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Old 05-01-2014, 10:29 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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Default Difficult Teams to Mock

Just a little fun Mock Draft discussion thread.
I noticed some teams are hard to peg who they might take when doing mock drafts.

Dolphins

They need an OL. Robinson, Lewan, Matthews, and Martin will all be gone before 19. That pick is a little rich for Bitonio. I think either trade down or up if they want OL....but if they stay who would they take at another position?

Raiders

They are tricky. Not just b/c they never pick the player they should, but they are the 5th pick in a draft with 4 clear cut elite players. If Clowney/Mack/Watkins/Robinson are the top 4 picks like a lot of experts are thinking they will be, do the Raiders nab a QB (Bortles?) or the high-rising Mike Evans?....or even an OT (Lewan?). Interesting spot.

Cowboys

Similar to Miami. They need DLine. Clowney and Mack and Donald will be gone. Barr probably will be too, but you never know. 16 is too rich for Ford, Ealy, Jernigan, Hageman, etc. Who do they take at 16 if there are no DL of value?

Chiefs

Watkins, Evans, Beckham, and probably Cooks will be taken before pick 23. If Marqise Lee is too, I think the Chiefs are SOL, and would be wise to move down and take a receiver in round 2. Kelvin Benjamin I think is a round 2 guy. This is a deep receiver class. Hard to peg what they would take at 23 if not WR though.

There are a few others, but those seem the hardest.
Discuss....add yours.....etc.
GO.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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San Diego Chargers?
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:33 AM    (permalink
MassNole
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Just a little fun Mock Draft discussion thread.
I noticed some teams are hard to peg who they might take when doing mock drafts.

Dolphins

They need an OL. Robinson, Lewan, Matthews, and Martin will all be gone before 19. That pick is a little rich for Bitonio. I think either trade down or up if they want OL....but if they stay who would they take at another position?

Raiders

They are tricky. Not just b/c they never pick the player they should, but they are the 5th pick in a draft with 4 clear cut elite players. If Clowney/Mack/Watkins/Robinson are the top 4 picks like a lot of experts are thinking they will be, do the Raiders nab a QB (Bortles?) or the high-rising Mike Evans?....or even an OT (Lewan?). Interesting spot.

Cowboys

Similar to Miami. They need DLine. Clowney and Mack and Donald will be gone. Barr probably will be too, but you never know. 16 is too rich for Ford, Ealy, Jernigan, Hageman, etc. Who do they take at 16 if there are no DL of value?

Chiefs

Watkins, Evans, Beckham, and probably Cooks will be taken before pick 23. If Marqise Lee is too, I think the Chiefs are SOL, and would be wise to move down and take a receiver in round 2. Kelvin Benjamin I think is a round 2 guy. This is a deep receiver class. Hard to peg what they would take at 23 if not WR though.

There are a few others, but those seem the hardest.
Discuss....add yours.....etc.
GO.
How is an OT with no good film in pass protection a "clear cut" elite player?
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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You don't have to hijack every thread you know.
But I've heard people say numerous times that those four are considered the four "elite" players in this year's draft and will go top four in some order.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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San Diego Chargers?
Hmm....I've been giving them a cornerback. They are hurtin' there. Need two. Seems like a good spot to get Roby or Dennard even. Maybe even Dee Ford at OLB.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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You don't have to hijack every thread you know.
But I've heard people say numerous times that those four are considered the four "elite" players in this year's draft and will go top four in some order.
And you don't need to engage in absurd hyperbole to describe players.

People don't understand the concept of elite player, much less say as you said a "clear cut" elite player when there are rightful concerns he can't pass block. Regardless if ends up at LT or RT that is a major skill for an NFL OT that film suggests he does not have.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:46 AM    (permalink
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Not my words. The words of several other talking heads and experts.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Not my words. The words of several other talking heads and experts.
I have to agree with MassNole on this one, although you're absolutely correct that the majority of people consider Robinson an elite prospect. I just don't understand how you can label an OT prospect "elite" when part of his scouting report is that he'll have to learn how to pass block at the next level.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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That's great an all, but probably worthy of another thread besides this one.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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That's great an all, but probably worthy of another thread besides this one.
Yeah sorry about that. To stay on topic, are you really that convinced that Martin will be gone when the Dolphins pick? I guess this is mostly about what the teams will do if there's not an obvious player available for them.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Not my words. The words of several other talking heads and experts.
No one who calls an OT with major question marks about pass blocking elite ever qualifies an expert on the subject. Could he grow into an elite player? Certainly, but at this point he is one of the least experienced OLs to ever enter the draft and has no real good film showing he can pass block.

In fact in his last game, he was frequently abused by Mario Edwards Jr. in passing downs. Granted MEJ is a future first rounder himself, but still not what a "clear cut elite" player does in the biggest game of his life.
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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And you don't need to engage in absurd hyperbole to describe players.

People don't understand the concept of elite player, much less say as you said a "clear cut" elite player when there are rightful concerns he can't pass block. Regardless if ends up at LT or RT that is a major skill for an NFL OT that film suggests he does not have.
Not true. The film shows that you can't make a definitive statement on his pass pro. That does not mean he can't be good or even great it just means at this point you can't with any authority say either way. But he absolutely has the tools, hence why he is placed in such high regard
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Yeah sorry about that. To stay on topic, are you really that convinced that Martin will be gone when the Dolphins pick? I guess this is mostly about what the teams will do if there's not an obvious player available for them.
That's what it's sounding like. Kiper and Mayock are saying he'll definitely be gone by then, and I read a quote from someone else on rotoworld echoing that sentiment.

Yeah, Miami and Dallas are in tough spots for their biggest, most glaring needs which are by far OL and DL respectively. Oakland is just in a tough spot because they pick 5th and the 4 players that are very very widely considered the clear top 4 players in this draft will probably all be gone.....plus Oakland signed a QB and OT in free agency, so they don't have to take one of those, so there's not telling what they'll do.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Not true. The film shows that you can't make a definitive statement on his pass pro. That does not mean he can't be good or even great it just means at this point you can't with any authority say either way. But he absolutely has the tools, hence why he is placed in such high regard
Which means you can't label him a clear cut elite player either. If people want to use that term, then it should really only be applying to players who should be Pro Bowlers from day one. In this draft, I see Clowney, Mack, and Aaron Donald as those players. Players like Watkins, Evans, Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan are tremendous prospects, but all will need some adjustment time.

As it pertains to Offensive Linemen, my personal belief is unless we are talking an Orlando Pace type of player who was dominant from day 1 at the college level (so yeah pretty much only Orlando Pace in the past 20 years), their freshman film with pretty worthless. That creates the problem in evaluating Robinson as that's half of his available film, then no chance to see him in all star setting.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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I have to agree with MassNole on this one, although you're absolutely correct that the majority of people consider Robinson an elite prospect. I just don't understand how you can label an OT prospect "elite" when part of his scouting report is that he'll have to learn how to pass block at the next level.
Well about 90% of the OT's who come into the NFL need to learn how a pro pass protects. Very few are like a Matthews with superb technique, so I don't think it is a stretch to describe Robinson as an elite prospect. Most come into the league with great feet if they are LT's and solid intangibles, but their technique is very weak to say the least.

By MassNole description, nobody could ever be considered an elite prospect, because they are nowhere near a finished product when they come into the league and have an immense adjustment to make for pro ball. Peyton Manning throw something like 26 interceptions, his rookie year, so I guess he wasn't an elite prospect either.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Which means you can't label him a clear cut elite player either. If people want to use that term, then it should really only be applying to players who should be Pro Bowlers from day one. In this draft, I see Clowney, Mack, and Aaron Donald as those players. Players like Watkins, Evans, Robinson, Matthews, and Lewan are tremendous prospects, but all will need some adjustment time.

As it pertains to Offensive Linemen, my personal belief is unless we are talking an Orlando Pace type of player who was dominant from day 1 at the college level (so yeah pretty much only Orlando Pace in the past 20 years), their freshman film with pretty worthless. That creates the problem in evaluating Robinson as that's half of his available film, then no chance to see him in all star setting.
I agree with this. I really like Robinson but a lot of that is projection and in a way I'm taking a leap of faith. But sometimes you need to take those risks when the rewards are high, not every player will have great film across the board
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Well about 90% of the OT's who come into the NFL need to learn how a pro pass protects. Very few are like a Matthews with superb technique, so I don't think it is a stretch to describe Robinson as an elite prospect. Most come into the league with great feet if they are LT's and solid intangibles, but their technique is very weak to say the least.

By MassNole description, nobody could ever be considered an elite prospect, because they are nowhere near a finished product when they come into the league and have an immense adjustment to make for pro ball. Peyton Manning throw something like 26 interceptions, his rookie year, so I guess he wasn't an elite prospect either.
Yeah and that's why they aren't ELITE prospects. There's a difference between not being a finished product and being very raw and inexperienced in the area that is most important to success at your position. His ceiling is certainly very high but IMO elite prospects shouldn't be this much of a projection.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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I think Miami finds a trade partner with Dallas to trade up for Zack Martin if he's there for pick 16. Dallas will probably have Calvin Pryor fall to their lap at pick 19.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Just a little fun Mock Draft discussion thread.
I noticed some teams are hard to peg who they might take when doing mock drafts.

Dolphins

They need an OL. Robinson, Lewan, Matthews, and Martin will all be gone before 19. That pick is a little rich for Bitonio. I think either trade down or up if they want OL....but if they stay who would they take at another position?

Raiders

They are tricky. Not just b/c they never pick the player they should, but they are the 5th pick in a draft with 4 clear cut elite players. If Clowney/Mack/Watkins/Robinson are the top 4 picks like a lot of experts are thinking they will be, do the Raiders nab a QB (Bortles?) or the high-rising Mike Evans?....or even an OT (Lewan?). Interesting spot.

Cowboys

Similar to Miami. They need DLine. Clowney and Mack and Donald will be gone. Barr probably will be too, but you never know. 16 is too rich for Ford, Ealy, Jernigan, Hageman, etc. Who do they take at 16 if there are no DL of value?

Chiefs

Watkins, Evans, Beckham, and probably Cooks will be taken before pick 23. If Marqise Lee is too, I think the Chiefs are SOL, and would be wise to move down and take a receiver in round 2. Kelvin Benjamin I think is a round 2 guy. This is a deep receiver class. Hard to peg what they would take at 23 if not WR though.

There are a few others, but those seem the hardest.
Discuss....add yours.....etc.
GO.
Martin could be there for Miami, but if they go elsewhere Shazier or Mosely could be their guy.

Raiders truly could go a number of ways, and could be the recipient of one of the top 4 non QB prospects slipping if a QB comes off the board. Do they love (or strongly like) any of the top 4 QB's ? I also wouldn't be shocked to see them reach on someone who isn't a consensus top 5 pick (Evans, Lewan, Barr etc).

If no DL are of value to the Cowboys at 16, Martin and one of the top 2 safeties could entice here.

I think all 4 teams, KC included could go up or down (though more likely they go down not up).

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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Hmm....I've been giving them a cornerback. They are hurtin' there. Need two. Seems like a good spot to get Roby or Dennard even. Maybe even Dee Ford at OLB.
SD could also end up having Nix fall into their laps if they don't love a corner or see value in taking a rush backer.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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Seattle

Could go in a lot of directions. Need help on the offensive line, WR and DL but with where they're at (picking and talent wise) they could go strictly value or more likely trade down.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Well about 90% of the OT's who come into the NFL need to learn how a pro pass protects. Very few are like a Matthews with superb technique, so I don't think it is a stretch to describe Robinson as an elite prospect. Most come into the league with great feet if they are LT's and solid intangibles, but their technique is very weak to say the least.

By MassNole description, nobody could ever be considered an elite prospect, because they are nowhere near a finished product when they come into the league and have an immense adjustment to make for pro ball. Peyton Manning throw something like 26 interceptions, his rookie year, so I guess he wasn't an elite prospect either.
Do you understand how little film there actually is of him in pass protection at Auburn? Nick Marshall attempted an average of 17 passes a game and there are plenty of instances where he's lost in pass protection, and was lucky he wasn't frequently penalized for being too far down field on passing plays.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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I certainly think the Broncos are one of them. I am hoping a QB falls to #31 which will allow us to move down again and get some more picks from a team who is in need of a QB. I could see Denver going OL, DB, LB, WR or DL in the first. We have a great roster, it is really just picking positions where guys will be leaving in FA or retiring the next few seasons.

I just don't expect a top LB or DB to be on board @ #31 -- plenty of OL options as well as WR.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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I feel like almost every team is difficult to mock which should make this draft a lot of fun.
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Old 05-01-2014, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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I feel like almost every team is difficult to mock which should make this draft a lot of fun.
Hopefully the Browns do well for you, sir. I controlled them in a GM mock draft and only ended up with 7 picks. BOING.
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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I would say teams like Jacksonville and Oakland are really hard or really easy depending on perspective. Rose colored glasses aside, both teams are terrible and pretty much every position is a need. So BPA pretty much always works but which BPA do they go for?

I would see St. Louis or Tampa Bay as the harder teams to mock. Both are firmly in the running to pick a top level QB prospect, but both have very intriguing options in house.

From the Pats perspective, it is vexing, but in reality it isn't that hard to mock them. No huge gaping holes, but I guess you could skew towards OL/DL. A bunch of the teams at the back end are in a similar position, like those mentioning Seattle.
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