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Old 03-22-2014, 06:12 PM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
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Saw this blog post (refuse to call B/R posts articles) from our very own Scar and I thought it was really interesting.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...modern-schemes

In essence, the post addresses the fact that NFL defenses are very interchangeable and at this moment, the number of players with their hand in the dirt doesn't mean very much in the scheme or in terms of scheme fit.

More important in the role of those players in the front seven. Where do those players line up and what is their function.

There has been a growing movement within football minds to adjust the perspective of the fan and the media to stop calling players "3-4" or "4-3" players and look at the capability of those players in terms of what they can do against offenses.
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Old 03-23-2014, 04:04 AM    (permalink
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Football is an ever changing game and that is never going to end. I think you'll even get to see the return of the run as the feature play in the future as more and more team's defenses sell out to defend the pass.

Will schemes get completely lost in the shuffle, I don't think so, in general, a 3-4 athletes are simply a different physical build that that of a 4-3 athlete and teams will never have enough stars to rule out deciding on a main defense that suits their current athletes. Can 3-4 athletes play a 4-3, yes, if it is only for a couple of plays after which they would become a liability as the offensive team adjusts. Ditto for 4-3 players playing in a 3-4. Players also spend a great deal of time learning their individual responsibilities and there is just so much you can heap on them and expect positive results.

While the game remains in its current format, where passing the ball is the main offensive priority, teams can disguise their defenses quite effectively and use all forms of systems, but let one HC come up with a whole new concept contrary to modern thought, and defensive teams will scramble back to their set pieces to learn how to defend it. We saw that with Bill Walsh and the WCO and we will see similar situations occur again.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Football is an ever changing game and that is never going to end. I think you'll even get to see the return of the run as the feature play in the future as more and more team's defenses sell out to defend the pass.

Will schemes get completely lost in the shuffle, I don't think so, in general, a 3-4 athletes are simply a different physical build that that of a 4-3 athlete and teams will never have enough stars to rule out deciding on a main defense that suits their current athletes. Can 3-4 athletes play a 4-3, yes, if it is only for a couple of plays after which they would become a liability as the offensive team adjusts. Ditto for 4-3 players playing in a 3-4. Players also spend a great deal of time learning their individual responsibilities and there is just so much you can heap on them and expect positive results.

While the game remains in its current format, where passing the ball is the main offensive priority, teams can disguise their defenses quite effectively and use all forms of systems, but let one HC come up with a whole new concept contrary to modern thought, and defensive teams will scramble back to their set pieces to learn how to defend it. We saw that with Bill Walsh and the WCO and we will see similar situations occur again.
That is a good point about the run. I wonder if the SB that we just had will be a trend-changer toward that. Denver put up big-time passing numbers, but in the end, it all crumbled. And, in the SB, it has been a disturbing trend over the years with teams that are too much about the pass.
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Old 03-24-2014, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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It's a really good point and something I have said a few times, especially with regards to Clowney.

Very few teams in the NFL play more than 50% in base defense. Defense is basically a reactive unit. If the offense shows something they will change depending on what it is.

It is something the Patriots did 2 years ago a lot. Shifting along the defensive line completely changed what they were doing but just looking you would say they were playing a "43" defense.

However, when you looked at it they incorporated aspects of both a 43 and 34 at the same time.

Brandon Deaderick would line up on the left side of the defense as the strong side 5 tech with Kyle Love playing straight up on the OC. From this it looks like a straight 34. However, Vince Wilfork would line up on the outside shoulder of the OG (3 tech) and Chandler Jones would play outside the OT.

In one play they would have a combination at the same time. People see 4 down linemen and assume it is a 43 or 42. However whether a player has his hand in the dirt is all semantics.

A simple shift could have Wilfork move to 5 tech and Chandler could stand up (34), or Love and Deaderick could just as easily shift to make a straight 43.

When it comes to someone like Clowney the Texans can still play a "34" defense but he can have his hand on the ground. Demarcus Ware often rushed with his hand on the ground for Dallas under Wade Phillips.
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Old 03-24-2014, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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It's a really good point and something I have said a few times, especially with regards to Clowney.

Very few teams in the NFL play more than 50% in base defense. Defense is basically a reactive unit. If the offense shows something they will change depending on what it is.

It is something the Patriots did 2 years ago a lot. Shifting along the defensive line completely changed what they were doing but just looking you would say they were playing a "43" defense.

However, when you looked at it they incorporated aspects of both a 43 and 34 at the same time.

Brandon Deaderick would line up on the left side of the defense as the strong side 5 tech with Kyle Love playing straight up on the OC. From this it looks like a straight 34. However, Vince Wilfork would line up on the outside shoulder of the OG (3 tech) and Chandler Jones would play outside the OT.

In one play they would have a combination at the same time. People see 4 down linemen and assume it is a 43 or 42. However whether a player has his hand in the dirt is all semantics.

A simple shift could have Wilfork move to 5 tech and Chandler could stand up (34), or Love and Deaderick could just as easily shift to make a straight 43.

When it comes to someone like Clowney the Texans can still play a "34" defense but he can have his hand on the ground. Demarcus Ware often rushed with his hand on the ground for Dallas under Wade Phillips.
I think the 3-4 always incorporated the idea that the rush LB could line up occasionally as a DE, that why 3-4 rush LBers were always pretty well ex college DE's. They had to be able to do both.

It's kind of funny that in its early success period, only 2 teams played a 3-4, New England and Pittsburgh and its original success was a result of those 2 teams having their pick of all 3-4 athletes who were often passed over by traditional 4-3 teams. That gave NE and Pittsburgh a huge edge in talent acquisition on draft day, till so many other teams switched to that defense and the athletes best suited to it, got spread around the league and NE and Pittsburgh then lost their edge.

It just goes to show how smart BB is, that he realized that he had lost his edge in acquiring 3-4 athletes and instead switched back to a 4-3 defense. pretty brilliant if you ask me.

While teams today use formations from many defensive schemes, NFL offenses have countered by using the quick huddle to limit roster substitutions, making it more difficult to change defensive schemes and forcing teams to rely more on a basic defense. And the battle goes on.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
Football is an ever changing game and that is never going to end. I think you'll even get to see the return of the run as the feature play in the future as more and more team's defenses sell out to defend the pass.
I think you already started to see this last year a little bit with the Patriots.
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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I think you already started to see this last year a little bit with the Patriots.
I think this was more of an evolution from necessity than by design. We lost our top play maker and our wrs suck balls. We more or less had to sell out for the run game to stay competitive.

I forgot who said it but being one dimensional, even if youre dominant in that facet, is never as beneficial as being versatile. I think this was said in response to Kelly's speed offense where yeah its great you can run a constant hurry up but being able to transition to a huddle clock control to no huddle is just as important as being able to run plays every twenty something seconds. Same goes for running actual plays. Being unpredictable and keeping defenses guessing is just as important as being really good at running the ball. Plus the rules completely favor throwing right now so I'm not sure changing your philosophy to the run would be overtly beneficial.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Everyone is multi front and multigap now. The 4-3 and 3-4 lines are blurred. It's not an accurate way to describe a defense anymore.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Everyone is multi front and multigap now. The 4-3 and 3-4 lines are blurred. It's not an accurate way to describe a defense anymore.
That's not entirely true. Some teams are still strictly 4-3 or 3-4.
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Old 03-26-2014, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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That's not entirely true. Some teams are still strictly 4-3 or 3-4.
I worded it incorrectly. Every team incorporates 1 gap and 2 gap principles into their defenses.

Teams are no longer exclusively 1 gap or 2 gap.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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It's not so much about being a 4-3 or 3-4 defense but whether you are playing a spill scheme or contain with your force players. Some guys just can't cross face and need the ability to just wrong shoulder a block ( one gap systems) or you can teach your players to cross face and contain a play(two gap systems) some guys just aren't good at it. Patriots run a variation where one side is playing two gap, and backside is playing one gap. Very complex system requiring great inside backers
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Saw this blog post (refuse to call B/R posts articles) from our very own Scar and I thought it was really interesting.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...modern-schemes

In essence, the post addresses the fact that NFL defenses are very interchangeable and at this moment, the number of players with their hand in the dirt doesn't mean very much in the scheme or in terms of scheme fit.

More important in the role of those players in the front seven. Where do those players line up and what is their function.

There has been a growing movement within football minds to adjust the perspective of the fan and the media to stop calling players "3-4" or "4-3" players and look at the capability of those players in terms of what they can do against offenses.
Scar!!! If you ever had a scar made sig, you were too cool for school!

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Skimmed through the read, but I don't have a strong opinion on it. Now days, if you don't have a hybrid defense, then you're old school for sure.
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Old 03-27-2014, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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Well depending on which technique on the defensive line and what their gap responsibilities are, it's all the same and hasn't changed....the thing that has changed are we are seeing more hybrid defenses and much more nickel. The big thing is in 3-4s, even when they are in nickel, the OLB edge rushers are usually standing up in a 2 point stance and still need to be able to move laterally and cover. The ends in a 2-gap scheme MUST be long in frame and able to hold the point of attack and let linebackers make plays. 2-gap ILBs must be big enough to shed blockers and take on OGs. Most 3-4s nowadays are hybrid and 1 gap systems, so we see more smaller, faster linebackers that can play ILB in any system and fewer big guys who can't cover.
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