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Old 04-24-2007, 12:24 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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Now I still feel Jim Brown is certianly the frontrunner, but how could there only be one definite answer?
Because of the rest of what I said. He dominated his sport like no other.

Only player to retire with more TD's than games played in (LT and Shaun Alexander are both on pace, but it's taken this long to get that).

Only player to finish his career with a greater than 5.0 YPC average.

Only player to Average OVER 100 yards per game rushing. 104.3 YPG. 2nd place is Barry Sanders with 99.7.

1 of only 2 players to make the Pro Bowl every single year he played (Barry Sanders)



And it's a wonder why he was the best at all this, I mean, he was not only the strongest RB in the game, but also the fastest. He was just better than everyone else.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Because of the rest of what I said. He dominated his sport like no other.

Only player to retire with more TD's than games played in (LT and Shaun Alexander are both on pace, but it's taken this long to get that).

Only player to finish his career with a greater than 5.0 YPC average.

Only player to Average OVER 100 yards per game rushing. 104.3 YPG. 2nd place is Barry Sanders with 99.7.

1 of only 2 players to make the Pro Bowl every single year he played (Barry Sanders)



And it's a wonder why he was the best at all this, I mean, he was not only the strongest RB in the game, but also the fastest. He was just better than everyone else.
He also didn't face the same kind of competition that many of the other players had to face, which could be a reason for his lofty numbers and YPC. I'm not saying he's not the GOAT, but if you think there is no debate, than I think you come off as a really shallow fan.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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He also didn't face the same kind of competition that many of the other players had to face, which could be a reason for his lofty numbers and YPC. I'm not saying he's not the GOAT, but if you think there is no debate, than I think you come off as a really shallow fan.
You can debate all you want, there is just only 1 correct answer.

And you can't compare past players by modern standards. Babe Ruth wouldn't even make the major leagues today, but he dominated HIS ERA. You have to look at what the player did in his era.

Plus, Brown was a 6'2" 235 pound back who was a track athlete and faster than everyone else. Essentially Steven Jackson with better speed. You're telling me he wouldn't STILL be a top notch runner today?
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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You can debate all you want, there is just only 1 correct answer.

And you can't compare past players by modern standards. Babe Ruth wouldn't even make the major leagues today, but he dominated HIS ERA. You have to look at what the player did in his era.

Plus, Brown was a 6'2" 235 pound back who was a track athlete and faster than everyone else. Essentially Steven Jackson with better speed. You're telling me he wouldn't STILL be a top notch runner today?
No I didn't say that once. I said twice that he is probably the frontrunner for GOAT.

But there's not only one correct answer. There may be, but no one will ever know it, because its all subjective to what a person feels are the most important things for a player to have. And you said you can't compare past player by modern standards, but you compared Brown to LT, Alexander, and Sanders in areas that only Brown looks better in.

Besides, if we are looking at what players did in there era, than Sanders dominated an era in which the competition was at an even playing field and players and defenses were more complex and focussed. Whose to say that shouldn't carry more weight with what he did, than what Brown did dominating a weaker era?

There's not one right answer, its all opinion and speculation.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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No I didn't say that once. I said twice that he is probably the frontrunner for GOAT.

But there's not only one correct answer. There may be, but no one will ever know it, because its all subjective to what a person feels are the most important things for a player to have. And you said you can't compare past player by modern standards, but you compared Brown to LT, Alexander, and Sanders in areas that only Brown looks better in.
I compared how well they dominated their eras. ;)

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Besides, if we are looking at what players did in there era, than Sanders dominated an era in which the competition was at an even playing field and players and defenses were more complex and focussed. Whose to say that shouldn't carry more weight with what he did, than what Brown did dominating a weaker era?

There's not one right answer, its all opinion and speculation.
Sanders didn't dominate to the point that Brown did. If LT keeps up the TD pace, he'll dominate like Brown did in that era, but he's not even close to the same YPC.


Sanders is the only one who came close, but he could not do what Brown could do.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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I compared how well they dominated their eras. ;)
Oh yeah, i know i got that. But what I'm saying is that Brown's era was much easier to dominate, becase most of the players could not focus on football in the offseason to get stronger becasue they had other jobs. Defenses weren't coached the same way, they weren't as competitve. What I was saying was even though LT, Alexander, or Sanders don't dominate their era to the same extent Brown did, whose to say that the "dominance" they had, though to a lesser extent, was not actually more impressive than what Brown did.


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Sanders didn't dominate to the point that Brown did. If LT keeps up the TD pace, he'll dominate like Brown did in that era, but he's not even close to the same YPC. Sanders is the only one who came close, but he could not do what Brown could do.
Same argument I made in the first part of my post here, whose to say what they do isn't more important or more noteworthy in a more competitve era. That's why I'm saying there isn't one definitve answer because all these great players are different and bring differnet things to the table. For example, you can't really compare(or its hard too) Running backs like Steven Jackson and Larry Johnson as to who is better because they are different style runners.

Now I'm just going off the top of my head, because I don't know what kind of reciever he was, but I doubt he did the same thigns receiving that some of those backs like LT, Sanders, Payton could have done and did as recievers.

Every player is differnt, so its hard to establish a best.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Oh yeah, i know i got that. But what I'm saying is that Brown's era was much easier to dominate, becase most of the players could not focus on football in the offseason to get stronger becasue they had other jobs. Defenses weren't coached the same way, they weren't as competitve. What I was saying was even though LT, Alexander, or Sanders don't dominate their era to the same extent Brown did, whose to say that the "dominance" they had, though to a lesser extent, was not actually more impressive than what Brown did.




Same argument I made in the first part of my post here, whose to say what they do isn't more important or more noteworthy in a more competitve era. That's why I'm saying there isn't one definitve answer because all these great players are different and bring differnet things to the table. For example, you can't really compare(or its hard too) Running backs like Steven Jackson and Larry Johnson as to who is better because they are different style runners.

Now I'm just going off the top of my head, because I don't know what kind of reciever he was, but I doubt he did the same thigns receiving that some of those backs like LT, Sanders, Payton could have done and did as recievers.

Every player is differnt, so its hard to establish a best.
As I said, you can't compare it that way, it's illogical to do so. Every player in every era had to live in the world they played in. Players had the same rules, surroundings, etc. Babe ruth played against 4 man rotations, but so did everyone else in the league. Jim Brown played against less sophisticated defenses, so did all the other RB's in the league. Yet he was the one who dominated. You can't cross eras, you can only compare how each player did in their own era's.
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Old 04-24-2007, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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As I said, you can't compare it that way, it's illogical to do so. Every player in every era had to live in the world they played in. Players had the same rules, surroundings, etc. Babe ruth played against 4 man rotations, but so did everyone else in the league. Jim Brown played against less sophisticated defenses, so did all the other RB's in the league. Yet he was the one who dominated. You can't cross eras, you can only compare how each player did in their own era's.
So then you can say Jim Brown was the greatest player of that era, but it's impossible to know for certain if he's the greatest of all time. It's illogical and naive to say something like that too. You said you can't cross eras which is exactly my point. Since you can't do that, it's impossible to say whose the best...
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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So then you can say Jim Brown was the greatest player of that era, but it's impossible to know for certain if he's the greatest of all time. It's illogical and naive to say something like that too. You said you can't cross eras which is exactly my point. Since you can't do that, it's impossible to say whose the best...
No, you are missing the point. You can't pluck one player out of an era, stick him in another, and say "well he wouldn't be able to do it in there." That makes no sense. You can only compare how he dominated his own surroundings with how another dominated their own surroundings.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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You can debate all you want, there is just only 1 correct answer.

And you can't compare past players by modern standards. Babe Ruth wouldn't even make the major leagues today, but he dominated HIS ERA. You have to look at what the player did in his era.

Plus, Brown was a 6'2" 235 pound back who was a track athlete and faster than everyone else. Essentially Steven Jackson with better speed. You're telling me he wouldn't STILL be a top notch runner today?
Your ignorance is mind-boggling! While Jim Brown was an amazing athlete in his day, some could argue he may have been a better Lacrosse player then football player but he is not the clear cut GOAT. He certainly is in the discussion but there is no stand up decision. You mention Babe Ruth, but he faced sub par pitching for the most part and was part of a devastating lineup. Not too mention Ty Cobb was a hell of a player in his own right. What about basketball with Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Magic, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, etc. There is no slam dunk winner in there debates, so for you to state with such defiance that it is Jim Brown all your doing is discrediting yourself and showing all of us that you have no clue when it comes to sport discussions.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Your ignorance is mind-boggling! While Jim Brown was an amazing athlete in his day, some could argue he may have been a better Lacrosse player then football player but he is not the clear cut GOAT. He certainly is in the discussion but there is no stand up decision. You mention Babe Ruth, but he faced sub par pitching for the most part and was part of a devastating lineup. Not too mention Ty Cobb was a hell of a player in his own right. What about basketball with Bill Russell, Michael Jordan, Magic, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, etc. There is no slam dunk winner in there debates, so for you to state with such defiance that it is Jim Brown all your doing is discrediting yourself and showing all of us that you have no clue when it comes to sport discussions.

Read the rest of the thread and all the answers to your questions are there.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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No, you are missing the point. You can't pluck one player out of an era, stick him in another, and say "well he wouldn't be able to do it in there." That makes no sense. You can only compare how he dominated his own surroundings with how another dominated their own surroundings.
You're contradicting yourself....in an earlier post you plucked Jim Brown out of his era, and stuck him in the modern era and said hes a faster version of Steven Jackson!...

Look, there is no definitive answer. You may not be able to say "well he wouldn't be able to do that there" but you can say something like if LT or Sanders played back then they would have been just as dominant. You can say that because its speculation. Any time there is speculation involved in an argument, there will not and cannot be a definite answer. A bunch of times in this thread you have said you can't cross eras and then do, or you have said you can't pluck players out of a certain era, and than did. So you're the one whose missing the point here.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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then you're still making a flawed argument. baugh was astronomically better than any other quarterback who played during the same era. arguably, better ratio-wise compared to his peers than brown was in comparison to his. so if your argument is solely comparing players to others in their own era, there's STILL not a "single answer".
Baugh had 1 Pro Bowl appearance. He wasn't the best every year, he wasn't even in the top 3 any year but 1.

Jim Brown was the best RB every year of his career.


;)
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Baugh had 1 Pro Bowl appearance. He wasn't the best every year, he wasn't even in the top 3 any year but 1.

Jim Brown was the best RB every year of his career.


;)
You sir are a clown with your idiotic arguments.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Baugh had 1 Pro Bowl appearance. He wasn't the best every year, he wasn't even in the top 3 any year but 1.

Jim Brown was the best RB every year of his career.


;)
So then all a player needs to be considered the greatest is to have a lot of Pro Bowl appearances! You're being absurd right now...Many players even today get snubbed, and players who deserve to get it don't....

Tomlinson in 2003 had over 1600+ yards rushing, and 100 receptions and missed the pro bowl, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best RBs that year...
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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So then all a player needs to be considered the greatest is to have a lot of Pro Bowl appearances! You're being absurd right now...Many players even today get snubbed, and players who deserve to get it don't....

Tomlinson in 2003 had over 1600+ yards rushing, and 100 receptions and missed the pro bowl, that doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best RBs that year...

Way to twist my words.


Lol, pathetic.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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that's the stupidest thing you've said yet. the pro bowl didn't exist until 1971.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/probowl02/s/probowlhistory.html
Okay, good I thought there was something fishy with his pro-bowl argument, but did not want to debate that part, when i objected to so many others.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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that's the stupidest thing you've said yet. the pro bowl didn't exist until 1971.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/probowl02/s/probowlhistory.html
The Pro Bowl has existed since 1951, and before that they had the NFL All Stars, of which Baugh never played for.


Nice try though.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Way to twist my words.


Lol, pathetic.
I didn't twist anything, and if you can't tell, just about every other person here finds your argument pathetic. You disregarded Baugh simply because he did not make enough pro-bowls which you interpreted to mean he wasn't the best at his position.

Which is exactly what I said...
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Okay, good I thought there was something fishy with his pro-bowl argument, but did not want to debate that part, when i objected to so many others.
The merger happened, so th NFC-AFC Pro Bowl has only existed since 1971 because before that it was the "NFL Pro Bowl" and not the modern "NFC-AFC Pro Bowl"

The NFL Pro bowl existed from 1951 to 1970, and before that (starting in 1939) was the NFL All Star Game.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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actually, the All-Star game existed since 1939, two years after baugh's career started. what a joke that he he didn't make more before he was even playing. further, the "pro bowl" as it currently stands did NOT exist before 1971, and has NEVER been an accurate indicator of who the best players in the league are.

meanwhile, sammy baugh was an NFL all-pro 6 times, was the only player ever to lead the league in passing, punting and interceptions in a single season and remains one of the best punters in nfl history.

your argument is garbage.
Was he the best player every single year he played the game? Yes or no.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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Was he the best player every single year he played the game? Yes or no.
Go away you troll. Can I report his posts as an insult to intelligent thoughts?
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Was he the best player every single year he played the game? Yes or no.
Well I mean, just so you know...
Brown was voted MVP four times, meaning he wasn't the best player every single year himself....if pro bowl's are an indication of skill than MVP awards certainly should be too. Although he was a first-team NFL pick eight years, in 1962, he was not, which also means he was not always the best player. He also only played nine years, which is a limited and short career.
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Go away you troll. Can I report his posts as an insult to intelligent thoughts?
Hey, its a step up from the thread he started on if we should do away with the NFL draft...
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Old 04-24-2007, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Reputation: 23
Non_Sequitur hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDawg819 View Post
Go away you troll. Can I report his posts as an insult to intelligent thoughts?
Troll? I'm not trolling, I'm debating a legit argument. But if yall would prefer to debate this topic without someone sticking up for Jim Brown, then fine, have fun having your Sammy Baugh - Barry Sanders debate.
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