, gee, they beat Clemson and Florida in their 2 biggest games, hardly much in the way of a serious game. Basically, Florida St. played nobody who was a serious threat to beat them. Where is the meat to prove Winston can compete against a serious opponent??? There is nothing on his resume to compare the seasons Luck beat up on Pac 12 teams. It is comparing apples to oranges in terms of SOS.

Winston may yet prove he is at least the prospect Luck was or even better, but his resume doesn't prove zip to me at this point and I won't be anointing him till I see a lot more from him in big games. Now, if he beats Auburn, that will go a long way in moving Winston into the Luck conversation, but right now, all I see is a successful college QB with a beautiful arm who hasn't really been tested against anybody of any consequence and has only played 1 year. Again, where is the meat????
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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FSU's two biggest games this season were Miami and Clemson, not Florida.

Clemson is on par with any team Luck beat his last two year's at Stanford IMO.
What great defense did Luck play against at Stanford his last two seasons??


Who FSU played really doesn't factor much when grading how great a prospect Winston is.

If you want to question how strong are the Seminoles, fine.
Winston handled his business this season, and rarely played through the 4th quarter in many games.

Auburn's D won't stop Winston and Co. on offense, the problem is can the Seminoles D hold that read-option rushing attack in check??
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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Why don't we wait til Winston performs next year when teams have film , and how he handles the hype.

Agreed. Jameis gets an incomplete right now.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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7 Bowl teams mostly from the ACC means zip to me, gee, they beat Clemson and Florida in their 2 biggest games, hardly much in the way of a serious game.
Yeah a team who makes the BCS as an at large sure does suck. Florida's offense may have sucked, but in analyzing Jameis that is moot, their defense was still stellar (ranked #2 in the almighty SEC) and he absolutely torched them, he was a couple drops and a blown DPI call away from a 400+ yard day.


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Basically, Florida St. played nobody who was a serious threat to beat them. Where is the meat to prove Winston can compete against a serious opponent??? There is nothing on his resume to compare the seasons Luck beat up on Pac 12 teams. It is comparing apples to oranges in terms of SOS.
You realize the ACC produces more NFL talent than the Pac 12, right?


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Winston may yet prove he is at least the prospect Luck was or even better, but his resume doesn't prove zip to me at this point and I won't be anointing him till I see a lot more from him in big games. Now, if he beats Auburn, that will go a long way in moving Winston into the Luck conversation, but right now, all I see is a successful college QB with a beautiful arm who hasn't really been tested against anybody of any consequence and has only played 1 year. Again, where is the meat????
You realize Auburn's defense is a little below par for that FSU faced this season, right?
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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I'm waiting until Winston declares for the draft next year before I make a decision here. There's no questioning that Winston is better as a RS Freshman than Luck was but I don't think he's better now than Luck was when he declared. I need to see some progression with Winston and it absolutely would be nice to see him play in a game that is remotely competitive. I'm not going to knock him for his team crushing every team he played but I'm also not going to say that winning close games is a strength for him. In the Wake Forest game he threw for just 159 yards with an INT and Florida State won 59-3. It's just hard to give him too much credit for his team's success when you see things like that.

I think he has a slight edge on Luck from a physical standpoint but Luck was far superior mechanically and his experience 3 years of experience as a starter gives him the edge at this point. With that said there's no denying that Winston is the clear #1 pick for next year and would have been the #1 pick this year.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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IF you were an NFL GM, there's no way this would be your personal philosophy without interviewing the guy.

BTW if you get a chance take a look at how many future pros Peyton Manning had playing with him on offense at Tennessee. The same team that won a NC the year after he graduated.

Effective scouting means being able to tell the difference among the Ken Dorseys, Peyton Mannings, AJ McCarrons and Jameis Winstons of the college football world.

Mark Sanchez was linked to a rape allegation too. These kinds of things really don't affect a player's stock IF they are NEVER charged, or found GUILTY.

Jameis is 2 for 2 on that count.

Late 2nd round??lol Be serious man.

Even athletes deserve the presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

I made that same mistake in the Duke rape case.
Again, even if Winston is 100% completely vindicated in these charges, the fact that he was in the position to be accused is a red flag in itself.

I don't want my QB even in these situations to begin with. To expose yourself to these kinds of accusations, to be in that situation, is to exercise poor judgement and foresight.

It's not so much the final verdict that matters but the process that led to his predicament in the first place.


(And bringing up Mark Sanchez and rape allegations? Guess what, Mark Sanchez has shown exactly what I'm trying to point out here - poor judgement off the field leads to poor judgement on the field!)
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:21 AM    (permalink
MassNole
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Again, even if Winston is 100% completely vindicated in these charges, the fact that he was in the position to be accused is a red flag in itself.

I don't want my QB even in these situations to begin with. To expose yourself to these kinds of accusations, to be in that situation, is to exercise poor judgement and foresight.
He had a one night with a girl who made **** up after the fact. By your assertion, you want every QB to be Tim Tebow. He definitely worked out so well in the NFL I am sure they've already made his bust for Canton.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Mark Sanchez just isn't very good.

Look at Roethlisberger. Poor judgement off the field. Still a beast on it.
Next year this will be even less discussed about Winston than it is right now.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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He had a one night with a girl who made **** up after the fact. By your assertion, you want every QB to be Tim Tebow. He definitely worked out so well in the NFL I am sure they've already made his bust for Canton.
I want my QBs to be like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck. Clean-cut nerdy guys who keep their nose out of trouble and don't go putting themselves in the types of situations that would be conducive to rape allegations.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:28 AM    (permalink
MassNole
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I want my QBs to be like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck. Clean-cut nerdy guys who keep their nose out of trouble and don't go putting themselves in the types of situations that would be conducive to rape allegations.
You're just assuming they do because no one ever made false allegations. Earlier you used Warren Moon as an example, a man who was wrongly charged with Domestic Battery based off the lies of a woman.

But since you mentioned Tom Brady, I question what sort of man leaves his pregnant girlfriend the way he did.
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