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Old 12-19-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
San Diego Chicken
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Winston has a lot of wind up in his release. Sure he can gun it, but he doesn't snap it out of his hands like an Aaron Rodgers. He needs to tighten that up.
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Old 12-19-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing with Jameis though, njx9.

Winston doesn't 'throw hard' unless his read and progression require it. Nearly every pass he makes has incredible touch, placement and just the right velocity.

He's not out there throwing fastballs, but when Winston sets his feet and decides to let it go, the ball explodes.


Most QBs with Winston's arm strength, especially young ones, only know how to throw the football hard.

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass and in a year or two Jameis Winstons settles into being an overall #1 prospect, but not an alltime great QB prospect.

However if the kid continues on his trajectory, very soon he's going to be on a level where he's only compared to himself.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
Well, I will say this. While I think Jameis Winston is getting hyped as too far as every potential #1 QB prospect that has come before him, I had similar issues that you are describing with Cam Newton. I got the feeling that Cam Newton was a disingenuous lying ************ and wouldn't be able to be an effective QB because he wouldn't be able to develop a rapport with anyone on whatever team drafted him.


And I was completely wrong.
glad you admitted to being wrong, something Scott is unable to do.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
That's the thing with Jameis though, njx9.

Winston doesn't 'throw hard' unless his read and progression require it. Nearly every pass he makes has incredible touch, placement and just the right velocity.

He's not out there throwing fastballs, but when Winston sets his feet and decides to let it go, the ball explodes.


Most QBs with Winston's arm strength, especially young ones, only know how to throw the football hard.

Maybe I'm talking out of my ass and in a year or two Jameis Winstons settles into being an overall #1 prospect, but not an alltime great QB prospect.

However if the kid continues on his trajectory, very soon he's going to be on a level where he's only compared to himself.
i agree. he knows when to put fast balls in tight windows, or lob balls with great touch. when he throws to Benjamin, he puts the ball high so he can go make a play with his huge body/wingspan, while if throwing to Greene he knows he can lead him into open spaces because of his extra gear.
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Old 12-19-2013, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm 90% certain that 5+ years from now we are talking about Winston as a disappointing failure in the NFL.
90%? 90%? Lulz man.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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I think it is close.

We know at this point Luck was a better practice player, but Winston has been better on the field as a RS Freshman.

Both are incredibly smart. Jimbo has said the most impressive thing to him about Winston is his intelligence.

What I think really might give Winston the edge, is his ridiculous leadership. People flock to him, and even the seniors like Lamarcus Joyner and Telvin Smith responded to him. Given that this is basically the same team that EJ had last year, I think the improved success is because Winston's leadership makes the players around him better. Granted, he is still just doing it in college, but that is something that Manning and Brady have done throughout their careers. Make those around them better.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
Well, I will say this. While I think Jameis Winston is getting hyped as too far as every potential #1 QB prospect that has come before him, I had similar issues that you are describing with Cam Newton. I got the feeling that Cam Newton was a disingenuous lying ************ and wouldn't be able to be an effective QB because he wouldn't be able to develop a rapport with anyone on whatever team drafted him.


And I was completely wrong.
I hated Cam's personality a ton too. He just comes of super disingenuous to me. The plastic smile just doesn't look right. I wasn't sure if his immense talent would carry him until he develops in the mental side, and it has in a huge way. His size and arm are just special enough to carry him. His personality with teammates will be good as long as he is a really good player.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Jameis is going to have to mature off the field to keep himself free from accusations. He really is still a kid and needs to learn from what he went through this year. Not every guy was born acting like they will when they are fifty.

My biggest concern with him on the field is some of the hits and sacks he takes. It doesn't matter how physically gifted he is, he still has a human body with joints that don't like being twisted and he takes a lot of hits in very awkward positions. He needs to continue to develop his pocket presence and bring some self preservation into play. That said, he threw some pretty nice blocks this season and teammates love that selflessness in their quarterback.

He has done what the two first round picks before him failed to do, give his team a shot at the national championship. Both EJ and Christian should have led their teams to better rankings. I know Jameis plays on a stacked team, but EJ was one of 11 Seminoles that moved on to the NFL this year.
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Old 12-20-2013, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
What physical advantage does Luck have over Winston?? None.
Jameis has elite arm strength, not a decent functional arm like Luck.


Accuracy?? I could argue even at this point that Jameis Winston is every bit as accurate as Andrew Luck right now.

People are assuming that Luck coming out of Stanford was more advanced with his footwork, ability to go through progressions and read defenses. If so, it's not by much. Luck was more experienced when he left Stanford, but it's hard to say he's better at those skills than Jameis.

Work ethic, mental football acumen, leadership...take your pick but IMO Winston scores off the charts in all three of these categories too.

People talk as if FSU was a consensus nat'l championship contender before the start of the season. They were not. Winston turned them into one.

Whenever Winston decides to leave FSU, Jameis is going to be one of those alltime prospects at QB. His game is so sophisticated right now for a 19 year old. If he stays for two more years, Jameis could end up being the guy all other QB prospects are compared.
At a certain point, you can throw out arm strength. Sure Jameis has a stronger arm, but Luck's arm is more than strong enough to make every throw. Luck's command of his offenses is absolutely amazing. You see guys like Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Matthew Stafford, make that bone headed throw to lose the game but you almost never see Luck do that. Out of 11 wins last year, 7 of those were won on game winning drives led by Luck. The guy is just a winner and probably has one of the best football minds I've ever seen.

Back to Jameis: The reason why Jameis looks all world all the time is because his wide receivers are open almost every play. It's easy when all you have to do is throw to open targets. He makes so many easy throws every game similar to how Leinart did in college.

Jameis is really good, don't get me wrong. He just isn't near Luck's level yet and I don't think he ever will be.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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Eh, I watched Winston this year and he makes some of the most complex throws because of his arm.

Some throws are easy, but not all of them. If the throws were so easy at FSU, why the hell wasn't EJ Manuel or Christian Ponder making them?? FSU almost always has physically gifted skill position talent every year. It really comes down to the QB.

When you make the right reads the throws look easy. But Jameis also can throw over a LB and in front of a safety, throw guys open along the sideline, stick throws to guys tightly covered one-on-one.

As for Luck, what's most impressive about him early in his career is he's able to play his way out of his own mistakes, which is the reason why he's in so many late game winning situations.

Arm strength matters in the pros. There's a baseline that's needed, however guys with superior arm strength have a greater likelihood of completing passes outside the hashes and midrange throws against coverage.

Luck doesn't have elite velocity on his balls, therefore his reads need to be spot on and his anticipation needs to be dialed in.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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This might be the stupidest thing I've ever read on these boards.

Notable QBs who have made bad decisions off the field but still succeeded on the field: Ben Roethlisberger, Cam Newton, Michael Vick, Brett Favre...
I wouldn't want any one of these guys as my franchise QB.

- Michael Vick is one of the most overrated players in NFL history. Everybody thinks he was successful in the NFL because he ran for a bunch of yards while throwing 56.2% of his passes for an average QB rating of 80.9, all while winning exactly ONE playoff game in his entire career. He was a glorified RB and not a successful QB.

- Ben Roethlisberger is a slightly above-average QB at best. Does he come with the 2004-2010 Steelers defenses which were some of the best in NFL history? If So, then I can play nearly anyone above-average at QB and win a ton of games.

- Brett Favre was the most durable QB of all time, and that's commendable, but outside of that short run in the mid 90s with one of the all-time great NFL teams ever (stacked with talent, especially the 1996 Packers) and his flukey 2009 MVP caliber season with the Vikings, he really wasn't much more than your typical above-average QB. And he made a ton of mistakes in any given game. his TD-INT ratio was always one of the lowest in the league. Off field poor decisions = on field poor decisions.

- Cam Newton is playing on a team with the #2 defense in the NFL right now. He himself is playing on a slightly above-average level. He has a QB rating of 89.6. Put Andrew Luck on this Panthers team and they are even better and potentially more of a Super Bowl threat. I'm still not sold on Cam Newton. He has shown he can win games this year when his team plays elite defense. That's it.
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
What physical advantage does Luck have over Winston?? None.
Jameis has elite arm strength, not a decent functional arm like Luck.


Accuracy?? I could argue even at this point that Jameis Winston is every bit as accurate as Andrew Luck right now.

People are assuming that Luck coming out of Stanford was more advanced with his footwork, ability to go through progressions and read defenses. If so, it's not by much. Luck was more experienced when he left Stanford, but it's hard to say he's better at those skills than Jameis.

Work ethic, mental football acumen, leadership...take your pick but IMO Winston scores off the charts in all three of these categories too.

People talk as if FSU was a consensus nat'l championship contender before the start of the season. They were not. Winston turned them into one.

Whenever Winston decides to leave FSU, Jameis is going to be one of those alltime prospects at QB. His game is so sophisticated right now for a 19 year old. If he stays for two more years, Jameis could end up being the guy all other QB prospects are compared.

FSU has been stacked with talent for the past 2+ years. You're kidding yourself if you think comparing FSU this year to 2011 Auburn or 2011 Stanford is a fair comparison. Look at what happened to Auburn after Nick Fairley and Cam Newton left. Look at where Stanford was before Harbaugh and Luck.

Winston's production is being completely taken out of context. It's easy to put up big numbers and look awesome when:

a.) you are never touched in the pocket because you have one of the best OLines in the country
b.) you can count on 4.5+ yards per carry from your running back forcing the DL and LB to not key in on you
c.) you can throw passes up to your playmaking WRs knowing that there is a greater margin for error because they are so talented and easily outplay the DBs covering them and most importantly
d.) you play on a team with one of the best defenses in the country which enables you to play with a lead, which is the easiest thing for a QB to do - there is no worry about forcing throws to make a play because you aren't pressured to scored points in that situation, and you can lean on the run game more and then consequently play action
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Old 12-20-2013, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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FSU has been stacked with talent for the past 2+ years. You're kidding yourself if you think comparing FSU this year to 2011 Auburn or 2011 Stanford is a fair comparison. Look at what happened to Auburn after Nick Fairley and Cam Newton left. Look at where Stanford was before Harbaugh and Luck.

Winston's production is being completely taken out of context. It's easy to put up big numbers and look awesome when:

a.) you are never touched in the pocket because you have one of the best OLines in the country
b.) you can count on 4.5+ yards per carry from your running back forcing the DL and LB to not key in on you
c.) you can throw passes up to your playmaking WRs knowing that there is a greater margin for error because they are so talented and easily outplay the DBs covering them and most importantly
d.) you play on a team with one of the best defenses in the country which enables you to play with a lead, which is the easiest thing for a QB to do - there is no worry about forcing throws to make a play because you aren't pressured to scored points in that situation, and you can lean on the run game more and then consequently play action
All I can say is you obviously are not watching the games...and I can say that for most people in here. Or your simply not paying attention. His production is absolutely not out of context when you watch the games and see the kinds of plays he's making. Not to mention...your highly exaggerating all those points. He gets pressured, his WRs drop plenty of balls, all of his stats are early in the game before he gets the lead. Which you seem to think is such a big factor...like he's piling up garbage time stats. Even though he's only thrown 18 passes in the entire fourth quarter.

The point still stands, he has taken FSU from being an underachiever who loses games they aren't suppose to/plays down to their level of competition...into a complete juggernaut. That's the big/final step for a program...so if you want to get into semantics on whats more important, you can talk until your blue in the face.

People saying "He can grow into being a great player/Its easy to do what he's doing on a stacked team..."

Are obviously not watching the games. He's already an amazing player! He shows unreal feel in the pocket, great footwork to move and keep his eyes downfield. He also has ELITE accuracy, he throws guys open consistently. He throws the ball in the perfect spot so the WR can avoid a defender and make a play. He's mind-blowingly amazing on third down, especially on 3rd and 10+. He runs the entire offense WAY better than Ponder or EJ who had both been in the system for 5 years. But yea...he's just a lazy player taking advantage of bad competition and the supporting cast.

He's not Jamarcus Russell getting a bunch of hype because he's a great physical talent. He's getting hype because the little things that separates great QBs...he is elite at already. He was getting number 1 pick hype after his first game, and its because he already looked like an NFL QB with the way he moved and threw the ball.

You're really not worth arguing with because your main point is that your QB is not a white nerd so you think he's lazy and has character issues. Seems like you might have some other issues you need to deal with. Theres a lot of stereotyping that because Luck was a white nerd who went to Stanford, he must have the mental part of the game down better than a black freshmen who talks like Jameis at FSU. Yet all Jimbo's raved about is his intelligence and the way he processes information. Jameis has more control of his offense then Luck did at Stanford as a freshmen...and FSU runs a more complex offense.

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Old 12-20-2013, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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The point still stands, he has taken FSU from being an underachiever who loses games they aren't suppose to/plays down to their level of competition...into a complete juggernaut. That's the big/final step for a program...so if you want to get into semantics on whats more important, you can talk until your blue in the face.
The point is that FSU has been loaded with talent for years now. They have had the top or close to top recruiting class several years in a row.

It was only a matter of time before that talent matured into a juggernaut. If it wasn't Winston at QB, it would have been anyone else and the results would be similar.

I mean, they won 12 games last year without Winston. They would win 12+ games this year without Winston as well.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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If Winston improves at the the same rate Luck did, he'll probably wind up a better player. The problem is, you really can't gauge how much someone can improve, and projecting someone to make the jumps Luck did is very risky.

Winston is a bright guy, but Luck is one of the smartest guys you'll ever see, off the field, in the classroom, in film study, before the snap, and after.
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Old 12-20-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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The point is that FSU has been loaded with talent for years now. They have had the top or close to top recruiting class several years in a row.

It was only a matter of time before that talent matured into a juggernaut. If it wasn't Winston at QB, it would have been anyone else and the results would be similar.

I mean, they won 12 games last year without Winston. They would win 12+ games this year without Winston as well.
It was only a matter of finding the right QB before the talent matured into a juggernaut....Time is not the reason why 3 WR's are having career years after going from RS Senior QB to a RS Freshmen.

The results might be similar to someone whose not paying attention...someone whose not paying attention would see Tim Tebow's 65% in college and say he's an accurate passer...someone would say Timmy Chang is a good QB, etc. The overall record might be similar with a different QB, but the team would not even be remotely similar...which is why its not compared to last year.

FSU won 12 games last year...but they also blew at 16-0 lead to NC State while not scoring a single point in the second half, almost lost to VTech, started out slow against Clemson, looked sluggish against Northern Illinois, looked sluggish against Georgia Tech, self imploded in a home loss to UF. Those things simply didn't happen with Winston at the helm.

Sure FSU has a lot of talent. But you seem to be arguing that taking a team from a 8/10 to a 10/10 is not difficult. Many people will say that the last step, taking a team to the elite level is the most difficult of all. I'm not trying to knock taking a bad team and making them great isn't tough...but its not the only thing worth doing. Also...Luck was not the reason Stanford took that step. He was part of it...but they won a lot of games his freshmen year with Gerhart chugging along, and they've won a lot of games since...They've been just as successful since he left because Stanford built a great program.
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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The point is that FSU has been loaded with talent for years now. They have had the top or close to top recruiting class several years in a row.
The last skill player FSU saw drafted into the NFL was Lorenzo Booker in 2007. Yes that will change as it's likely all 11 starters on offense (and defense) will be drafted, but that hasn't been the case "for years".
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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You're really not worth arguing with because your main point is that your QB is not a white nerd so you think he's lazy and has character issues. Seems like you might have some other issues you need to deal with. Theres a lot of stereotyping that because Luck was a white nerd who went to Stanford, he must have the mental part of the game down better than a black freshmen who talks like Jameis at FSU. Yet all Jimbo's raved about is his intelligence and the way he processes information. Jameis has more control of his offense then Luck did at Stanford as a freshmen...and FSU runs a more complex offense.
It's not like Jameis Winston got into Stanford or anything.......
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Old 12-20-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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so what? sadfjksd
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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so what? sadfjksd
e

Because there's an implication by some posters there's absolutely no way Winston could be an elite quarterbacking talent from the neck up.
No way he could be a CEREBRAL player, the way Luck was....at Stanford.


Luck gets a LOT of juice because he went to Stanford, and inevitably invites the John Elway comparisons as the greatest QB prospect of his generation.

It's good to see that Jameis turned down Stanford for FSU, but was still a strong enough student in the classroom to earn a football scholarship from the Cardinal.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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I just don't see a rs freshman to be on the same level mentally at a rs junior Luck. Luck was as mentally prepared as QB prospects can be so it's not crazy to think a 1 year starter isn't on that level yet. Winston can be in the future, but he isn't there yet.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Because there's an implication by some posters there's absolutely no way Winston could be an elite quarterbacking talent from the neck up.
No way he could be a CEREBRAL player, the way Luck was....at Stanford.
i didn't see any of it attributed to stanford, but standing on the other side of the street, it's possible i overlooked it. i don't think the school either guy chose to play football at is super relevant, as i don't think either was getting in on an academic scholarship, or out being myron rolle in their degree program.

i guess i'd call anyone more than a bit disingenuous if they really thought the university i was attending had anything to do with my football iq.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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from what i've seen, all of the mental parts of the game. the 'it' factor, that extends beyond "he throws the ball hard!" to "he plays the position like a star nfl qb". it's the single most important part of playing qb, imo, and it's what separates a guy like young tom brady (with no star-quality physical skills whatsoever) from a ryan leaf (who had all the arm in the world). *shrug* i accept that it's personal, and maybe you think you see it in winston. i see an immature player, who might grow into a stud, but might just as easily marcus vick out. i never saw it in cam until he was in the nfl, so i'm certainly not claiming prescience.



you seem to be judging them purely on physical ability. you're right, luck wasn't that special physically. neither were most of the best qbs in the nfl. but that's not dispositive of anything. i don't buy, for a second, that one of the most mentally ready qbs i've ever seen is on the same level as a guy who's played a single season, on a team vastly more talented than their competition, who has 2 more years before he's even draft eligible to fall apart, or fulfill his promise.

but then, i think the question is flawed and idiotic in the first place. if we were strictly comparing the two at the same point in their career, i'd fully agree that winston is substantially better. but i think suggesting that you'd take winston as a freshman over luck as a senior is ridiculous. you're gambling on 3 years of maturity and awareness for 'he throws hard'.
Sorry to be a dick but this post shows that you can't have watched enough or know enough about Jameis to have an informed opinion on him. Pretty much everything you were knocking him for - his 'it factor', his poise, his intelligence, his leadership, his presence - are all revered more than his arm strength. I'm not quite sure where you got this impression that he's black Jeff George. He has a very strong arm for a 19 year old but it's not god-tier yet. His accuracy, efficiency, and mastery of arguably the most complex passing offense in college football (EJ said his NFL offense was less complex than his college one) have been more impressive than his ability to throw the ball hard.

I get that you don't like to anoint highly hyped freshman/rookies too soon (and maybe you don't like him because he may be a rapist which is reasonable) and we're talking about are the most subjective of qualities but these things you're trying to criticize him for relative to Luck are some of the things he's overwhelmingly praised for.
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Old 12-20-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-20-2013, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Sorry to be a dick but this post shows that you can't have watched enough or know enough about Jameis to have an informed opinion on him. Pretty much everything you were knocking him for - his 'it factor', his poise, his intelligence, his leadership, his presence - are all revered more than his arm strength. I'm not quite sure where you got this impression that he's black Jeff George. He has a very strong arm for a 19 year old but it's not god-tier yet. His accuracy, efficiency, and mastery of arguably the most complex passing offense in college football (EJ said his NFL offense was less complex than his college one) have been more impressive than his ability to throw the ball hard.
cool? i don't think any of those are on luck's level. and i *did* in fact, watch a number of FSU games. nor did i call him jeff george, nor did i come remotely close to calling him jeff george. nor did i say he sucks at any of those things.

"*shrug* i accept that it's personal, and maybe you think you see it in winston. i see an immature player, who might grow into a stud, but might just as easily marcus vick out."

i didn't think i was unclear here, but maybe i was.

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I get that you don't like to anoint highly hyped freshman/rookies too soon (and maybe you don't like him because he may be a rapist which is reasonable) and we're talking about are the most subjective of qualities but these things you're trying to criticize him for relative to Luck are some of the things he's overwhelmingly praised for.
in this context, i couldn't care less about the rape accusation (but only in this context). i don't think he's anywhere near luck's level in any of those traits, and i think your'e kidding yourself if you believe he is. *shrug*

maybe i'm wrong and he's the best quarterback of all time as a freshman. *shrug*

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