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Old 04-23-2014, 01:53 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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You don't get hired, you volunteer and they don't give you a salary, so technically its not an employer.
No, I was hired. I interviewed for an open volunteering position and they hired me. I was considered a non-wage employee on the hospital staff who had a schedule to come in every week and specific job responsibilities to perform. How exactly, is that different? Should I call an attorney?
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:03 PM    (permalink
Jas
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No, I was hired. I interviewed for an open volunteering position and they hired me. I was considered a non-wage employee on the hospital staff who had a schedule to come in every week and specific job responsibilities to perform. How exactly, is that different? Should I call an attorney?
Ok, you want to get caught in semantics here, they didn't pay you, these women get a salary, and it happens to be below the legal minimum wage.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:06 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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Ok, you want to get caught in semantics here, they didn't pay you, these women get a salary, and it happens to be below the legal minimum wage.
So are you saying they'd be fine if they were paid nothing, but since they get something it's unfair? They don't get salary, they get paid for appearances.

Does a band that gets hired by a coffee shop to play once a week need to get minimum wage? Keep in mind they have to practice as a group, so I'd guess you'd consider that part of the hours they work...
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:07 PM    (permalink
Jas
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Actually you have it backward they get a very poor salary and usually don't get anything for appearances. If they were compensated decently for appearances or calender sales, I wouldn't think it would be an issue.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:12 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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Actually you have it backward they get a very poor salary and usually don't get anything for appearances.
So the article you posted was wrong. The Ben-Gals are not actually paid $90 per game, but it is $13.84 cents per week?

Appearances, performances, games, whatever you want to call it. You are the one stuck on semantics now. They all agree to different things, but in my mind it's still volunteer work that they are reimbursed a little bit for.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:25 PM    (permalink
Jas
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When you break it down, yes it amounts to this " breaking minimum wage and labor laws." Thats all that really matters here.
You can view it anyway you want to fit your opinion but the truth is it isn't volunteer work and the pay is below legal standard and they are not compensated in any other way..i.e. tips for a waiter or waitress, if the richest people in sports can't pay them fairly or give a percentage of sales on merch or a bonus for appearances. I say take it to court. Greedy pieces of @#$!&.

And honestly I don't think they're an integral part of sports, and I don't think they're particularly good role models for little girls but they exist and to treat them like this is B.S.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:40 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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When you break it down, yes it amounts to this " breaking minimum wage and labor laws." Thats all that really matters here.
You can view it anyway you want to fit your opinion but the truth is it isn't volunteer work and the pay is below legal standard and they are not compensated in any other way..i.e. tips for a waiter or waitress, if the richest people in sports can't pay them fairly or give a percentage of sales on merch or a bonus for appearances. I say take it to court.
Ok, so we've got 8 home games per season. Let's say they're "working" 5 hours per game (40 hours). Let's say they practice 6 hours per week for 20 weeks (120 hours). Let's say they do 10 charity appearances for 2 hours each (20 hours). Let's say they do a 4 hour photo shoot (4 hours). They've "worked" 204 hours. If we give them the minimum wage for those 204 hours they've earned $1479 compared to the $1250 the Raiderettes got. Is an extra $229 dollars per year (or $4.40 per week!?!) worth all this stupidity.

I call it volunteer work because they are working less than 5 hours per week if you average it out to the whole year. Even that is extremely generous because it pays them for practicing. I gave the band at a coffee shop example earlier...not going to pay them more if they practice more. None of the cheerleaders are doing that as their sole source of income, it's just something they do for fun and in some cases as a way to get noticed for modeling or whatever.
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Old 04-23-2014, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Ok, so we've got 8 home games per season. Let's say they're "working" 5 hours per game (40 hours). Let's say they practice 6 hours per week for 20 weeks (120 hours). Let's say they do 10 charity appearances for 2 hours each (20 hours). Let's say they do a 4 hour photo shoot (4 hours). They've "worked" 204 hours. If we give them the minimum wage for those 204 hours they've earned $1479 compared to the $1250 the Raiderettes got. Is an extra $229 dollars per year (or $4.40 per week!?!) worth all this stupidity.

I call it volunteer work because they are working less than 5 hours per week if you average it out to the whole year. Even that is extremely generous because it pays them for practicing. I gave the band at a coffee shop example earlier...not going to pay them more if they practice more. None of the cheerleaders are doing that as their sole source of income, it's just something they do for fun and in some cases as a way to get noticed for modeling or whatever.
Well, if it's no big deal give it to them. And they wouldn't have to sue for it.
I mean it's not like they don't have it right, ask yourself why it had to get to this, why wasn't it 5 to 10 dollars an hr anyway?
You're breaking the law and should be taken to court. As a matter of fact lets all just let everyone that employs us, get away with this sort of thing.

I don't really care if it's their primary source of income or what reasons they do it, give them a legal wage. You're making excuses to justify the behavior of these people who wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills..wow!!
How do you think they get so wealthy??!! Because of people who think this is ok.

I say they should also get a nice share of the profits on anything that has their image on it that gets sold, I wish I was the lawyer taking this case.

I have an idea lets take a couple million from Goodell and divy it up to all the underpaid employees of the NFL and the teams. The janitors and stadium workers, he doesn't work as hard as they do anyway.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Well, if it's no big deal give it to them. And they wouldn't have to sue for it.
I mean it's not like they don't have it right, ask yourself why it had to get to this, why wasn't it 5 to 10 dollars an hr anyway?
You're breaking the law and should be taken to court. As a matter of fact lets all just let everyone that employs us, get away with this sort of thing.

I don't really care if it's their primary source of income or what reasons they do it, give them a legal wage. You're making excuses to justify the behavior of these people who wipe their asses with hundred dollar bills..wow!!
How do you think they get so wealthy??!! Because of people who think this is ok.

I say they should also get a nice share of the profits on anything that has their image on it that gets sold, I wish I was the lawyer taking this case.
So how much do you give them? Break it down for me, how many hours do they work per week? Are they paid for practicing? If one girl stays late because she needs more practice, is she compensated for that? Is commute time paid? If they're working out on their own, is it paid? Are they paid for meals (since they have to stay in shape)? Are they paid while they're getting their hair done? Then we can determine how much to pay them.

Edit: I just remembered a lot of these girls took years of dance classes. Probably need to give them back pay for that job related training.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm all for income equality, but come on. They're not the main attraction, or even the side attraction. They're just... there because of tradition. Give them cuts of whatever they pull in from appearances or things, but 100 dollars a game seems fair. Last time I checked, nobody in any sort of entertainment gets paid to practice, they get paid for the actual event.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Those are all things that have to be worked out, I would think 10.00 an hr for the hours they work and some form of compensation based on product sales and appearances would be fair so they can have some type of income while they're not doing this job during the offseason.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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I'm all for income equality, but come on. They're not the main attraction, or even the side attraction. They're just... there because of tradition. Give them cuts of whatever they pull in from appearances or things, but 100 dollars a game seems fair. Last time I checked, nobody in any sort of entertainment gets paid to practice, they get paid for the actual event.
I'd give them $100 per game, and $50 for any other appearance.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Those are all things that have to be worked out, I would think 10.00 an hr for the hours they work and some form of compensation based on product sales and appearances would be fair so they can have some type of income while they're not doing this job during the offseason.
Or just make each salon "the official salon the Oakland Raidettes" or whatever the name is in exchange for salon things, give them a cut of calendar sales, and pay them for each appearance. The practices aren't something they should be paid for because you get paid for what you do, and they are paid to be cheerleaders at games. Awesome, works for everyone.

I don't know why everything isn't whored out for sponsorships like that. It becomes a win/win/win/win. The cheerleaders get the hair stuff for free, the team keeps them happy by not paying for anything, the salon gets to become the official salon of 20+ beautiful women who are on TV and in front of 60k+ people every week, and the people who do the hair stuff gets to have the status of being the hair lady for a certain couple cheerleaders, building a rapport with them, while also getting to use that as their marketing pitch.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm all for income equality, but come on. They're not the main attraction, or even the side attraction. They're just... there because of tradition. Give them cuts of whatever they pull in from appearances or things, but 100 dollars a game seems fair. Last time I checked, nobody in any sort of entertainment gets paid to practice, they get paid for the actual event.
Well again you're talking about people who are the main attraction and get exorbitant amounts of money why would you pay them to practice, I would think it's all built into the contract. But they do also get endorsement deals, so yes, giving them a cut would be nice.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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I'd give them $100 per game, and $50 for any other appearance.
100 per game is good. Appearances would vary, but 50 seems like a good baseline. Camps are obviously more lucrative, so they'd get more, and I'd have them run clinics for local cheerleaders in the off-season and let them keep everything after the overhead.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Or just make each salon "the official salon the Oakland Raidettes" or whatever the name is in exchange for salon things, give them a cut of calendar sales, and pay them for each appearance. The practices aren't something they should be paid for because you get paid for what you do, and they are paid to be cheerleaders at games. Awesome, works for everyone.

I don't know why everything isn't whored out for sponsorships like that. It becomes a win/win/win/win. The cheerleaders get the hair stuff for free, the team keeps them happy by not paying for anything, the salon gets to become the official salon of 20+ beautiful women who are on TV and in front of 60k+ people every week, and the people who do the hair stuff gets to have the status of being the hair lady for a certain couple cheerleaders, building a rapport with them, while also getting to use that as their marketing pitch.
That's all very interesting with the sponsors and perks, I like it but there's still the legality of the wage that needs to be addressed. If they would settle for 100 a game plus a cut of the sales and things you mentioned, great.
But as it is now, it's not right.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Well again you're talking about people who are the main attraction and get exorbitant amounts of money why would you pay them to practice, I would think it's all built into the contract. But they do also get endorsement deals, so yes, giving them a cut would be nice.
They don't get anything exorbitant. They get what they draw. Football is a billion dollar enterprise and people pay to watch specific players play. The draw isn't nameless cheerleaders, they don't deserve a cut of what Darren McFadden makes on jersey sales or his salary to be an NFL Runningback.

Cheerleaders are paid to do a performance on Sunday's. They should be paid to make appearances, but nobody should ever get paid to practice stuff that, like it or not, goes virtually unnoticed. If they worked 40 hours a week on amazing routines and all of that, it still wouldn't matter, because the majority of people wouldn't notice.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 04-23-2014, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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That's all very interesting with the sponsors and perks, I like it but there's still the legality of the wage that needs to be addressed.
They're not employees. They are contractors paid to show up and do a job on Sunday. I don't pay for a plumber to read about fixing toilets, I pay him to fix mine.
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JBalla is mormon, so naturally he assumes that whenever you get one marriage done, another two or five are in the works.

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Old 04-23-2014, 03:30 PM    (permalink
badgerbacker
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Do SI swimsuit models get a cut of the magazine sales? Not trying to be a dick, I honestly don't know. I'd figure if you pay them to do the modeling, they wouldn't get a cut of the profits on top of that.

Like jballa said, it would obviously be a case to case basis for appearances, but I'd say $100 per game and $50 or $20/hour for appearances, whichever is greater and nothing for practices. It's going to end up still being less than minimum wage if you calculate in time spent practicing...
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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They're not employees. They are contractors paid to show up and do a job on Sunday. I don't pay for a plumber to read about fixing toilets, I pay him to fix mine.
I never once said they should be paid to practice, but as contracted employees of the NFL or the teams, they should be paid fairly.

And yes, it's my opinion that the NFL players make entirely too much to play a game, and if they deserve the rights to the money they bring in on jersey sales and to be compensated for it, so do these women on the items they sell.
I don't think they deserve to take a cut of a players jersey sales, I don't know where you came up with these ideas.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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I never once said they should be paid to practice, but as contracted employees of the NFL or the teams, they should be paid fairly.

And yes, it's my opinion that the NFL players make entirely too much to play a game, and if they deserve the rights to the money they bring in on jersey sales and to be compensated for it, so do these women on the items they sell.
I don't think they deserve to take a cut of a players jersey sales, I don't know where you came up with these ideas.
If they aren't paid to practice, then they are already being paid more than minimum wage. What is the argument based on, then?

Edit: Using my old example, with practice time removed: They have worked 84 hours for their performances in games and other appearances. Minimum wage would be $609 dollars. They are making more than that.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Do SI swimsuit models get a cut of the magazine sales? Not trying to be a dick, I honestly don't know. I'd figure if you pay them to do the modeling, they wouldn't get a cut of the profits on top of that.

Like jballa said, it would obviously be a case to case basis for appearances, but I'd say $100 per game and $50 or $20/hour for appearances, whichever is greater and nothing for practices. It's going to end up still being less than minimum wage if you calculate in time spent practicing...
I'm not sure how S.I. works, but I'm sure those models get a very large sum to pose as do most elite models. I don't think they would require or need a cut from the magazine sales.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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If they aren't paid to practice, then they are already being paid more than minimum wage. What is the argument based on, then?
Because it's difficult to justify paying for practice, Idk how that would work, if they can get that, ok problem solved. But I think you may have to raise the per game salary, and as we discussed, pay for appearances and merchandise sales, also look into the other allegations being made that are against existing labor laws.

But it's clear the 44 million dollar man, Goodell is a criminal, and the organizations that keep the profits made on the cheerleaders are right there with him.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Because it's difficult to justify paying for practice, Idk how that would work, if they can get that, ok problem solved. But I think you may have to raise the per game salary, and as we discussed, pay for appearances and merchandise sales, also look into the other allegations being made that are against existing labor laws.

But it's clear the 44 million dollar man, Goodell is a criminal, and the organizations that keep the profits made on the cheerleaders are right there with him.
Hate to break it to you, but legal and fair do not mean the same thing. There is nothing illegal about making profits while paying contractors what amounts to more than minimum wage.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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Hate to break it to you, but legal and fair do not mean the same thing. There is nothing illegal about making profits while paying contractors what amounts to more than minimum wage.
And it's hard to say the wage is "unfair" when their job takes little to no skill at all and they could be easily replaced.
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