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Old 10-19-2006, 03:53 PM    (permalink
Number 10
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For the billionth time, I do not see Manning as an elite QB in this league. I have him ranked at #10, lower than most guys here have him who AREN'T Giants fans.

I have never said he is going to be a top 3 guy, I have never said he is going to be better than Peyton. But I will say time and time again, he is a better QB than Bledsoe, not a single doubt in my mind. He is proving me right this season and proving many of the Eli haters AKA Cowboys fans wrong. That is simply why I brought this thread back. And stop with your nitpicking--you take the small positive points of Bledsoe's games and try to use them to your advantage while taking the small negative points of Eli's games and also using them to your advantage. Both of them will continue to have ups and downs all year as will almost every QB, but Eli's highs will be higher and his lows will be lower because he is simply a better QB.
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Old 10-19-2006, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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DMW-

For the billionth time, I do not see Manning as an elite QB in this league. I have him ranked at #10, lower than most guys here have him who AREN'T Giants fans.

I have never said he is going to be a top 3 guy, I have never said he is going to be better than Peyton. But I will say time and time again, he is a better QB than Bledsoe, not a single doubt in my mind. He is proving me right this season and proving many of the Eli haters AKA Cowboys fans wrong. That is simply why I brought this thread back. And stop with your nitpicking--you take the small positive points of Bledsoe's games and try to use them to your advantage while taking the small negative points of Eli's games and also using them to your advantage. Both of them will continue to have ups and downs all year as will almost every QB, but Eli's highs will be higher and his lows will be lower because he is simply a better QB.
Right. I understand that that is your stance. It's just a little confusing because you say that he is "only" (as if 10th is a modest ranking) about 10th in the league, and yet the substantiating parts of your arguments are constructed in such a way to make it sound like he is a great QB. I would tend to disagree slightly with that ranking, having him in more of the 12-14 range myself. I don't know. I've been impressed with Eli at times this year, and you can't deny that he's really improved his accuracy. Mid 60%s, if I'm not mistaken. But he plays in a system that allows for him put up numbers while still playing fairly poorly. The Seattle game is the best example of that. That was one of the bottom 10 performances by a QB this year, and yet he came out of it with nearly 300 yards passing and 3 TDs for a mid 80s rating.

Anyhow, maybe the problem here is not your evaluation of Eli, but maybe it's your evaluation of Bledsoe. I read a Scouts Inc. article this week ranking QBs in the league through 6 weeks of the season. Bledsoe was 19th behind some real laughers.

I don't think people realize how well he has played this year in stretches. He was awesome against the Jags to start the game. I mean, he was on fire. Then his back tightened up. He was excellent against Philly for long stretches, even WITH that pressure in his face, he just made 3 or 4 bad throws, which are making all the highlights.

He has only been really bad for two different stretches this entire season. From mid 2nd quarter til mid 4th quarter against the Jags, and early in the game + part of the 4th in the Eagles game. Besides those games he has been pretty sharp. But those two bad stretches cost us both games, or least that is the perception but they at least were key, and so Drew has been catching a lot of heat.

He was extremely good against the Skins. Do you know that we had 9 dropped balls in that game, four of which occurred on 3rd down past the sticks, and one of which was a TD? His stats came out looking just "ok", but he was razor sharp in that game and no one mentioned it. Tennessee game he was awesome in the first half, we got up big early in the 3rd and we ran the ball for the rest of the game. Of course it was Tennessee, so people discredit that. Then he was pretty good against the Texans last week, but again, it was the Texans.

Things have been a little uneven here and there, but he has not been the horrible QB that everyone would like to think he has based upon the NFL Live, Sportscenter and NFLTA spots claiming his job is/was in jeopardy.

However, all of these things are in the category of "excuses", which is to say that there is a reason - and maybe even a good one - but the bottom line is that it has to get better in the future or something has got to change. I think Bledsoe started to hit his stride a bit last week and will continue to do that from here on out. I think he has a really good game this weekend. Maybe after that you will have a little more respect for him.
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Old 10-19-2006, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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DMW-

For the billionth time, I do not see Manning as an elite QB in this league. I have him ranked at #10, lower than most guys here have him who AREN'T Giants fans.

I have never said he is going to be a top 3 guy, I have never said he is going to be better than Peyton. But I will say time and time again, he is a better QB than Bledsoe, not a single doubt in my mind. He is proving me right this season and proving many of the Eli haters AKA Cowboys fans wrong. That is simply why I brought this thread back. And stop with your nitpicking--you take the small positive points of Bledsoe's games and try to use them to your advantage while taking the small negative points of Eli's games and also using them to your advantage. Both of them will continue to have ups and downs all year as will almost every QB, but Eli's highs will be higher and his lows will be lower because he is simply a better QB.
Right. I understand that that is your stance. It's just a little confusing because you say that he is "only" (as if 10th is a modest ranking) about 10th in the league, and yet the substantiating parts of your arguments are constructed in such a way to make it sound like he is a great QB. I would tend to disagree slightly with that ranking, having him in more of the 12-14 range myself. I don't know. I've been impressed with Eli at times this year, and you can't deny that he's really improved his accuracy. Mid 60%s, if I'm not mistaken. But he plays in a system that allows for him put up numbers while still playing fairly poorly. The Seattle game is the best example of that. That was one of the bottom 10 performances by a QB this year, and yet he came out of it with nearly 300 yards passing and 3 TDs for a mid 80s rating.

Anyhow, maybe the problem here is not your evaluation of Eli, but maybe it's your evaluation of Bledsoe. I read a Scouts Inc. article this week ranking QBs in the league through 6 weeks of the season. Bledsoe was 19th behind some real laughers.

I don't think people realize how well he has played this year in stretches. He was awesome against the Jags to start the game. I mean, he was on fire. Then his back tightened up. He was excellent against Philly for long stretches, even WITH that pressure in his face, he just made 3 or 4 bad throws, which are making all the highlights.

He has only been really bad for two different stretches this entire season. From mid 2nd quarter til mid 4th quarter against the Jags, and early in the game + part of the 4th in the Eagles game. Besides those games he has been pretty sharp. But those two bad stretches cost us both games, or least that is the perception but they at least were key, and so Drew has been catching a lot of heat.

He was extremely good against the Skins. Do you know that we had 9 dropped balls in that game, four of which occurred on 3rd down past the sticks, and one of which was a TD? His stats came out looking just "ok", but he was razor sharp in that game and no one mentioned it. Tennessee game he was awesome in the first half, we got up big early in the 3rd and we ran the ball for the rest of the game. Of course it was Tennessee, so people discredit that. Then he was pretty good against the Texans last week, but again, it was the Texans.

Things have been a little uneven here and there, but he has not been the horrible QB that everyone would like to think he has based upon the NFL Live, Sportscenter and NFLTA spots claiming his job is/was in jeopardy.

However, all of these things are in the category of "excuses", which is to say that there is a reason - and maybe even a good one - but the bottom line is that it has to get better in the future or something has got to change. I think Bledsoe started to hit his stride a bit last week and will continue to do that from here on out. I think he has a really good game this weekend. Maybe after that you will have a little more respect for him.
You are strengthining my point.

You are coming down on Eli for a bad stretch he had in the 1st quarter at Seattle, saying that it should heavily downgrade his evaluation. But Bledsoe's poor stretches get a pass while his strong play is being praised by you.

WRs dropped his passes? No other QB has to deal with that right? The majority of Eli's INTs were not his fault this year but I don't sit here and cry about it because EVERY QB is a victim of dropped passes or balls that should have been caught. I could easily come down on Drew for putting the ball in a place where TO would have gotten his clock cleaned by some guy named Sean Taylor on a repeated basis. He saw pressure against Philly? So what!! Eli got sacked MORE than Drew did and he made an amazing 3rd down completion while being brought down by an Eagles defensive linemen in the 4th quarter.

Every QB has good and bad stretches. But Drew's bad stretches tend to be worse than others such as Eli, and his good stretches don't seem to be as good as some others such as Eli.
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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He is proving me right this season and proving many of the Eli haters AKA Cowboys fans wrong.

i hate when people make an argument and categorize a whole group of people into opinion when its really not true...im sure you would disagree if i said "all giants fans think eli is a top 5 qb and over hype him" because its not the case, ive never been an eli hater, honestly id prefer him over bledsoe...but im content with drew, i think TO causes some problems making him feel like he has to force balls to him during stretches to get him stats, but i question our offensive line...


i looked at tape of the saints game vs philly, and our game, brees had 2 feet in front of him to plant and throw even on a blitz, and drew was throwing off his back foot if even seeing the WR at all, we need to get in sync up front because it starts there, drew's not the fastest but neither is brees, if he cant get a quality amount of throws with a clear passing lane i wont begin to call him trash yet....
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Old 10-19-2006, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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You are strengthining my point.

You are coming down on Eli for a bad stretch he had in the 1st quarter at Seattle, saying that it should heavily downgrade his evaluation. But Bledsoe's poor stretches get a pass while his strong play is being praised by you.

WRs dropped his passes? No other QB has to deal with that right? The majority of Eli's INTs were not his fault this year but I don't sit here and cry about it because EVERY QB is a victim of dropped passes or balls that should have been caught. I could easily come down on Drew for putting the ball in a place where TO would have gotten his clock cleaned by some guy named Sean Taylor on a repeated basis. He saw pressure against Philly? So what!! Eli got sacked MORE than Drew did and he made an amazing 3rd down completion while being brought down by an Eagles defensive linemen in the 4th quarter.

Every QB has good and bad stretches. But Drew's bad stretches tend to be worse than others such as Eli, and his good stretches don't seem to be as good as some others such as Eli.
You are the king of taking things out of context, misconstruing them and then framing them in a way that suits your purposes. Eli Manning in the first 20 minutes or so against Seattle dug his team into such a big hole that they had no shot at ever getting back in it. Now, granted that the defense didn't help by allowing all those scores either, but to throw 3 picks in rapid succession that lead to 21 points by the opposition is something that 99% of the time is going to lose you the game. At no point in time this year has Drew Bledsoe ever had a stretch that bad.

Drew has hurt the team, but he hasn't cost the team games all by himself like Manning did in that game. So that is a point for him in this debate, one that you refuse to acknowledge.

As for the Washington game with the dropped passes......are you really that dim, because it seems like you would have to be pretending. OF COURSE all QBs have dropped passes. That is not what I was talking about. Usually you have one or two drops a game, most commonly balls that are harder to catch. In this case there were NINE of them that should have been caught, most of which were perfect passes. NINE. That is more in one game then we have in the rest of the season combined. Do you have a game like that from time to time? Yeah. Is it out of the ordinary. Of course it is, and you know it.

But the point was that there have been a combination of unlikely circumstances (all of which were one time type deals) that have conspired to make Bledsoe look worse than he really is. Jacksonville, his back. Washington, dropped passes. Eagles, complete mental breakdown on the O-line. And in the other two games (where, coincedentally enough, he was nearly perfect but is being discredited because of the competition) there is nothing to complain about.

So, for the future purposes, you know that his back has only been an issue on rare occasions, the offensive line is usually sharp mentally and has only allowed truly prohibitive pressure in one game this year, and the dropped passes was just a one time bad luck deal. So, from a purely theoretical standpoint it is reasonable to assume that he will play up to a higher standard from here on out in most games - just as he did in the two games where no extenuating circumstances where involved.

That is my line of reasoning. However, if these "things" continue to happen it will eventually just be a deal where you "are what you are" as BP likes to say, and maybe these random deals have become part of what Bledsoe is. However, I have two (really three) games of exceedingly sharp play this season to prove that that is probably not the case, along with a slew of games from last year where he did a ton of good things that you would deem him incapable of this year. So....I guess that's just where it stands right now.
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Old 10-19-2006, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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btw, and I know that this is a would-coulda-shoulda type deal, but I went back and did a rough calculation of yards lost due to the nine drops that we had using just the amount of yardage that the reciever had at the point where he dropped the pass, without all the possible YAC that he would have gained and I calculated roughly 75 yards lost due to drops. Now look at Bledsoe's numbers from that game:

19/38 - 237 - 2 - 0

Now add the completions and yardage:

27/38 - 312 - 3 - 0


It really transforms the stat line and gives you an idea just how big of an effect it had on his perceived performance.
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Old 10-20-2006, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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You are the king of taking things out of context, misconstruing them and then framing them in a way that suits your purposes. Eli Manning in the first 20 minutes or so against Seattle dug his team into such a big hole that they had no shot at ever getting back in it. Now, granted that the defense didn't help by allowing all those scores either, but to throw 3 picks in rapid succession that lead to 21 points by the opposition is something that 99% of the time is going to lose you the game. At no point in time this year has Drew Bledsoe ever had a stretch that bad.

Drew has hurt the team, but he hasn't cost the team games all by himself like Manning did in that game. So that is a point for him in this debate, one that you refuse to acknowledge.

As for the Washington game with the dropped passes......are you really that dim, because it seems like you would have to be pretending. OF COURSE all QBs have dropped passes. That is not what I was talking about. Usually you have one or two drops a game, most commonly balls that are harder to catch. In this case there were NINE of them that should have been caught, most of which were perfect passes. NINE. That is more in one game then we have in the rest of the season combined. Do you have a game like that from time to time? Yeah. Is it out of the ordinary. Of course it is, and you know it.

But the point was that there have been a combination of unlikely circumstances (all of which were one time type deals) that have conspired to make Bledsoe look worse than he really is. Jacksonville, his back. Washington, dropped passes. Eagles, complete mental breakdown on the O-line. And in the other two games (where, coincedentally enough, he was nearly perfect but is being discredited because of the competition) there is nothing to complain about.

So, for the future purposes, you know that his back has only been an issue on rare occasions, the offensive line is usually sharp mentally and has only allowed truly prohibitive pressure in one game this year, and the dropped passes was just a one time bad luck deal. So, from a purely theoretical standpoint it is reasonable to assume that he will play up to a higher standard from here on out in most games - just as he did in the two games where no extenuating circumstances where involved.

That is my line of reasoning. However, if these "things" continue to happen it will eventually just be a deal where you "are what you are" as BP likes to say, and maybe these random deals have become part of what Bledsoe is. However, I have two (really three) games of exceedingly sharp play this season to prove that that is probably not the case, along with a slew of games from last year where he did a ton of good things that you would deem him incapable of this year. So....I guess that's just where it stands right now.
You can't honestly believe that. Come on man, Ive seen the games just like you. Drew single handedly cost you the Jags game, and cost you the Philly game according to the same criteria you claim Eli cost us games. If Eli is "solely" responsible for the Seattle game, then the exact same can be said of Drew. I don't see how you can even debate that.

Either theyre both partly responsible for their losses, or both solely. It goes both ways. You can't single out Eli then turn around and make excuses for Drew. If Eli's INTs at Seattle cost them the game, then so did the 3 INTs at Jacksonville and that fatal INT against Philly. You know damn well if Eli threw that INT at Philly you'd be all over him and say he "cost us" the game. In fact, I believe you gave the excuse that Eli cost us the game by throwing a INT against Indy late. So if Eli is responsible for losing the game by throwing an INT late against Indy, how on earth is Drew NOT responsible for the Philly loss by throwing his INT? Youre being hypocritical in this one bro. Ive stayed away from this argument for the most part but you're just wrong on this one.
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Old 10-20-2006, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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btw, and I know that this is a would-coulda-shoulda type deal, but I went back and did a rough calculation of yards lost due to the nine drops that we had using just the amount of yardage that the reciever had at the point where he dropped the pass, without all the possible YAC that he would have gained and I calculated roughly 75 yards lost due to drops. Now look at Bledsoe's numbers from that game:

19/38 - 237 - 2 - 0

Now add the completions and yardage:

27/38 - 312 - 3 - 0


It really transforms the stat line and gives you an idea just how big of an effect it had on his perceived performance.
Holy cow. Wow.

That is one of the most ridiculous, far fetched posts I ever seen. You are getting absolutely ridiculous. I would never even think about compiling numbers for Eli that would exist if his WRs didn'tdrop balls that landed in the arms of the defense or routes that weren't run correctly...yada yada.

AND THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY THAT SAYS STATS DON'T MATTER!!!!!

Seems like they matter when they favor your argument.
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Old 10-20-2006, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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You are the king of taking things out of context, misconstruing them and then framing them in a way that suits your purposes. Eli Manning in the first 20 minutes or so against Seattle dug his team into such a big hole that they had no shot at ever getting back in it. Now, granted that the defense didn't help by allowing all those scores either, but to throw 3 picks in rapid succession that lead to 21 points by the opposition is something that 99% of the time is going to lose you the game. At no point in time this year has Drew Bledsoe ever had a stretch that bad.

Drew has hurt the team, but he hasn't cost the team games all by himself like Manning did in that game. So that is a point for him in this debate, one that you refuse to acknowledge.

As for the Washington game with the dropped passes......are you really that dim, because it seems like you would have to be pretending. OF COURSE all QBs have dropped passes. That is not what I was talking about. Usually you have one or two drops a game, most commonly balls that are harder to catch. In this case there were NINE of them that should have been caught, most of which were perfect passes. NINE. That is more in one game then we have in the rest of the season combined. Do you have a game like that from time to time? Yeah. Is it out of the ordinary. Of course it is, and you know it.

But the point was that there have been a combination of unlikely circumstances (all of which were one time type deals) that have conspired to make Bledsoe look worse than he really is. Jacksonville, his back. Washington, dropped passes. Eagles, complete mental breakdown on the O-line. And in the other two games (where, coincedentally enough, he was nearly perfect but is being discredited because of the competition) there is nothing to complain about.

So, for the future purposes, you know that his back has only been an issue on rare occasions, the offensive line is usually sharp mentally and has only allowed truly prohibitive pressure in one game this year, and the dropped passes was just a one time bad luck deal. So, from a purely theoretical standpoint it is reasonable to assume that he will play up to a higher standard from here on out in most games - just as he did in the two games where no extenuating circumstances where involved.

That is my line of reasoning. However, if these "things" continue to happen it will eventually just be a deal where you "are what you are" as BP likes to say, and maybe these random deals have become part of what Bledsoe is. However, I have two (really three) games of exceedingly sharp play this season to prove that that is probably not the case, along with a slew of games from last year where he did a ton of good things that you would deem him incapable of this year. So....I guess that's just where it stands right now.
You can't honestly believe that. Come on man, Ive seen the games just like you. Drew single handedly cost you the Jags game, and cost you the Philly game according to the same criteria you claim Eli cost us games. If Eli is "solely" responsible for the Seattle game, then the exact same can be said of Drew. I don't see how you can even debate that.

Either theyre both partly responsible for their losses, or both solely. It goes both ways. You can't single out Eli then turn around and make excuses for Drew. If Eli's INTs at Seattle cost them the game, then so did the 3 INTs at Jacksonville and that fatal INT against Philly. You know damn well if Eli threw that INT at Philly you'd be all over him and say he "cost us" the game. In fact, I believe you gave the excuse that Eli cost us the game by throwing a INT against Indy late. So if Eli is responsible for losing the game by throwing an INT late against Indy, how on earth is Drew NOT responsible for the Philly loss by throwing his INT? Youre being hypocritical in this one bro. Ive stayed away from this argument for the most part but you're just wrong on this one.
Your reasoning is sound, and I appreciate your approach as opposed to your compadres. But my point about the Colts game was that Eli threw the game clinching Int, and thus cost his team the game in that one. It would be exactly like what Bledsoe did against Philly. You're right there, and I wasn't saying otherwise.

However, my point about the Seattle game was that Eli Manning played so horribly for the first half of that game that he handed them tons of points while doing virtually nothing to "get it back", so to speak. No loss can really be attributed solely on one player, because there are always things that the other players could have done to mitigate the poor play of the one, like the Bears/Cards game. Grossman played the worst game at QB that any player has so far this year. He made Eli's performance against the Hawks look like Montana in the SB. But the defense and special teams made so many huge plays, and not just counting the TDs, but forcing FGs instead of TDs after the offense turned the ball over, holding strong on field position etc that it made up for how bad Grossman played.

So you can't technically say that Eli was the only reason that they lost, but he was by far the most significant one. My point in the comparison is that Bledsoe has never been in that position where he was hurting the team at that level. Yes, he was bad in spots during the Jags game and during the end of the Eagles game. But you have to remember, if you want to blame him for the bad Int in the endzone that ended the game, you have to also credit him for the throw he made that would have been a TD is Michael Lewis hadn't interfered with Glen, which never even showed up on the stat sheet. He made a lot of plays that game.

Anyhow, this argument is going in a cirlce, and it is not going to bear fruit from here, so I'll bow out now.
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Old 10-20-2006, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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This is the last I will say of it as well. Its unfair to compare, because they both don't have the same defenses.

Its obvious to both of us that the Dallas defense is better than the Giants, and the Giants defense was abysmal the first 3 games. So when Eli makes a mistake, it hurts our team alot more superficially because the defense simply was unable to stop teams from scoring. In seattle for example, his first 2 INTs couldve been held to field goals, but the defense gives up 14 points. On top of that, Seattle literally scored a TD on their first 4 possessions. That is not solely Eli's fault, if he had a decent defense, they couldve came out of the first 4 possessions only down let's say 10-0. Thats very manageable. Instead its 28-0.

Bledsoe has the luxury of a great defense who can bail him out of bad situations. Now Im not saying that it does all the time, but Dallas's d saves Drew alot more than our D saves Eli. Eli is almost asked to score on every possession, Drew just has to limit mistakes. Big difference in responsibility. Now Im not gonna give Eli a pass, he clearly needs to improve in the area of turnovers, but let's not blame games solely on him. He's not playing CB, DT, or DE, and he's not our DC.

Like you said, we can beat this to death, and the argument will go no where, so let's just leave it as is.
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Old 10-20-2006, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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btw, and I know that this is a would-coulda-shoulda type deal, but I went back and did a rough calculation of yards lost due to the nine drops that we had using just the amount of yardage that the reciever had at the point where he dropped the pass, without all the possible YAC that he would have gained and I calculated roughly 75 yards lost due to drops. Now look at Bledsoe's numbers from that game:

19/38 - 237 - 2 - 0

Now add the completions and yardage:

27/38 - 312 - 3 - 0


It really transforms the stat line and gives you an idea just how big of an effect it had on his perceived performance.
Holy cow. Wow.

That is one of the most ridiculous, far fetched posts I ever seen. You are getting absolutely ridiculous. I would never even think about compiling numbers for Eli that would exist if his WRs didn'tdrop balls that landed in the arms of the defense or routes that weren't run correctly...yada yada.

AND THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY THAT SAYS STATS DON'T MATTER!!!!!

Seems like they matter when they favor your argument.
Now I understand why you have that moniker beneath your name. You should try to take a page out of your boy BBD's book and learn how to have a reasonable back and forth instead of super-homer charged ranting. Read my disclaimer before my post, go look at the normal amount of drops/yardage lost in a regular game and then come back and talk to me. I'm done with responding to your crap.
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Old 10-20-2006, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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btw, and I know that this is a would-coulda-shoulda type deal, but I went back and did a rough calculation of yards lost due to the nine drops that we had using just the amount of yardage that the reciever had at the point where he dropped the pass, without all the possible YAC that he would have gained and I calculated roughly 75 yards lost due to drops. Now look at Bledsoe's numbers from that game:

19/38 - 237 - 2 - 0

Now add the completions and yardage:

27/38 - 312 - 3 - 0


It really transforms the stat line and gives you an idea just how big of an effect it had on his perceived performance.
Holy cow. Wow.

That is one of the most ridiculous, far fetched posts I ever seen. You are getting absolutely ridiculous. I would never even think about compiling numbers for Eli that would exist if his WRs didn'tdrop balls that landed in the arms of the defense or routes that weren't run correctly...yada yada.

AND THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY THAT SAYS STATS DON'T MATTER!!!!!

Seems like they matter when they favor your argument.
Now I understand why you have that moniker beneath your name. You should try to take a page out of your boy BBD's book and learn how to have a reasonable back and forth instead of super-homer charged ranting. Read my disclaimer before my post, go look at the normal amount of drops/yardage lost in a regular game and then come back and talk to me. I'm done with responding to your crap.
You do seem to be only a stat guy when it is convinient for you. All offseason you claimed Bledsoe was better because of completion percentage. I said if better completion percentage doesn't lead to more TDs, less INTs, and more importantly more WINS than what does it matter. Emphasizing on the wins because you claim that is the QBs #1 responsibility and I agree with that. But last year when Eli had one more win he wasn't close to Bledsoe because of stats. Now that Eli has better stats and the same amount of wins, you says what does it matter both have led their teams to the same amount of wins (3).
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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btw, and I know that this is a would-coulda-shoulda type deal, but I went back and did a rough calculation of yards lost due to the nine drops that we had using just the amount of yardage that the reciever had at the point where he dropped the pass, without all the possible YAC that he would have gained and I calculated roughly 75 yards lost due to drops. Now look at Bledsoe's numbers from that game:

19/38 - 237 - 2 - 0

Now add the completions and yardage:

27/38 - 312 - 3 - 0


It really transforms the stat line and gives you an idea just how big of an effect it had on his perceived performance.
Holy cow. Wow.

That is one of the most ridiculous, far fetched posts I ever seen. You are getting absolutely ridiculous. I would never even think about compiling numbers for Eli that would exist if his WRs didn'tdrop balls that landed in the arms of the defense or routes that weren't run correctly...yada yada.

AND THIS IS COMING FROM A GUY THAT SAYS STATS DON'T MATTER!!!!!

Seems like they matter when they favor your argument.
Now I understand why you have that moniker beneath your name. You should try to take a page out of your boy BBD's book and learn how to have a reasonable back and forth instead of super-homer charged ranting. Read my disclaimer before my post, go look at the normal amount of drops/yardage lost in a regular game and then come back and talk to me. I'm done with responding to your crap.
You have the nerve to call me a homer when you are thinking up pretend scenarios to boost your QBs stats up after telling me stats don't matter? For your own sake, don't respond because you dig your hole deeper and deeper with every post you make.
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Old 10-22-2006, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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You do seem to be only a stat guy when it is convinient for you. All offseason you claimed Bledsoe was better because of completion percentage. I said if better completion percentage doesn't lead to more TDs, less INTs, and more importantly more WINS than what does it matter. Emphasizing on the wins because you claim that is the QBs #1 responsibility and I agree with that. But last year when Eli had one more win he wasn't close to Bledsoe because of stats. Now that Eli has better stats and the same amount of wins, you says what does it matter both have led their teams to the same amount of wins (3).
Listen, my point with stats all along has been that you take them with a large dose of common sense and "eye-ball" leve evaluation. Taken on their own, stats rarely tell the truth. The thing your boy #10 is missing is that I'm not trying to say that Bledsoe has been better than Eli so far, but just that both have been equally up-and-down, and that I would only give Eli the advantage so far by virtue of his performance late in the Philly game.

My point with all my stat references (including my last post on the level of effect that the drops vs. Washington had on his line) is merely to illustrate how the raw comparison of stats vs. stats between the two is not the end-all-be-all of the Bledsoe/Manning debate.

It's funny, because now you guys are flipping around and using the same logic on everyone else that was used upon you all throughout the off-season. I understand that you and #10 specifically are a little pent up from having to deal with people throwing comp% and QB rating in your face all offseason long, but that doesn't justify going hog-wild in jumping on Eli's nice stat line while ignoring all common sense evaluation of his actual play.

I'm not even sure what #10 is saying anymore, he's so rabid and frothing at the mouth that I can't even make a point to him.

My intent all through this thread was to mitigate some of the blind homerism that was going on with the nudge-nudge-isn't-it-so-obvious-that-all-the-"haters"-were-wrong-don't-they-look-stupid talk that was going on with just a little bit of realism.

It's hilarious how you guys (well, at least #10) talk like Eli has just risen up and slammed the door on the arguments that were being presented earlier in this thread (during the pre season) when he has done nothing but prove us right, with the possible exception of his vast improvement in his comp%.

If you guys want a stat, I'll give you one, and it's the most relevant stat of the discussion. One number: 7

That's the number of Ints that Bledsoe has thrown, and in all honesty that is the only reason that anyone is talking negatively about him. He has turned the ball over a lot, and in key spots as well in our two losses. So let's be clear about that. He hasn't had a hard time moving the ball. He hasn't had a hard time getting us into the endzone. His only problem has been giving it to the other guy.

But, you know what? Manning has the exact same amount! But somehow because he has more yards, more TDs, a higher % and all that it makes it OK that he has that many? Doesn't make any sense.

Again, this whole thing is going to work itself out. Bledsoe is going to hit his stride here soon, TO will start asserting himself in the offense, and this thing could really start to take off. I don't think this will be up for argument in a couple of weeks, but if somehow it doesn't turn out that way, I'll be the first to come clean and say I was wrong.
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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Cmon now guys. Im a cowboy fan, and this is my take.

Eli Manning>>>>>>Bledsoe
Tiki Barber + Jacobs = Julius + Marion
Shockey = Witten
Plax and Amani< T.O and Glenn
Giants O-line = Cowboys O-line

Therefore, my conclusion rests that since Eli is a better QB than Bledsoe and a MUCH better QB under pressure, Giants hold a SLIGHT advantage. Defense is a different story.
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:31 AM    (permalink
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Cmon now guys. Im a cowboy fan, and this is my take.

Eli Manning>>>>>>Bledsoe
Tiki Barber + Jacobs = Julius + Marion
Shockey = Witten
Plax and Amani< T.O and Glenn
Giants O-line = Cowboys O-line

Therefore, my conclusion rests that since Eli is a better QB than Bledsoe and a MUCH better QB under pressure, Giants hold a SLIGHT advantage. Defense is a different story.
Hard to disagree with that. Id take Witten over Shockey though. Manning is a bum and Bledsoe is an even bigger one. Oh well...
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Old 10-23-2006, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Cmon now guys. Im a cowboy fan, and this is my take.

Eli Manning>>>>>>Bledsoe
Tiki Barber + Jacobs = Julius + Marion
Shockey = Witten
Plax and Amani< T.O and Glenn
Giants O-line = Cowboys O-line

Therefore, my conclusion rests that since Eli is a better QB than Bledsoe and a MUCH better QB under pressure, Giants hold a SLIGHT advantage. Defense is a different story.
I think the Giants Oline is a little better than the Cowboys. I also have to say Tiki + Jacobs is better than the two the Cowboys have. Tiki leads the league in rushing and Jacobs is busting off 5.2 a clip when spelling him. That one isn't that close although Jones has been playing better of late. To me it is hard to say they are equal when Parcells tells Jones to pop in a tape of Tiki rushing and try to do what he does.
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Old 10-23-2006, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Cmon now guys. Im a cowboy fan, and this is my take.

Eli Manning>>>>>>Bledsoe
Tiki Barber + Jacobs = Julius + Marion
Shockey = Witten
Plax and Amani< T.O and Glenn
Giants O-line = Cowboys O-line

Therefore, my conclusion rests that since Eli is a better QB than Bledsoe and a MUCH better QB under pressure, Giants hold a SLIGHT advantage. Defense is a different story.
I am not happy with the Giants O-line, but they are a lot better than the Cowboys O-line hands down.

RB duos are at least debatable but like Jug said, Jones is not in the same league as Barber and Jacobs is averaging over 5 YPC.
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ncbigbody
Cmon now guys. Im a cowboy fan, and this is my take.

Eli Manning>>>>>>Bledsoe
Tiki Barber + Jacobs = Julius + Marion
Shockey = Witten
Plax and Amani< T.O and Glenn
Giants O-line = Cowboys O-line

Therefore, my conclusion rests that since Eli is a better QB than Bledsoe and a MUCH better QB under pressure, Giants hold a SLIGHT advantage. Defense is a different story.
I think you are just a tad confused on this one, bro. Are you doing "level of play so far" or the actual ability, talent and future prospects of the players involved? If it is the second one, then it will be something like this:

Bledsoe > or = Manning
Tiki >>>> Julius (and that is not a knock on Julius)
MB3 > or = Jacobs
TO >>> Plaxico
Glenn >>> Amani
Witten ~ Shockey
Giants OL > or = Cowboys OL


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Originally Posted by Jughead10
I think the Giants Oline is a little better than the Cowboys. I also have to say Tiki + Jacobs is better than the two the Cowboys have. Tiki leads the league in rushing and Jacobs is busting off 5.2 a clip when spelling him. That one isn't that close although Jones has been playing better of late. To me it is hard to say they are equal when Parcells tells Jones to pop in a tape of Tiki rushing and try to do what he does.

As great as Julius is playing, Tiki is right there in any discussion for Best RB in the league. The only guy I would take over him right now is LT, and with the way he's been limited lately I might not even do that. That said, if JJ can stay healthy and keep improving, I can see him developing into a Tiki type down the road. He has everything it takes.

Before you guys get bent out of shape about me saying that Marion Barber is at least as good or better than Jacobs, just look at the production. Barber is averaging 5ypc as well, and he has way more carries, yards and TDs.

The OL debate is a lot closer than I would have thought before the year began. As is, I think we have played just a little bit better, but the Giants have better prospects for future success. I'll give them the edge of this one.
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Before you guys get bent out of shape about me saying that Marion Barber is at least as good or better than Jacobs, just look at the production. Barber is averaging 5ypc as well, and he has way more carries, yards and TDs.
The total carries and yards that Marion Barber has over Jacobs is more of a testimate of how much better Tiki is than Jones. On a lot of teams Jacobs would be getting a lot more carries but when his carries take away from Tiki it is a fine line to walk. Of course I would like to see Jacbos get more carries but at the expense of taking them away from Tiki, I don't think so.

Also still defending Bledsoe I see when many other Cowboy fans and the rest of the world agree that he is not a great QB anymore. I think it is a big of an exagerration (mostly because of frustration) by the original poster about how much better Eli is than Bledsoe, but I tend to agree with him.
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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julious jones is about as underated at rb as you can get, the man is explosive, he's ripped off more then a couple games over 150 yds, and usually does it when the lights come in, wouldnt surprise me if he did it 2nite....


i really like our 1-2 punch, but the giants have tiki, and unless your the chargers you wont beat what they have thats just how that is, but even with ours not being as good, we are definately up there....


and as for the qb argument, maning and bledsoe do have the same number of int's, so if everyone wants to call bledsoe trash that almost brings eli down into the same level as well, BUT....


regardless of this whole argument for bledsoe and manning, does anyone else agree that 2nite will answer alot of questions about these 2 when they go head to head, and id feel it necessary to base most of that argument off of this game, either way it goes.....
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Old 10-23-2006, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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regardless of this whole argument for bledsoe and manning, does anyone else agree that 2nite will answer alot of questions about these 2 when they go head to head, and id feel it necessary to base most of that argument off of this game, either way it goes.....
It could and it could not. QBs can have great games in losing efforts. I have seen it before. QBs can also have bad games in winning efforts. It depends how the game is played out.
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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regardless of this whole argument for bledsoe and manning, does anyone else agree that 2nite will answer alot of questions about these 2 when they go head to head, and id feel it necessary to base most of that argument off of this game, either way it goes.....
It could and it could not. QBs can have great games in losing efforts. I have seen it before. QBs can also have bad games in winning efforts. It depends how the game is played out.

i didnt mean whose qb ended up with a W, i meant as far as trying to asses both of these qb's, not much of a better time then head to head when its on primetime...i want to see how eli starts the game, for the whole first half, and i want to see how drew handles pressure from a solid D and if he just looks for the open WR or feels pressured to throw the ball to TO
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Old 10-23-2006, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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regardless of this whole argument for bledsoe and manning, does anyone else agree that 2nite will answer alot of questions about these 2 when they go head to head, and id feel it necessary to base most of that argument off of this game, either way it goes.....
It could and it could not. QBs can have great games in losing efforts. I have seen it before. QBs can also have bad games in winning efforts. It depends how the game is played out.

i didnt mean whose qb ended up with a W, i meant as far as trying to asses both of these qb's, not much of a better time then head to head when its on primetime...i want to see how eli starts the game, for the whole first half, and i want to see how drew handles pressure from a solid D and if he just looks for the open WR or feels pressured to throw the ball to TO
I'll have to TIVO the game to do that. There is a very good chance I'll be out at a bar with a strong buzz leading towards being hammered while watching this game.
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Old 10-23-2006, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Also still defending Bledsoe I see when many other Cowboy fans and the rest of the world agree that he is not a great QB anymore. I think it is a big of an exagerration (mostly because of frustration) by the original poster about how much better Eli is than Bledsoe, but I tend to agree with him.

That is kind of my point in this whole deal. You must realize that roughly 95% of all fans are of the "casual" variety, and have their opinions dictated by media propaganda such as NFL Live, Total Access, Sportscenter and Inside the NFL. I am acutely aware of this this particular season because I've seen the discrepency between what has been reported in the on-going "TO Saga" vs. what has actually happened. It really is a disgrace.

The way this affects the Bledsoe situation is that it is the knee-jerk, rush-to-judgment analysis that is based more off of highlight reels and "inside sources", a.k.a. fabrications, than reality and honest-to-goodness analysis of his play.

The result is people like #10 who really haven't seen that much of him, don't know anything about the coaching staff's sentiments regarding his play, and yet feel like they are the experts on the situation because guys like Salisbury, Schlereth, Golic, Faulk and Schefter(don't even get me started on how unqualified this guy is to be analyzing football) are all slamming him and his ability.

Now, I understand that Bledsoe has not been all-world so far this season. I understand that he has struggled in the most important game he has played so far this year. But to simply ignore his production and excellence during the majority of the season while magnifying his mistakes, even if they were in crucial junctures, is the kind of skin-deep judgmental stupidity that I detest. All I am trying to do is provide a little levity to the discussion. I feel like a broken record here.
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