MMA Discussion Thread - SPOILERS!

[Complex]

Didn't read any of it besides the 1st couple of sentences and you are delusional if you don't think UFC a american champion. Anyways


RJ Clifford ‏@RJcliffordMMA
Dan Henderson says he tore his knee two and a half weeks ago. Didn't know how bad it was gonna be. Was told an MCL heals quickly

BestofBJJ ‏@BestofBJJ
Did Chael start taunting Jones knowing Henderson was injured 3weeks ago? What do yo think?


Chael is a great warrior.

[AntoinCD]

Dana White is so pissed at Jones because he tried to get away with putting on a ****** undercard yet still bring in the money because of the main event. It was absolutely, ridiculously arrogant of him and it backfired.

Now I understand why people are upset at Jones for not taking the fight. He could have taken the fight, won easily and moved on. This is the fan approach. It is the same fans who ***** and moan about paying full price to go to preseason games and the same fans who ***** and moan when players get hurt in preseason games.

Regardless of what people may say, this fight did absolutely nothing for Jones' career.

If he wins easy then he gets no credit because he was supposed to
If he wins a close decision then people start talking about maybe he isn't as good as we thought
If he loses then it puts his career back a number of years

Jon Jones did not cancel this event. He helped put a nail in the coffin, but Dana White killed this thing by not having any sort of contingency plan

[Cudders]

Originally Posted by Complex

Didn't read any of it besides the 1st couple of sentences and you are delusional if you don't think UFC a american champion.

Please explain to me how I’m delusional.

Right now, the UFC has four foreign fighters that are champions of their division in Aldo, GSP, Anderson, and JDS. All of them are popular in the United States. It’s not like these fighters don’t draw and then Ben Henderson shows up and crushes their numbers because he’s an American titleholder and stuff. Again, the UFC product has a domestic stranglehold on their competition. The next phase of growth for them is globalizing their brand and penetrating untapped foreign markets. That doesn’t necessitate American champions. Because people overseas don’t care about an American being pushed down their throat. Is it a source of pride for some of the jingoistic, flag-waving MMA meatheads? I don’t know. I suppose it might be. But guess what? The UFC has their business as it is and it is going nowhere. Those people aren’t their target demographic for further expansion.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Dana White is so pissed at Jones because he tried to get away with putting on a ****** undercard yet still bring in the money because of the main event. It was absolutely, ridiculously arrogant of him and it backfired.

This is where we can find some common ground. With the number of cards the UFC tries to pump out, I think Dana and the Fertitta brothers run these kind of risks and face the prospect of oversaturating themselves. This event was based around the strength of the headliner alone and the UFC didn’t add much else to the main card because the UFC doesn’t have enough main card-caliber fighters to promote the amount of cards on their calendar. I wouldn’t be against a small scaling back of the number of cards if it meant greater depth for existing cards.

UFC 150 was considered a weak event. Without Bones and Henderson, UFC 151 was quite weak, too. But, if both cards were combined, the situation wouldn’t be near as bleak. You would have two championship bouts at the top of the card and then a run of matches that shouldn’t be main events or co-main events, but are still solid, intriguing fights capable of opening a PPV. And it’s a much stronger card as a result.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Now I understand why people are upset at Jones for not taking the fight. He could have taken the fight, won easily and moved on. This is the fan approach. It is the same fans who ***** and moan about paying full price to go to preseason games and the same fans who ***** and moan when players get hurt in preseason games.

I’m not either of those people, and I’m irritated Jones didn’t take the fight.

Preseason games are marketed as tune-ups for the regular season. This was an anticipated championship bout under the bright lights of Las Vegas. The stakes couldn’t have been higher. And, like injuries are a part of football, the unpredictable element is a part of mixed martial arts. Upsets happen and fighters don’t remain undefeated. Jones declined the fight because he was worried about his preparations. So the fear of being uncomfortable or losing motivated him to back down. That more or less sums up the general sentiment around here. How ridiculous is that notion? It’s the fight game. The fight game isn’t a controlled environment and isn’t immune to something surprising happening. You know what, Jon? A.) The UFC doesn’t exist for the purpose of making Jon Jones feel 100% comfortable, champion or not. And B.) Jon Jones is no more entitled to pampering, champion or not.

Yushin Okami is at a delicate point in his career, too. He’s an aging fighter coming off back-to-back losses with one more push left at this point. At UFC 150, he was supposed to fight Luiz Cane. A dangerous striker. Cane got hurt. The UFC replaced him with Rousimar Palhares. A dangerous jiu-jitsu practitioner. Palhares got hurt. The UFC replaced him on short notice with Buddy Roberts. An unknown fighters with one promotional bout under his belt. Did Okami feel super comfortable fighting Roberts? I would guess not and I’m sure he was aware of the consequences of fighting him. If he beat Roberts, as expected, he wouldn’t move up much in the ranks, if it all. If he lost to Roberts, he would plummet even further down the middleweight ladder. Or might even be cut from the UFC altogether. Knowing all of that, did he decide to decline the fight? Nope.

Granted, Okami isn’t the crossover star that Jones is. But it illustrates that what the UFC asked of Jones wasn’t ridiculous. It’s commonplace for things like this to happen. It’s never been a huge deal until now.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

Regardless of what people may say, this fight did absolutely nothing for Jones' career.

He’s almost cleared out the LHW division. What does he expect? How did fighting Dan Hardy advance GSP’s career? How did fighting Patrick Cote advance Anderson’s career?

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

If he wins easy then he gets no credit because he was supposed to

See the two above examples. Or some of B.J. Penn’s defenses during his prime. Or some of Aldo’s recent defenses. Dominant champions clean out their divisions and sometimes have to fight someone that doesn’t belong in the Octagon with them because fresh blood is needed.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

If he wins a close decision then people start talking about maybe he isn't as good as we thought

Then go out there and prove it and throttle Chael. Or use a close decision to fuel the fire in the next fight.

Originally Posted by AntoinCD

If he loses then it puts his career back a number of years

Disagree here. It sets him back a few months. If Chael beat Bones, the UFC would’ve scheduled an immediate rematch. Chael would’ve become an even bigger loudmouth with an even bigger platform and the UFC wouldn’t have been able to resist the temptation of a fallen champion’s road to redemption after his belt was taken from him in a Serra-esque stunner. That plot promotes itself.

[Bengals78]

Originally Posted by Cudders

Yushin Okami is at a delicate point in his career, too. He’s an aging fighter coming off back-to-back losses with one more push left at this point. At UFC 150, he was supposed to fight Luiz Cane. A dangerous striker. Cane got hurt. The UFC replaced him with Rousimar Palhares. A dangerous jiu-jitsu practitioner. Palhares got hurt. The UFC replaced him on short notice with Buddy Roberts. An unknown fighters with one promotional bout under his belt. Did Okami feel super comfortable fighting Roberts? I would guess not and I’m sure he was aware of the consequences of fighting him. If he beat Roberts, as expected, he wouldn’t move up much in the ranks, if it all. If he lost to Roberts, he would plummet even further down the middleweight ladder. Or might even be cut from the UFC altogether. Knowing all of that, did he decide to decline the fight? Nope.

Granted, Okami isn’t the crossover star that Jones is. But it illustrates that what the UFC asked of Jones wasn’t ridiculous. It’s commonplace for things like this to happen. It’s never been a huge deal until now.

That's the whole point. Okami can't afford to say no. He NEEDS these fights to get back. Jones is there. He isnt going anywhere. No one has really come all too close to stopping him.

It is more ridiculous to ask your reigning champ, biggest star and most marketable fighter currently to fight a guy who just got his ass flat out stomped at 185.

A lot different than asking a guy who is in serious danger of being a full fledged journeyman/gate keeper to take on a no name.

[Bengals78]

Originally Posted by Cudders

He’s almost cleared out the LHW division. What does he expect? How did fighting Dan Hardy advance GSP’s career? How did fighting Patrick Cote advance Anderson’s career?

Okay, but those guys belonged in their respective weight classes. What if Hardy got hurt and asked GSP to fight Clay in 8 days? Sure they may have said yes, we don't know but the point is, it looks stupid to not even offer a chump 205'er at him at least.


Disagree here. It sets him back a few months. If Chael beat Bones, the UFC would’ve scheduled an immediate rematch. Chael would’ve become an even bigger loudmouth with an even bigger platform and the UFC wouldn’t have been able to resist the temptation of a fallen champion’s road to redemption after his belt was taken from him in a Serra-esque stunner. That plot promotes itself.

Except it ruins the perception of mystique that surrounds Jones. Will he be truly defeated? Will anyone make it close? Instead, you have a guy who lost to a loudmouth trash talker on 8 days notice. Sure the UFC can still sell it because of their monopoly on the sport and it could "ruin" Jones.

Especially if it was in Serra-esque fashion. He could become gun-shy and just work for the safe decision.

[Cudders]

Originally Posted by Bengals78

That's the whole point. Okami can't afford to say no. He NEEDS these fights to get back. Jones is there. He isnt going anywhere. No one has really come all too close to stopping him.

It is more ridiculous to ask your reigning champ, biggest star and most marketable fighter currently to fight a guy who just got his ass flat out stomped at 185.

A lot different than asking a guy who is in serious danger of being a full fledged journeyman/gate keeper to take on a no name.

Except this train of thought implies that Jon Jones’ career is more important than Yushin Okami’s. I don’t agree with that on a personal level. Both fighters pour their heart and soul into their fighting career. Yushin Okami, even though he isn’t a champion or popular fighter, has just as much to lose in that scenario as Jones does in his. But because Jones is a title-holding phenom, he should be held to an easier standard than less talented fighters? No. Jon Jones isn’t entitled to something more than Yushin Okami. Just because he earned the right to call himself champion doesn’t mean he earned the right to be babied.

You want to know the reason fighters have turned on him? That’s the reason. Because Jon Jones believes he’s above the show now. Like the UFC had the balls to ask him to fight someone he didn’t want to or he feels didn’t deserve to fight him. Well, guess what, Jon? It’s supposed to be the champion’s job to put down all comers. Not pick and choose who to defend against based on his comfort level with said opponent.

Originally Posted by Bengals78

Okay, but those guys belonged in their respective weight classes. What if Hardy got hurt and asked GSP to fight Clay in 8 days? Sure they may have said yes, we don't know but the point is, it looks stupid to not even offer a chump 205'er at him at least.

Chael stepped up. Anderson stepped up. Chris Weidman stepped up. Those are the three that we know of. Vitor hasn’t fought at 205 since 2007, but he was deemed an acceptable opponent for Jones. Truth be told, Alexander Gustafsson is the last exciting prospect left at 205, barring some rematches.

Originally Posted by Bengals78

Except it ruins the perception of mystique that surrounds Jones. Will he be truly defeated? Will anyone make it close? Instead, you have a guy who lost to a loudmouth trash talker on 8 days notice. Sure the UFC can still sell it because of their monopoly on the sport and it could "ruin" Jones.

And this hasn’t? Exigent circumstances or not, the dude just ducked Chael Sonnen. A middleweight with a career record of 27-12-1. That hurts his perception, too.

This is what I don’t understand. Would someone tell me what kind of serious threats Chael Sonnen poses to Jon Jones? Because, as far as I see it, he isn’t as threatening as his previous or future opponents. He is smaller than most. He doesn’t challenge Jones on their feet. He has a stronger shot than Henderson, but isn’t much different in the clinch and Jones comes from a Greco-Roman base himself, so it’s not like he’s never seen an experienced practitioner from that discipline before. And Henderson said Chael wasn’t even with him at Team Quest, so it’s not even like Chael had started drilling for Jones for weeks either, as Greg Jackson implicated. What about this match is so disagreeable? The off-chance that something freak happens? Jon Jones controls those things. If he takes Chael for what he is, and fights his fight, then the window for Chael to defeat him is almost negligible. The holes for Chael to exploit just aren’t there.

But what he did instead was moan about being given a favorable matchup and then took his ball and went home. Did Dana handle it well? No, he didn’t. There are a lot of things Dana could’ve done different, too. The bottom-line is Dana was dealing with unprecedented circumstances where a champion refused to fight a challenger. I can’t fault his back-up plan because I’m sure he never thought Bones would refuse the fight. After all, that’s never happened before.

And in the process of looking out for number one, Jon Jones has taken a serious hit among his fans and his fellow fighters. He has tweeted before about never, ever turning down a fight. Oops. He said weeks ago he would fight Chael Sonnen in a heartbeat. Oops again. If he didn’t want to fight Chael on a week’s notice, then fine. That’s his prerogative. But don’t talk a big game and then back down from it and not expect a strong backlash in response. Jon Jones isn’t the victim here. His actions precipitated this. Actions that he controlled.

Originally Posted by Bengals78

Especially if it was in Serra-esque fashion. He could become gun-shy and just work for the safe decision.

Greg Jackson is notorious for turning his fighters into the safest and smartest fighters possible. Even if that means grinding out decision after decision.

[Bert Macklin]

And Jon Jones really is a *****.

In light of the recent mess that was the cancelation of UFC 151, we still have yet to see the end of the aftermath. Not too many people came out of this looking great, except maybe Chael Sonnen, the unlikely "hero" in this story. Some people have come out of this cast in very deprecatory ways, few more than UFC light heavyweight champion, Jon Jones. In a recent article from The Wrestling Observer, there's yet another piece of information that will add fuel to the Jon Jones fire:

Jones was very upset after Chael began calling him out and mocking him on Twitter, going as far as to contact White and ask him to tell Chael to stop.

Even if you're an avid Jones supporter, it's hard to cast this in a positive light. Sure, it may not always be fun to be the butt of ten thousand Chael Sonnen jokes, but that's not something you can just ask Dana White to stop. It just seems childish for a professional athlete to respond so oddly to a little bit of heat from a possible competitor.

[josh07039]

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/9/7/...ior-dos-santos

I would love to see that fight. I don't particularly care about them doing TUF one way or the other, but Cormier at 205 sounds pretty awesome to me. The one thing I want to see is Cormier deep on a double leg on Jones' chicken legs.

I'm not one of those people who think Cormier=Olympics>JBJ=Junior College wrestling because of all the different variables in MMA, but I think based on Cormier's overall skill set, body type, and athleticism makes him a good stylistic matchup for Jones.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

Anderson is fighting Bonnar next month? WTF......

[fenikz]

ya, obviously just a pay day for both as they know the outcome, Dana just trying to salvage 153 in some way after cancelling 151, I pray that no one is dumb enough to buy it

[MetSox17]

People actually buy PPVs? I'd figure everyone streams it as well. Also, i hope Stephan got a nice payday for that ass beating he's being paid to take.

[nepg]

I'm pretty excited for tonight. 3 big fights that I give a **** about.

Vitor's always been one of my favorites (not sure exactly why), so I'm hoping he comes in to this fight prepared and at his best. I don't expect him to pull it off, though.

I don't care much for Stann or Bisping, but can't wait to see the fight. I think Bisping takes it, and I've kind of cooled on hating him so much.

Don't care who wins the flyweight fight (guessing Mighty Mouse takes it). Should be a great one.

Also - excited to see Vinny Maghaeles back in the UFC. The FX portion of the card is really good.

[Raiderz4Life]

I hope Vitor knocks the living daylights out of Jones. Probably won't happen but I can hope.

I hate Bisping and I hope Stann kicks his ass. AMERICUH!!!

[josh07039]

I wanna see hettes, vinny, and the flyweights most of all tonight. The main event is not all that interesting to me.

[nepg]

Originally Posted by raiderz4life

I hope Vitor knocks the living daylights out of Jones. Probably won't happen but I can hope.

I hate Bisping and I hope Stann kicks his ass. AMERICUH!!!

I think I hate the American Hero **** Stann gets even more than everything about Bisping, to be honest.

[Raiderz4Life]

Originally Posted by nepg

I think I hate the American Hero **** Stann gets even more than everything about Bisping, to be honest.

Yea it gets annoying. But I hate Bisping more than almost every other fighter.

[nepg]

That was dog ****, Hettes. Dog ****.

[josh07039]

Originally Posted by nepg

That was dog ****, Hettes. Dog ****.

I seriously dontget how that is the same guy as the last fight. He just walked forward and hoped to grab hold of brimage. He had zero standup and didnt trheaten with takedowns too much. Wtf with the nick diaz comp rogan?

[nepg]

He was acting like he was Diaz, but wasn't doing anything.

Did he just have a bad cut? That's what it looked like. He was slow.

[Rob S]

Great jitz on display right there by Vinny.

[Raiderz4Life]

Originally Posted by Rob S

Great jitz on display right there by Vinny.

Was gorgeous.

[nepg]

He's the best. **** Roger.

[Raiderz4Life]

Jones is such a ******* tool.

[josh07039]

So much of the media will call fans fickle or say we are haters, but reality is that he has gone from a humble, kinda weird dude to a cocky dick. He truly is a tool, it is such a shame that such an amazingly talented guy has to be such an asshole.

[Rob S]

Picks for the main card:

Jones
Benavidez
Bisping
Hamill
Swanson - all the bacon and eggs