MMA Discussion Thread - SPOILERS! - Page 109

soybean · 03-02-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenikz

Seriously?...Penn over Silva?

Penn isn't that great, I don't know why everything thinks he is a MMA god. He is 3-3 over his last 6 fights with the wins being Renzo Gracie, Jens Pulver & Joe Stevenson, not the highest level of competition.

While Silva has destroyed the last 7 guys he has fought, basically all of them being top competition. his only losses in the last 3 years coming via DQ and a freak Flying Scissor/Heel Hook

yeah... i don't know everytime i watch penn, i love his style because he's very aggressive and his balance is amazing.

silva is great but i think he's more susceptible to being caught then BJ, he almost lost against... Travis Lutter was it?

but his muay thai is great and he's got long limbs so that would throw most fighters off.

ccB · 03-02-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenikz

Seriously?...Penn over Silva?

Penn isn't that great, I don't know why everything thinks he is a MMA god. He is 3-3 over his last 6 fights with the wins being Renzo Gracie, Jens Pulver & Joe Stevenson, not the highest level of competition.

While Silva has destroyed the last 7 guys he has fought, basically all of them being top competition. his only losses in the last 3 years coming via DQ and a freak Flying Scissor/Heel Hook

People think Penn is the number 1 because he has the most skill out of any fighter in MMA. He has arguably the best BJJ in the game, paired with freakish balance and takedown defense and underrated striking. When you say 3-3 yeah it doesnt sound great but break down the fights, instead of just looking at what his record is on Sherdog. I mean hell if all you do is look at the records, I believe Couture is on 16-8 and many believe hes the greatest fighter ever. One loss is to Lyoto Machida who is a freakin LHW, Penn is a natural 155 and fought Machida who is owning everyone left and right at LHW and he made it to a decision. Cant really blame him for losing that fight, give me a 155 fighter who will last more than 2 rounds with Machida. Matt Hughes was being owned until Penn suffered from a rib injury and if you ask most die hard MMA fans (myself included) Penn beat GSP on the score cards of that fight. So a natural 155 moving up to 170 and losing to the top 2 guys in the division, both in controversial manner. The guy is the only fighter in the world who could fight between 155-205 and still stand a chance to win at any weight class. So without an injury and say the GSP split decision went in his favor, he could be 14-2-1 with 2 wins over Hughes a win over GSP, Gomi, Pulver, Stevenson, Din Thomas, Caol Uno, Gracie, Ludwig and Matt Serra and everyone would be drinking his Kool aid as top p4p fighter in the world. I personally do not have Penn as number one, but I think he does have the number 1 skillset in MMA and after he gets the momentum moving he is going to be unstoppable at 155, than he will move up to fight for that WW belt and if he takes it home everyones going to have him as the top fighter in the world.

Another thing, wouldn't you place a guy who can fight at multiple weights higher on a P4P list than a guy who is only a force at one weight?

ccB · 03-02-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenikz

Honestly I can't see anyone beating Silva right now, he may be the best fighter ever. His style is somewhat unorthodox but it seems to work against everything, no one wants to stand and throw punches with him and if you try to take him to the ground eventually your gonna get choked out. After a long night of drinking I still can't think of anyone who matches up well with him, Henderson was my best guess.

btw I probably sound like a Silva nut hugger as Sherdog people would call it, but can anyone thing of someone who could challenge Silva besides GSP?

Matt Lindland, has the same skillset as Dan Henderson but he is smarter when it comes to keeping himself out of danger.

ccB · 03-02-2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soybean

i still think BJ Penn is the pound-for-pound best fighter.

no way he'd fight silva though, i dont see him gaining that much weight or silva losing that much weight to take the fight.

Penns faught at 185 before I believe, and I think you are right with your assessment, if they met up Penn would stand a chance to beat Silva, his cardio would be his only set back. I do not know how many round he could last at 185 but BJ's BJJ is leagues better than Andersons and I do not Anderson KO-ing BJ, he has one of the best chins in MMA. Youd have to take Anderson in that fight but you cant right off BJ Penn either.

bwillie26 · 03-02-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenikz

Seriously?...Penn over Silva?

Penn isn't that great, I don't know why everything thinks he is a MMA god. He is 3-3 over his last 6 fights with the wins being Renzo Gracie, Jens Pulver & Joe Stevenson, not the highest level of competition.

While Silva has destroyed the last 7 guys he has fought, basically all of them being top competition. his only losses in the last 3 years coming via DQ and a freak Flying Scissor/Heel Hook

Did you REALLY just say Penn was not that great? Wow.

Ravens1991 · 03-02-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charm City Byrdgang

Matt Lindland, has the same skillset as Dan Henderson but he is smarter when it comes to keeping himself out of danger.

But he doesnt have Dan KO power.

About best P4P I admit that BJ Penn is probably the most naturally talented fighter in MMA(GSP a close second) but it has to go to Anderson, he is unstoppable now, let Penn get on a streak then I may consider it.

Ravens1991 · 03-04-2008, 03:22 PM

Shogun out of Chuck fight due to knee injury.

http://mmajunkie.com/?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

UKfan · 03-04-2008, 03:23 PM

Damn it, Chuck vs Shogun was supposed to happen in London, that sucks!

cordscords · 03-04-2008, 03:32 PM

:(

Brandon Vera might move down.

bwillie26 · 03-04-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cordscords

:(

Brandon Vera might move down.

That has been rumored for a LONG time. He needs to, anyways. You can look at his body type and realize he just should not carry that extra weight to be a top flight fighter as he does not carry it well. At 205, he could legitimately be a contender for the belt in no time.

cordscords · 03-06-2008, 12:42 AM

Rashad Evans will be stepping in for Shogun.

Evans is gonna get his first loss here.

Rob S · 03-06-2008, 06:23 AM

Penn-haters, read this. Not mine, but an awesome post at sherdog..

I see a lot of newer fans (I'm not going to say TUF fans) who say that BJ is over-rated. I can even understand a little, because if i'd only been a fan for 2-3 years I may think the same thing.

So I am going to try not being condescending, and am actually going to try explaining to you why he is so highly regarded. I became a die-hard MMA fan about a year before his debut so I think I am in a good position for this.

Firstly, his BJJ game and credentials are as good as anybody in the game. This is why he is called the prodigy, the first US fighter to win the gold in Brazil.

So following his short and sensational career as a BJJ fighter he turned to MMA, and fans were already talking about him - before he had even fought. He was so highly regarded that his debut was in the UFC!

His opponent was Joey Gilbert, a gimme. BJ as expected dominated Gilbert.

Around this time Jens Pulver had just won the LW title, and the UFC was trying to get a superfight for him. So they brought in Din Thomas.

Din Thomas had fought all over the world, he was a known top class fighter and had stopped Jens Pulver previously. Not only that but he gave Caol Uno a hell of a fight in his only loss.

Din's UFC debut was against Penn. The vast majority of people thought that this was a gimme for Din before his big rematch with Jens, and in truth that was probably Zuffa's plans.

BJ Penn at only 22, and in only his second MMA fight KO'd Thomas in a couple of minutes. Trust my guys this was sensational at the time - Think Gonzaga-Cro Cop (only to a lesser extent because Thomas didn't have so many nut-huggers)

The next fight for BJ was probably to punish him for ruining the UFC's plans

It is hard to remember/believe, but at the time Uno was recognised as a top 3 fighter, and a guy who on his day could beat anybody in the world.

BJ Penn's destruction of Uno was probably the biggest 'coming-out party' in MMA history. He KO'd him in 11 seconds!

As an example could you imagine a 22 year old guy with only 2 fights destroying Gomi in 11 seconds?

That is what it was like.

I liken it to Sokoudjo this year, or Shogun in 2005. A metoric rise to fame like no other.

Uno had beaten Iha, Thomas, Sato twice and he had been overwhelmed in seconds by an in-experienced kid who was supposedly a grappler.

I remember the net at this time, and BJ Penn was probably the most talked about guy in the sport.

His next fight was with Pulver, a close decision loss. However he proved he was more than a match for the champion by having a picture-perfect armbar applied as the round ended.

Even though he lost he proved that he was no flash in the pan.

His next 3 fights were underwhelming, facing Creighton, Serra and Uno in lackluster affairs. The rematch with Uno was so controversial, and I still can not fathom how he didn't win the title in that fight. This gave fans sympathy for Penn.

At this time Penn was pissed, and vowed to prove that he was the number one guy in the world.

So he went out and on his own money put together a fight with unbeaten Takanori Gomi. You know how these days everybody makes threads "Who'd win Sherk or Kid Yamamoto?" etc

This was the same thing. A dream fight for fans between two guys in different organisations.

Unfortunately Gomi lost a decision to Hansen just over a month before the superfight, which made the fight anti-climatic.

It was still highly anticipated though, and Penn dominated Gomi. In a way which Gomi has never been dominated before or since. This is another easy thing to overlook, but directly after the Penn fight, Gomi signed for Pride and dominated for a couple of years. Just a testament to how good BJ truly is.

Following that Penn returned to the UFC and announced that he was going up in weight to fight Hughes.

Matt Hughes at that time was honestly viewed as Fedor is now. He was the top P4P guy in the world and was seen unbeatable.

Fans worldwide thought this was a huge mistake and there were threads on sherdog with titles such as 'RIP BJ' etc

What happened is the equivalent of Chuck Liddell moving to HW and dominating Fedor. It was unfathomable.

Writing this it is really hitting home how easy it is to forget the situations etc, how easy it is to downplay a win a few years later.

BJ lost a lot of fans with his next move - myself included. UFC warned him that as champion he could not fight in other organisations - he ignored them and went to K1.

Bang Ludwig was a rising superstar at the time, he was riding high with wins in his last two fights over Pulver and Sudo. Ludwig-Penn was the fight fans wanted to see, and they got it.

Like man vs boy, Bang was dominated and BJ Penn cemented his status as the P4P king.

In another of those easy to forget things, Rodrido Gracie was viewed as the next great Gracie. He was undefeated and coming off a huge win over Mach Sakurai.

When Penn announced he was moving up to MW to fight him people honest to god thought he was crazy.

He did though, and dominated the next great Gracie.

His next move was to crazy even for him. I remember when it was announced he moving to HW to fight undefeated sensation Machida there were people saying they were going to stop being fans of his because he was too ir-rational.

Fears were confirmed, and Penn lost. However it was a razor-thin decision that could easily have gone his way.

Think about it. Machida has dominated everybody he has fought, including brutal stoppages of Bonnar and Franklin, he is currently considered the biggest prospect in the LHW division. Yet he barely beat a guy fighting at least 50 pounds over his ideal weight. You guys still wanna say that BJ is over-rated?

I will not go into his next 3 fights because I assume that you guys know what happened.

Personally I groan everytime I read that Penn is over-rated. I he an MMA superstar, and one of the elite fighters of all time.

He has beaten 7 fighters who at the time were considered elite, Not only has he beaten them, he has dominated all but one (Serra)

Thomas
Uno
Serra
Ludwig
Gomi
Gracie
Hughes

So please next time you wanna type that Penn is over-rated, remember this post.

There is never an easier time to tell when a fan is uneducated, and when he explains that he doesn't know why Penn is so respected.

UKfan · 03-06-2008, 06:40 AM

I can't understand the lack of respect for Penn's skills, you may not like him as a person (I don't), but his BJJ and stand up skills are immense. He has flexibility like no other, it's insane.

cordscords · 03-06-2008, 07:26 PM

Fedor is splitting from M-1 next week and is set to become a FA yet again.

Don't screw up again Dana. Make Fedor-Couture happen, in an octagon, by the end of Coutures contract.

MaxV · 03-08-2008, 12:24 PM

Recent article about Fedor's status.

http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles.asp?n_id=11698

I especially like this quote by Dana White:

Quote:

People think he's the best -- I don't, not even close. But if it's somehow possible, I would make it happen.

It's ok not to think that Fedor is the best, but to say "not even close" is just flat-out STUPID.

Someone needs to remind Dana that his current HW champ, Noguera, got his ass kicked by Fedor on multiple occasions.

Ravens1991 · 03-08-2008, 10:47 PM

Can Dana White just leave MMA all together, he does nothing positive for MMA or the UFC.

bwillie26 · 03-09-2008, 12:28 AM

I guess Kimbo vs Shamrock will never happen now. Ken was TKO'd by a fighter named Robert 'Buzz' Berry tonight. I watched the fight on Showtime and I must say, Ken needs to retire yesterday. The shot he got hit with wasn't clean and more of a glancing blow at that. But he crumbled like the Shamrock we have seen lately.

What I don't understand is Ken was known for his submissions from all angles when he was at the top of his game, but now he wants to stand and trade with people. He even said this Buzz Berry guy was a stand-up fighter with KO power, but he stands with him anyways?

Ken needs to do himself a favor and retire. Him staying around is the equivalent to Tyson right now. He's just ruining his legacy.

Ravens1991 · 03-09-2008, 09:51 AM

they will probably give Kimbo him so he can KO a known fighter.

UKfan · 03-09-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravens1991

Can Dana White just leave MMA all together, he does nothing positive for MMA or the UFC.

You serious? I know that he is a bit of a dick, but he's been huge for the sport and in the time he and Zuffa have been involved, the UFC has grown immeasurably.

fenikz · 03-09-2008, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob S

So please next time you wanna type that Penn is over-rated, remember this post.

There is never an easier time to tell when a fan is uneducated, and when he explains that he doesn't know why Penn is so respected.

BJ Penn is still over-rated IMO, he isn't even a top 5 p4p guy for me, I don't care if you have the skills to win, you have to use them and actually win against talented opponents for anything to matter. It seems like he has turned the corner on his training and is actually showing up to fights prepared so he could be a top 5 p4p guy soon with a couple good wins(Sherk & a few other contenders) but right now I'm still not buying it.

And btw I actually don't mind him as a person I thought his "If you want my opinions go to BJPenn.com" thing was funny as hell

ccB · 03-11-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UKfan

You serious? I know that he is a bit of a dick, but he's been huge for the sport and in the time he and Zuffa have been involved, the UFC has grown immeasurably.

Yeah I am in agreement. Dana White has arguably done more for the sport than anyone. People just buy into his "tough guy whose **** doesn't stink" bit. Dana White is from the Vince McMahon school of knowing how to work and how to sell fights. Sure I could see how someone could dislike him if they take everything he says as gospel, but you'd be foolish to do that. He is a character for sure but its all schtick. I for one <3 DW.

Also word up to Schubie Doobie for dropping some BJ Penn knowledge. After Sherk, Penns going after the 170 belt right away so within the next year you could see BJ Penn with 2 belts and everyone dangling from his coconuts.

soybean · 03-11-2008, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charm City Byrdgang

Yeah I am in agreement. Dana White has arguably done more for the sport than anyone. People just buy into his "tough guy whose **** doesn't stink" bit. Dana White is from the Vince McMahon school of knowing how to work and how to sell fights. Sure I could see how someone could dislike him if they take everything he says as gospel, but you'd be foolish to do that. He is a character for sure but its all schtick. I for one <3 DW.

i believe tito is up there as well.

619 · 03-11-2008, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soybean

i believe tito is up there as well.

Royce Gracie and more recently Chuck Liddell.

JF4 · 03-13-2008, 04:33 PM

http://mmajunkie.com/news/3928/nbc-a...-exclusive.mma

Looks like NBC is following in CBS' footsteps and having a weekly MMA show on their network. The deal is with Strikeforce.

Honestly, I really don't like all these exclusive TV deals with smaller organizations. Here's why:

1) The fighters just aren't top notch

2) MMA is now being overexposed.

3) MMA is becoming like boxing with so many organizations that the casual fan doesn't know which is which.

4) Once these shows get rolling, the organzitions are going to be making more and more money and will start picking away at the better fighters in the UFC. That will spread out all the talent, and it won't allow for some of the best fights between the best fighters.

fenikz · 03-13-2008, 04:44 PM

This is all fine with me, just means i get to watch more free MMA