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Old 12-18-2013, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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I want my QBs to be like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Andrew Luck. Clean-cut nerdy guys who keep their nose out of trouble and don't go putting themselves in the types of situations that would be conducive to rape allegations.
If the worst thing you can point out about Winston is the rape accusation, we're not even talking about his being charged or a conviction(!!), I hope for your peace of mind your favorite team isn't picking first in 2015.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:33 AM    (permalink
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You're just assuming they do because no one ever made false allegations. Earlier you used Warren Moon as an example, a man who was wrongly charged with Domestic Battery based off the lies of a woman.

But since you mentioned Tom Brady, I question what sort of man leaves his pregnant girlfriend the way he did.
Guys like Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, and Joe Flacco are the prototype QB because they are studious hard workers who keep their nose clean off the field. By definition these guys are far less prone to being in sketchy situations than someone like Jameis Winston. Winstons's activities are simply a red flag that he does not belong in the "QB is a craft" class of player who work hard and study hard. All the physical tools in the world don't matter at the QB position if you don't exercise the mental portion of the game.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Guys like Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, and Joe Flacco are the prototype QB because they are studious hard workers who keep their nose clean off the field. By definition these guys are far less prone to being in sketchy situations than someone like Jameis Winston. Winstons's activities are simply a red flag that he does not belong in the "QB is a craft" class of player who work hard and study hard. All the physical tools in the world don't matter at the QB position if you don't exercise the mental portion of the game.
So Jameis Winston has a one night stand (in a year he was REDSHIRTING mind you) and it shows he makes bad decisions. Tom Brady up and leaves a pregnant woman and that is literally no cause for concern. I can see the issue here and it has nothing to do with anything Winston was ever able to control, especially given the common characteristic of the QBs named.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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The thing with the rape allegation is that it is still a knock against him even if he's innocent and couldn't have done anything to keep himself out of the situation.

Let's hypothetically agree with MassNole and say they are completely baseless claims, the sex was 100% consensual, the girl was 100% lying and just made them up because she is crazy.

It absolutely sucks and is unlucky for Winston, but I still have that as a negative against him. Not against his character, but just a negative that this story/crazy girl is attached to him. Even if I know he is innocent and will never rape anybody, how do I know that this girl isn't going to decide to sue him or cause some other sort of distraction (that may not be Winston's fault).

With a franchise QB, you want perfection. Obviously nobody is perfect, but all other things being equal, it would have been better for Winston if these allegations never happened.

Edit: All the above being said, the allegations against him (assuming nothing else comes from them) aren't nearly a big enough knock against him to avoid taking him number 1 overall.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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I'd almost guarantee Jameis is never in another off the field incident again.
It' just not his profile.

That's why the NFL has a rookie salary cap, to 'test drive' these guys and see how they handle being in the NFL and observe what kind of game they have without being on the hook for $50 mil guaranteed for a guy who can't play.

It would be foolish for a team to pass on Winston because of a non-incident that happened in 2012.

If you ask Jimbo Fisher, I bet he'd tell you he's more impressed with Jameis from the neck up and what's in his chest, not his arm talent.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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I'm 90% certain that 5+ years from now we are talking about Winston as a disappointing failure in the NFL.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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The thing with the rape allegation is that it is still a knock against him even if he's innocent and couldn't have done anything to keep himself out of the situation.

Let's hypothetically agree with MassNole and say they are completely baseless claims, the sex was 100% consensual, the girl was 100% lying and just made them up because she is crazy.

It absolutely sucks and is unlucky for Winston, but I still have that as a negative against him. Not against his character, but just a negative that this story/crazy girl is attached to him. Even if I know he is innocent and will never rape anybody, how do I know that this girl isn't going to decide to sue him or cause some other sort of distraction (that may not be Winston's fault).

With a franchise QB, you want perfection. Obviously nobody is perfect, but all other things being equal, it would have been better for Winston if these allegations never happened.

Edit: All the above being said, the allegations against him (assuming nothing else comes from them) aren't nearly a big enough knock against him to avoid taking him number 1 overall.
I agree 100% with this. It's not the major red flag that some people are making it out to be but at the same time you would absolutely prefer that it wasn't something attached to him so you have to say it's a negative. More than likely this isn't going to have an effect on his career.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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I'm 90% certain that 5+ years from now we are talking about Winston as a disappointing failure in the NFL.
LOL. Based on what??

Before this rape allegation, Winston was a squeaky clean prospect that every program wanted.

He's a pro style QB, his accuracy is uncanny, and his arm is a 50 cal gun.

I see more upside in this kid than any QB that's entered the league in the last 5 years.

He is a football nerd from the study aspect. I think you're hoping more that he's going to fail than actually based on anything substantive.

It's crazy to project failure for Winston's pro career because of a non-rape story.
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Old 12-18-2013, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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(And bringing up Mark Sanchez and rape allegations? Guess what, Mark Sanchez has shown exactly what I'm trying to point out here - poor judgement off the field leads to poor judgement on the field!)
This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read on these boards.

Notable QBs who have made bad decisions off the field but still succeeded on the field: Ben Roethlisberger, Cam Newton, Michael Vick, Brett Favre...
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Why do so many people have to take these discussions so personally?

If Winston was available now, I would probably draft him number 1 overall. That said, he is not in the same league as Luck yet. He is surrounded by an amazing offensive line, wide receiver and running back skill talent. The defense is also elite. You could put many quarterbacks on the FSU team and they would still be sitting at 12-0. Many of the deep balls that Winston gets credit for are more the product of his elite receiving corps.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Why do so many people have to take these discussions so personally?

If Winston was available now, I would probably draft him number 1 overall. That said, he is not in the same league as Luck yet. He is surrounded by an amazing offensive line, wide receiver and running back skill talent. The defense is also elite. You could put many quarterbacks on the FSU team and they would still be sitting at 12-0. Many of the deep balls that Winston gets credit for are more the product of his elite receiving corps.
That same elite WR corps that didn't do sheet until Winston started this season.

You need a skilled driver to open up the throttle on a turbo Porsche.
Winston ain't Ken Dorsey.

Winston gives guys a chance to make a play on the ball deep, which didn't happen with EJ Manuel that often.

He's an elite talent among other talented players. It does happen.

Adrian Peterson played with several future NFL pros at OU. Was he so good in college because he was playing behind a pro Oline, with stud WRs and QB??

To say that any QB would make the throws Winston has and have that offense be as efficient and explosive is wrong.

Honestly, the Miami Hurricanes have similar talent to FSU on offense. The one real difference is at QB. Jameis is that much better than Morris.

If you switched QBs, IMO the 'Canes would be undefeated and FSU would be the squad with a handful of losses.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, the Miami Hurricanes have similar talent to FSU on offense. The one real difference is at QB. Jameis is that much better than Morris.

If you switched QBs, IMO the 'Canes would be undefeated and FSU would be the squad with a handful of losses.
Coaching and game planning are pretty critical here as well and Miami doesn't have nearly the coaching staff Florida State does. If Stephen Morris was at FSU, he would be considerably more developed than is at Miami by virtue of working with Fisher on a daily basis.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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That same elite WR corps that didn't do sheet until Winston started this season.

You need a skilled driver to open up the throttle on a turbo Porsche.
Winston ain't Ken Dorsey.

Winston gives guys a chance to make a play on the ball deep, which didn't happen with EJ Manuel that often.

He's an elite talent among other talented players. It does happen.

Adrian Peterson played with several future NFL pros at OU. Was he so good in college because he was playing behind a pro Oline, with stud WRs and QB??

To say that any QB would make the throws Winston has and have that offense be as efficient and explosive is wrong.

Honestly, the Miami Hurricanes have similar talent to FSU on offense. The one real difference is at QB. Jameis is that much better than Morris.

If you switched QBs, IMO the 'Canes would be undefeated and FSU would be the squad with a handful of losses.
That very well may be the case. But, it's harder to judge him because he is, in fact surrounded by all that talent.

You mentioned Adrian Peterson, but failed to mention that Jason White won the Heisman surrounded by that same talent. Very clearly Winston is no Jason White, but who's to say he isn't...Brady Quinn?
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Luck because his skin is substantially more white than Winston's.

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Old 12-18-2013, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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That same elite WR corps that didn't do sheet until Winston started this season.

You need a skilled driver to open up the throttle on a turbo Porsche.
Winston ain't Ken Dorsey.

Winston gives guys a chance to make a play on the ball deep, which didn't happen with EJ Manuel that often.

He's an elite talent among other talented players. It does happen.

Adrian Peterson played with several future NFL pros at OU. Was he so good in college because he was playing behind a pro Oline, with stud WRs and QB??

To say that any QB would make the throws Winston has and have that offense be as efficient and explosive is wrong.

Honestly, the Miami Hurricanes have similar talent to FSU on offense. The one real difference is at QB. Jameis is that much better than Morris.

If you switched QBs, IMO the 'Canes would be undefeated and FSU would be the squad with a handful of losses.
To say that Miami and FSU have similar talent levels is a little ridiculous. I know you specifically said on offense but I just have to throw out that Miami's defense is allowing 26 ppg whereas FSU is allowing 10.7. They've allowed 17 points or less in all but 1 game. It's crazy how much pressure that takes off of a QB. All you need is a QB to go in and score 20 points every game with those weapons on offense and you would have gone 11-1. The only time Stephen Morris failed to score 20 points in a game was against Florida State.

I still think that Jameis Winston is an elite Qb prospect but don't act like he doesn't have one of the best, if not the actual best, supporting casts of talent around him.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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That same elite WR corps that didn't do sheet until Winston started this year.

Winston gives guys a chance to make a play on the ball deep, which didn't happen with EJ Manuel.
Manuel wasn't that great. Winston is already clearly a better player. Manuel was very good for college but not great of elite like Winston. Manuel got boosted in the draft because of lack of QBs last year and his tools.

Winston is not some system guy who is plug and play, but you also can't deny he is surrounded by really quality players. The truth lies somewhere in between. He is helped by the talent around him but he also helps them.


If Winston was at Miami they would not be undefeated. That's silly. FSu is clearly better than they are and much more talented.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Manuel wasn't that great. Winston is already clearly a better player. Manuel was very good for college but not great of elite like Winston. Manuel got boosted in the draft because of lack of QBs last year and his tools.

Winston is not some system guy who is plug and play, but you also can't deny he is surrounded by really quality players. The truth lies somewhere in between. He is helped by the talent around him but he also helps them.
He tends to put the ball exactly where it needs to be an absolutely absurd amount of the time. It isn't like Johnny Manziel heaving balls up there and hoping for miracle plays by Mike Evans.

His most staggering trait is his success when blitzed, compared to national averages he is a deity.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Did you just call Winston a god?
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MassNole View Post
He tends to put the ball exactly where it needs to be an absolutely absurd amount of the time. It isn't like Johnny Manziel heaving balls up there and hoping for miracle plays by Mike Evans.

His most staggering trait is his success when blitzed, compared to national averages he is a deity.
It feels weird to be arguing against a prospect that I think is going to be the #1 pick but I feel like people are getting a little ahead of themselves.

All I'm going to say is that blitzed is not the same as pressured. Clemson blitzed him a lot in that game but they very rarely pressured him and that's always a recipe for disaster for a defense.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:32 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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Did you just call Winston a god?
Well if he ends up with a son, we know it wasn't due to no immaculate conception. That weak stuff is for suckas who can't get the ladies.

Too soon?
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Guys like Andrew Luck, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Matt Ryan, and Joe Flacco are the prototype QB because they are studious hard workers who keep their nose clean off the field. By definition these guys are far less prone to being in sketchy situations than someone like Jameis Winston. Winstons's activities are simply a red flag that he does not belong in the "QB is a craft" class of player who work hard and study hard. All the physical tools in the world don't matter at the QB position if you don't exercise the mental portion of the game.
i guess you missed the interview with Jimbo that said Winston is a student of the game. he breaks down film right after a game, and he learned a lot from studying and following EJ last year. you know absolutely nothing about his game preparation, and basing your opinion off an accusation that has nothing to do with football.

people get into bad situations, thats life. he got off, so why crucify him.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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i guess you missed the interview with Jimbo that said Winston is a student of the game. he breaks down film right after a game, and he learned a lot from studying and following EJ last year. you know absolutely nothing about his game preparation, and basing your opinion off an accusation that has nothing to do with football.

people get into bad situations, thats life. he got off, so why crucify him.
lol
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:47 PM    (permalink
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lol
i see what you did there.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Really surprised to see both these guys in a discussion like this.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves based on one great Heisman-winning season here.

Winston is not that great.

I'll put my money on Newton, Wilson, Luck, even Tannehill achieving more in the NFL. But time will tell.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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some plays i have seen him make in the pocket while getting pressured(vs BC and Maryland) i haven't seen Luck make. Luck does have pretty good athleticism, but he did not show them as a redshirt freshman.
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