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Old 04-30-2014, 12:33 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by Nastradamus View Post
Mosley on the other hand is a guy I like more as I watch him. Its just his health that bothers me.
Pretty well right on. Health is definitely hurting his rankings.
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Old 04-30-2014, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Draftniks hate safeties that do "there job". If he was horribly over aggressive and was getting beat deep for TDs but also racking up ints then he'd be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Haha is worth a top 15 pick. Do it all player.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Draftniks hate safeties that do "there job". If he was horribly over aggressive and was getting beat deep for TDs but also racking up ints then he'd be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Haha is worth a top 15 pick. Do it all player.


Taylor Mays 'did his job' at USC. Didn't make him a great or even decent pro.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Taylor Mays 'did his job' at USC. Didn't make him a great or even decent pro.
Mays didn't have the instincts or fluidity.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Mays didn't have the instincts or fluidity.
Just pointing out that saying a player did his job within his college scheme doesn't mean a whole lot in projecting him to the next level.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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He also said earlier that it was obvious that Ward and Bucannon were better than Clinton-Dix and Pryor. I don't have a problem with thinking they're better, although I disagree with it, but it's certainly not obvious.
That was my problem, the obvious part. Ward is a very good athlete and has nice range but I don't see Haha getting beat often against far superior athletes in the SEC so I'm not sure how one makes the case that Ward has obviously superior range.

And yes, I think Haha is being driven up by position need. I also think it's hard to pass on a prospect without many flaws. There's not much purely bad tape of Haha out there. For a position meant to be the last line of defense, that's really nice to see. He also is a Pl good tackler; go watch him take Manziel down in open field tackles on A&M tape. That's solid stuff.

Ward has bad tape, where he loses people in zone coverages. He's better in man. His lack of size shows up at times.

Bucannon has a lot of bad tape.

Pryor has a lot of bad tape.

Is a lot of it the talent on the Alabama defense? Maybe. But on the flip side he was facing much much better talent every game.

He has the best combination of consistent game tape and measureables in this class. It might not be as flashy but it's what you want out of a center fielder. It's so the reason some fans don't love him as a prospect. Be doesn't pop off tape with big hits or risky ints or lots of man coverage. He just sits back in deep zones and does his job very well.
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Old 04-30-2014, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jomoz View Post
He will follow in the long line of hyped Alabama defensive players who became mediocre NFL players:


Dee Milliner, CB, 1 round
Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, 1 round
Mark Barron, CB, 1 round
De'Quan Menzie, CB, 5 round
Kareem Jackson, CB, 1 round
Javier Arenas, CB, 2 round
Marquis Johnson, CB, 7 round
Rashad Johnson, S, 3 round

And now this guy.
So Alabama DBs are the new PSU RBs or FSU DEs?
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Why do people assume because a kid played at a certain school with a certain coach that he can't succeed? Didn't we learn anything from Aaron Rodgers?

Dix is a stud.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Why do people assume because a kid played at a certain school with a certain coach that he can't succeed? Didn't we learn anything from Aaron Rodgers?

Dix is a stud.
The same Aaron Rodgers who sat for 3 full years before playing? Real great example there.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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I think HCD is the most polished safety in the class, but I do not think he has the most upside in the draft. He would be the safest pick at safety.

I think the safety with the most upside is Bucannon.

He has the best physical skill set in the draft and while people say he has a weakness in coverage he creates a number of big plays and I watched a couple of games where I saw very few coverage issues.

Put a little more polish on Bucannon and he could be the best safety in the draft.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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So nobody is saying that Clinton-Dix is anything near an elite talent.
Why then is he being projected around the #10 pick in a draft this deep overall?
Reaching for safeties?

Again, his film and measurements tell me he's for sure not the best S in this class, free or strong.

Only time will tell.
He's not going 10th. This draft has a lot of good players, and he's just one in the mix. The top of the draft is absolutely loaded from 1-7, then you have studs like Donald, ODBJ, Cooks, the corners, Ebron, etc. HHCD is right there, but only a few of those guys in the 2nd/3rd tier are clearly superior investments. HHCD not being an elite safety prospect but going in the teens or early 20s doesn't tell us anything about this class. It just means he's a solid bet for the NFL. If he was elite (and I'd argue if he was just a tick more athletic - he would be), he'd go top 5.

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Taylor Mays 'did his job' at USC. Didn't make him a great or even decent pro.
Taylor Mays' college tape never ever translated well to the NFL game. C'mon you know better than that. He's not near HHCD and he shouldn't be mentioned in this thread.

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Why do people assume because a kid played at a certain school with a certain coach that he can't succeed? Didn't we learn anything from Aaron Rodgers?

Dix is a stud.
If people would just do the damn work and study each individual, they wouldn't have to make decisions to back up some narrative. Guys bust all the time. You can't just say "he's overrated because past Bama DBs have busted." Players bust at every position from every school. Well over half of draft picks bust/don't pan out. If there is some underlying reason why Saban's DBs are destined to fail more than other players, by all means share it, because the NFL teams don't know it. Judge a player's traits and what they do on the field. Studying a draft prospect is not about college football. You're trying to project them to a very different game. DeQuan Menzie not being a quality pro player has absolutely NOTHING to do with Ha Ha.

Anyway, I just did a bunch of Dix...

...

...

...

and very impressive football player. He doesn't have ideal range, but he moves very well and has CB-good feet. He can tackle, and he knows how to play man, and he's smart. He'd step in Week 1 and be a better safety than half the starters in the NFL - and that's very valuable and worth a pick in the teens, especially with the demand for safeties. If he had 4.4 wheels he'd be a top prospect. I think his floor is Malcolm Jenkins. His poor game against Auburn was concerning but he was stellar in the other ones I watched.

Not sure I understand those asking for more and coming away unimpressed. His tape is way better than Eric Reid's was. The only issue I have is that he's a hair late on some plays. If he had a little more explosiveness and athleticism he'd be a complete stud. But he's fluid and smart and can play man against TEs and slot WRs - and that's a quality starting safety in the NFL well worth a first-round pick.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Watching them play, all of the Safeties seem a step too slow. Maybe that's just me. However that would lead me to believe someone cast as an in-the-box SAF might be most likely to succeed. Ha-Ha just looks terribly average IMO. This season he wasn't even the best SAF on his team.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Who do you think was better, Sunseri or Collins? Collins did seem to make a bunch of impact plays but I wasn't focusing on his movement skills or traits at all.

I must have watched the Bama/TAMU game 5 times for each prospect. I'm almost thinking it's going to end differently each time.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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That was my problem, the obvious part. Ward is a very good athlete and has nice range but I don't see Haha getting beat often against far superior athletes in the SEC so I'm not sure how one makes the case that Ward has obviously superior range.

And yes, I think Haha is being driven up by position need. I also think it's hard to pass on a prospect without many flaws. There's not much purely bad tape of Haha out there. For a position meant to be the last line of defense, that's really nice to see. He also is a Pl good tackler; go watch him take Manziel down in open field tackles on A&M tape. That's solid stuff.

Ward has bad tape, where he loses people in zone coverages. He's better in man. His lack of size shows up at times.

Bucannon has a lot of bad tape.

Pryor has a lot of bad tape.

Is a lot of it the talent on the Alabama defense? Maybe. But on the flip side he was facing much much better talent every game.

He has the best combination of consistent game tape and measureables in this class. It might not be as flashy but it's what you want out of a center fielder. It's so the reason some fans don't love him as a prospect. Be doesn't pop off tape with big hits or risky ints or lots of man coverage. He just sits back in deep zones and does his job very well.
Again, not my intent to offend those of differing opinions. To me , there is a significant gap between Bucannon/Ward and Pyror/Clinton-Dix, and that's why I used "obviously."

I have a very different take on Clinton-Dix and Ward. If you watch the A&M game, he's consistently a step or two steps late in coverage. He made a big hit (good, legal hit) on the sideline, but more often than not he didn't get there in time - usually in a 2-deep, so he only had half the field. I like his Oklahoma game better. He spends more time in the box, and he looks good in the box.

With Ward, I see a guy who covers a lot more ground, is in on a lot more plays, and is almost never late on a coverage assignment. The one play I remember him misdiagnosing came against Utah St. (end-around flea flicker, I believe). Ward bit on the fake, but he made it from the -> 44YL to the ->2 YL in time to break up the pass.

I think Clinton-Dix will be a good player, but I don't see a guy who didn't make many plays in college making a lot of plays in the NFL. Ward is the better athlete, and he makes more plays (INT's, PD's, tackles, FF's, blocked punts). I'm not concerned about lack of competition, because he was great against FSU, and he was great at the Senior Bowl.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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HCD is not over rated. I think he is rated very appropriately.

He is the safest safety to pick in the draft.

He is a very similar prospect to Vaccarro and he will be drafted in a similar spot. Neither is Sean Taylor as a prospect and neither should go top 10, but they will start as rookies and be good pros.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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Honestly I think Ward will get banged up in the Pros. He is tiny and he looks even smaller on film.

Very tough for undersized safeties to be successful long term.

I honestly cannot think of a starting safety that has his measurables.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Honestly I think Ward will get banged up in the Pros. He is tiny and he looks even smaller on film.

Very tough for undersized safeties to be successful long term.

I honestly cannot think of a starting safety that has his measurables.
Same size as Ed Reed entering the NFL.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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Same size as Ed Reed entering the NFL.
1 guy.

Hardly a strong statement for sub 200lbs safeties.

Ed Reed was also 201lbs at the combine.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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Same size as Ed Reed entering the NFL.
Wow one player over a decade ago, real compelling argument there.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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Earl Thomas played under 200 lbs at Texas, and he's now listed at 202 with Seattle. If you remember, when he added the weight for the combine, a lot of people called BS.

If you're looking for the best two FS's of the last 20 years, Ward is more similar in size than is Clinton-Dix.

But you guys feel free to pump false prototypes.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Who do you think was better, Sunseri or Collins? Collins did seem to make a bunch of impact plays but I wasn't focusing on his movement skills or traits at all.

I must have watched the Bama/TAMU game 5 times for each prospect. I'm almost thinking it's going to end differently each time.
Collins. He just pops off the screen more than any really any of the other Bama defenders this past season. He seems to fly to the ball. That was his first year getting starting action, so he's probably not too refined, but this next year will be a good measure of his ability as pretty much everything in that secondary will be resting on his shoulders.
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Old 05-01-2014, 09:26 AM    (permalink
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Taylor Mays 'did his job' at USC. Didn't make him a great or even decent pro.
Um, no, Mays in college was the opposite of the kind of safety he's talking about.

Still, a top 15 S has to make a decent amount of splash plays
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Um, no, Mays in college was the opposite of the kind of safety he's talking about.

Still, a top 15 S has to make a decent amount of splash plays
I was only addressing the statement that HHD did his job at Alabama as somehow excusing his lack of making big plays.

It was the same argument used for why Mays didn't make plays at USC.

It's not a question of ability or style of play at all.
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Old 05-01-2014, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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I have a very different take on Clinton-Dix and Ward. If you watch the A&M game, he's consistently a step or two steps late in coverage.

With Ward, I see a guy who covers a lot more ground, is in on a lot more plays, and is almost never late on a coverage assignment. The one play I remember him misdiagnosing came against Utah St.
See the problem here??

It's much easier to "cover more ground" when it's relative to a Utah State QB and WR than Manziel and NFL caliber A&M WRs.

That's where I think the misconception comes in. Ward only looks faster because the competition is so much slower.

I do think Ward is probably the 2nd best range safety behind Haha. So it's not that I think he's slow. But it's a mistake to underrate how well Haha covers deep.

In the end, Haha is the safest pick at safety and also has as much upside as anyone due to his size and athleticism. Ward has some size and character dings, Pryor has serious coverage and consistency dings, Buchannon is a lesser version of Pryor, etc..

Is he Eric Berry or Earl Thomas as a prospect? Nope. No one is this year.
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Old 05-02-2014, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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See the problem here??

It's much easier to "cover more ground" when it's relative to a Utah State QB and WR than Manziel and NFL caliber A&M WRs.

That's where I think the misconception comes in. Ward only looks faster because the competition is so much slower.

I do think Ward is probably the 2nd best range safety behind Haha. So it's not that I think he's slow. But it's a mistake to underrate how well Haha covers deep.

In the end, Haha is the safest pick at safety and also has as much upside as anyone due to his size and athleticism. Ward has some size and character dings, Pryor has serious coverage and consistency dings, Buchannon is a lesser version of Pryor, etc..

Is he Eric Berry or Earl Thomas as a prospect? Nope. No one is this year.
I don't know why you only quoted part of the post. In that post, I address the competition issue. Against FSU, he had 11 solo tackles, a QB hurry, and a PBU. He was all over the field. He was often called the best cover DB at the Senior Bowl - CB or S. Clinton-Dix has never posted more than 6 solo tackles in a game. So we've seen Ward play against guys every bit as fast as any SEC team, and we've seen him play at a very high level.

Also, and I've addressed this in previous posts, Ward tested as the much better athlete. 40, vert, broad, 3-cone - all better for Ward.
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