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Old 10-16-2006, 04:22 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Shiver
No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.


going 15-1 as a rookie starter? Thats Common, no elite players haven't done this.

Winning your first ever rookie playoff game? Thats common, Every rookie does this.

Winning a ring? Every QB gets his chance to do this.

Being the youngest QB to ever win a superbowl? This is challenged yearly.

Leading a good team to 2 straight winning seasons, AFC Championships and a superbowl win? Eh, I'm tired of hearing this story, it's old, happens yearly.




What has Eli and Phillip done better than Ben so much that makes them elite?
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.
We would not be having this conversation if he had started the season strong. That's why this discussion is so bogus and biased. I will not put down a QB who LED his team to a Super Bowl for a couple of QBs from the same class who haven't done anything near to what he has. Each QB is drafted into a seperate role. It isn't any of their faults what that role is, and it certainly doesn't speak to their talent. It doesn't speak to Ben's talent that he dropped to 11 and a team like Pittsburgh happened to be sitting there and looking for a replacement for Tommy Maddox. Since we are dealing in hypotheticals here, where is the love for Matt Schaub? Why don't we springboard into a discussion about how Schaub could do everything Ben has if he wasn't a backup. And JP Losman has played better this year, why not him too? Hypotheticals are hypotheticals.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by Shiver
No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.


going 15-1 as a rookie starter? Thats Common, no elite players haven't done this.

Winning your first ever rookie playoff game? Thats common, Every rookie does this.

Winning a ring? Every QB gets his chance to do this.

Being the youngest QB to ever win a superbowl? This is challenged yearly.

Leading a good team to 2 straight winning seasons, AFC Championships and a superbowl win? Eh, I'm tired of hearing this story, it's old, happens yearly.




What has Eli and Phillip done better than Ben so much that makes them elite?
LOOK AT HIS SUPER BOWL GAME! DAMN! He did not "win" his team the superbowl.

All the achievements you list are TEAM achievements. Not QB achievements. My god.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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Ok, my head officially hurts just looking at this thread. I hurt my ankle this weekend playing football with my buddies, now I hurt my head reading this thread. I have 2 owies.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:33 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Wynel
I don't deal in hypotheticals. Ben did it and contrary to what some of you are saying, they did not do it in spite of him, not even close. Who tackled Nick Harper? Ben. Who threw touchdowns against Denver to send him to Detroit? Ben. Who scored on a scramble in the Super Bowl and set up another score with a deep pass to Hines Ward? Ben. He most certainly did his part and was not making mistake after mistake. There is a difference between mixing the run and the pass and being a "caretaker" QB.
Who completed less than 50% of passes in the superbowl? Ben. Who threw two interceptions and no touchdowns in the superbowl? Ben. Who had the lowest QB rating ever for a winning QB in the Superbowl? Ben.
Who won the superbowl? Steelers. Who was the QB? Ben.

Matt Hasselbeck. Ranked by this board to be anywhere 3-5 top QB overall:

had just a 53.1% completion rate, was sacked 3 times, had 1 touchdown and 1 interception. only a 67.8% QB rating

Not too "Elite" for an "Elite" Qb playing in the Superbowl... In a Pass to open the Run Philosophy.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver
No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.


going 15-1 as a rookie starter? Thats Common, no elite players haven't done this.

Winning your first ever rookie playoff game? Thats common, Every rookie does this.

Winning a ring? Every QB gets his chance to do this.

Being the youngest QB to ever win a superbowl? This is challenged yearly.

Leading a good team to 2 straight winning seasons, AFC Championships and a superbowl win? Eh, I'm tired of hearing this story, it's old, happens yearly.




What has Eli and Phillip done better than Ben so much that makes them elite?
LOOK AT HIS SUPER BOWL GAME! DAMN! He did not "win" his team the superbowl.

All the achievements you list are TEAM achievements. Not QB achievements. My god.
Ok, because if Pittsburgh had ANY OTHER QB, they would've done this.

Like Wynel said, Hypotheticals.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Who won the superbowl? Steelers. Who was the QB? Ben.

Matt Hasselbeck. Ranked by this board to be anywhere 3-5 top QB overall:

had just a 53.1% completion rate, was sacked 3 times, had 1 touchdown and 1 interception. only a 67.8% QB rating

Not too "Elite" for an "Elite" Qb playing in the Superbowl... In a Pass to open the Run Philosophy.
Wow. 2000 Ravens. Trent Dilfer won the super bowl. Big achievement. He played better than Ben played. Well, logically... Dilfer>Ben.

Matt Hasselbeck lead the BEST OFFENSE IN THE NFL last year. This year he is missing last years MVP, and is still playing very well. Hm...

Ignorant much. :roll:
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver
No one is saying he is a bad QB. He's just not on the elite level, a lot of people made him out to be. The only reason people say he is elite is "he has a ring," that just isn't good enough.


going 15-1 as a rookie starter? Thats Common, no elite players haven't done this.

Winning your first ever rookie playoff game? Thats common, Every rookie does this.

Winning a ring? Every QB gets his chance to do this.

Being the youngest QB to ever win a superbowl? This is challenged yearly.

Leading a good team to 2 straight winning seasons, AFC Championships and a superbowl win? Eh, I'm tired of hearing this story, it's old, happens yearly.




What has Eli and Phillip done better than Ben so much that makes them elite?
LOOK AT HIS SUPER BOWL GAME! DAMN! He did not "win" his team the superbowl.

All the achievements you list are TEAM achievements. Not QB achievements. My god.
You're talking about a 2nd year QB on the biggest stage of them all, against a very strong team. It's nice to expect someone to put up phenomenal stats in the Super Bowl but if you look at it another way, the Seahawks got to the SB in the first place because they were doing something right on defense. It doesn't make Ben any less of a QB that he didn't put on his best performance on a huge stage like against a top-tier team. As I said, you're setting the bar awfully high for a 2nd year QB, and in my opinion, just being blindly biased to begin with. Most 2nd year QBs won't even see a SB, let alone get there, start and win.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller

Ok, because if Pittsburgh had ANY OTHER QB, they would've done this.

Like Wynel said, Hypotheticals.
Stop attributing TEAM wins to one player. "Hypotheticals" isn't even a word. Ugh.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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Mr. Stiller-

Since you value the ring oh-so-much when evaluating a QB...can you give me a rundown on your opinion of Dan Marino?
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller

Ok, because if Pittsburgh had ANY OTHER QB, they would've done this.

Like Wynel said, Hypotheticals.
Stop attributing TEAM wins to one player. "Hypotheticals" isn't even a word. Ugh.
Who got them past Denver? This team couldn't get over the hump with guys like Neil O'Donnell, Kordell Stewart, or Tommy Maddox. The philosophies never changed, just the players. They pride themselves on strong defense and strong running. The different is that they finally got a QB who could lead the team. He took out Denver in the AFC Championship, though that apparently slips your mind and doesn't matter because it wasn't the actual SB game.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynel
You're talking about a 2nd year QB on the biggest stage of them all, against a very strong team. It's nice to expect someone to put up phenomenal stats in the Super Bowl but if you look at it another way, the Seahawks got to the SB in the first place because they were doing something right on defense. It doesn't make Ben any less of a QB that he didn't put on his best performance on a huge stage like against a top-tier team. As I said, you're setting the bar awfully high for a 2nd year QB, and in my opinion, just being blindly biased to begin with. Most 2nd year QBs won't even see a SB, let alone get there, start and win.
Oh my god. This is my last post to either of you, because you're completely idiotic.

NO. I was not expecting a career game from Ben. I was expecting a decent to mediocre game. Did he deliver? No. Was it the biggest stage of his career? Yes. To be an elite player, do you have to play well despite adversity? Yes.

Could it be that he is winning because he has a VERY good situation on offense? Perhaps because he isn't asked to throw the ball more than 20 times a game 75% of the time? Perhaps because their running game is very effective.

As for setting the bar, IM NOT. I was simply saying that I think Eli and Rivers are/will be better quarterbacks. I'm not saying Ben is bad, I'm saying that given the choice between the 3, I would take the other 2. Is it that goddamn hard to understand?
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:43 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Ok, my head officially hurts just looking at this thread. I hurt my ankle this weekend playing football with my buddies, now I hurt my head reading this thread. I have 2 owies.
QFT
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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actually "Hypotheticals" is the plural form of hypothetical. since there were multiple hypothetical situations bantered around, "hypotheticals" is a word.



kthnx.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Wynel
You're talking about a 2nd year QB on the biggest stage of them all, against a very strong team. It's nice to expect someone to put up phenomenal stats in the Super Bowl but if you look at it another way, the Seahawks got to the SB in the first place because they were doing something right on defense. It doesn't make Ben any less of a QB that he didn't put on his best performance on a huge stage like against a top-tier team. As I said, you're setting the bar awfully high for a 2nd year QB, and in my opinion, just being blindly biased to begin with. Most 2nd year QBs won't even see a SB, let alone get there, start and win.
Oh my god. This is my last post to either of you, because you're completely idiotic.

NO. I was not expecting a career game from Ben. I was expecting a decent to mediocre game. Did he deliver? No. Was it the biggest stage of his career? Yes. To be an elite player, do you have to play well despite adversity? Yes.

Could it be that he is winning because he has a VERY good situation on offense? Perhaps because he isn't asked to throw the ball more than 20 times a game 75% of the time? Perhaps because their running game is very effective.

As for setting the bar, IM NOT. I was simply saying that I think Eli and Rivers are/will be better quarterbacks. I'm not saying Ben is bad, I'm saying that given the choice between the 3, I would take the other 2. Is it that goddamn hard to understand?
Not everyone shares your opinion or has the same expectations for players as you do. Go cry in a corner.

The fact that he took his team to a SB but didn't play great in it, despite the fact he scored a rushing touchdown and they still won, does not make any of the other guys better than he is. Is that "goddamn hard to understand"?
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Concord83
actually "Hypotheticals" is the plural form of hypothetical. since there were multiple hypothetical situations bantered around, "hypotheticals" is a word.



kthnx.
There is no goddamn plural of hypothetical. Simply adding "s" doesn't make it plural, or a word.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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hypotheticals refers to multiple hypthetical situations, alice. go pick your ******* granny panties out of your ass and quit being such a goddamn queef.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concord83
actually "Hypotheticals" is the plural form of hypothetical. since there were multiple hypothetical situations bantered around, "hypotheticals" is a word.



kthnx.
There is no goddamn plural of hypothetical. Simply adding "s" doesn't make it plural, or a word.
You need to get off the forum and go have a cup of joe. You're a little too flustered over this argument. It's pointless for you to even continue with it since you're so pissed off.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Who won the superbowl? Steelers. Who was the QB? Ben.

Matt Hasselbeck. Ranked by this board to be anywhere 3-5 top QB overall:

had just a 53.1% completion rate, was sacked 3 times, had 1 touchdown and 1 interception. only a 67.8% QB rating

Not too "Elite" for an "Elite" Qb playing in the Superbowl... In a Pass to open the Run Philosophy.
Wow. 2000 Ravens. Trent Dilfer won the super bowl. Big achievement. He played better than Ben played. Well, logically... Dilfer>Ben.

Matt Hasselbeck lead the BEST OFFENSE IN THE NFL last year. This year he is missing last years MVP, and is still playing very well. Hm...

Ignorant much. :roll:
Your not tributing any of that to the fact that Hasselback also had quite possibly the best Oline in the league? I hope he would do well with all the time he'd get.

UH OH! SHOCKING UPDATE!:
This Season:

Grossman is only a game manager. He's throwing only 20-29 Passes a game.

Tom Brady only has 1 game over 29 passes, and it's a loss. He must be overrated.

Carson Palmer has thrown over 30 times in 2 games, ... 2 losses? See a Pattern?

It's rediculous, Most of the time Ben has to throw alot is because their behind in points... Usually alot of points. He doesn't have the WR's that Carson Palmer has? But he gets a free pass Right?

Brady has a superior oline and 2 pro-bowl RB's. But he's the top QB In the league.

Grossman Starts hot and everyone is on the bandwagon... alot of people that were calling for a QB to be drafted last year.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concord83
hypotheticals refers to multiple hypthetical situations, alice. go pick your *********** granny panties out of your ass and quit being such a goddamn queef.
Just because you may think it means something doesn't mean it does. Like when you call me a "queef" I am far from offended. Why? Because only someone with less than a third grade education and essentially no life ahead of them would call someone a "queef."

Anyways, as I said, don't you have a basic understanding of English?
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:52 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concord83
hypotheticals refers to multiple hypthetical situations, alice. go pick your *********** granny panties out of your ass and quit being such a goddamn queef.
Just because you may think it means something doesn't mean it does. Like when you call me a "queef" I am far from offended. Why? Because only someone with less than a third grade education and essentially no life ahead of them would call someone a "queef."

Anyways, as I said, don't you have a basic understanding of English?
People only refer to proper grammar when they have no more "Ammunition" left for the argument.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Your not tributing any of that to the fact that Hasselback also had quite possibly the best Oline in the league? I hope he would do well with all the time he'd get.

UH OH! SHOCKING UPDATE!:
This Season:

Grossman is only a game manager. He's throwing only 20-29 Passes a game.

Tom Brady only has 1 game over 29 passes, and it's a loss. He must be overrated.

Carson Palmer has thrown over 30 times in 2 games, ... 2 losses? See a Pattern?

It's rediculous, Most of the time Ben has to throw alot is because their behind in points... Usually alot of points. He doesn't have the WR's that Carson Palmer has? But he gets a free pass Right?

Brady has a superior oline and 2 pro-bowl RB's. But he's the top QB In the league.

Grossman Starts hot and everyone is on the bandwagon... alot of people that were calling for a QB to be drafted last year.
A) Hasselbeck's line has been bad this year.

B) I never said Grossman is better than Big Ben. I would say as of right now Ben is better than Grossman... simply throwing words in my mouth doesn't make you "right."

C) Brady did what Ben didn't: Played great when the pressure is on. He also Takes players that aren't that great and turns them into stars. Look at Givens. Look at his WR's this year. By the end of the year, at least 2 of them will be considered very good, when none of them are. Brady is also consistent, and proved last year he could carry his team without a running game.

D) Are you honestly trying to say that Ben is better than Palmer? I'd change your argument if you are.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstomp
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Originally Posted by Concord83
hypotheticals refers to multiple hypthetical situations, alice. go pick your *********** granny panties out of your ass and quit being such a goddamn queef.
Just because you may think it means something doesn't mean it does. Like when you call me a "queef" I am far from offended. Why? Because only someone with less than a third grade education and essentially no life ahead of them would call someone a "queef."

Anyways, as I said, don't you have a basic understanding of English?
People only refer to proper grammar when they have no more "Ammunition" left for the argument.
Yeah whether right or wrong, this is completely pointless if it's going to turn into a grammar argument. Grammar means nothing in a football discussion.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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Obviously someone has never written a term paper before. And yes, I have quite a bit to look forward to. And, amazingly enough, I do know how to construct a coherent sentence. But thanks for analyzing my life anonymously over a message board like you have any clue who I am. It's helped me so much!! Maybe we can start assuming the other has never been to college and is working at a local fast food establishment too? Now THAT would be fun!


Get a life, doucheguzzler.
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Old 10-16-2006, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by frogstomp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller
Your not tributing any of that to the fact that Hasselback also had quite possibly the best Oline in the league? I hope he would do well with all the time he'd get.

UH OH! SHOCKING UPDATE!:
This Season:

Grossman is only a game manager. He's throwing only 20-29 Passes a game.

Tom Brady only has 1 game over 29 passes, and it's a loss. He must be overrated.

Carson Palmer has thrown over 30 times in 2 games, ... 2 losses? See a Pattern?

It's rediculous, Most of the time Ben has to throw alot is because their behind in points... Usually alot of points. He doesn't have the WR's that Carson Palmer has? But he gets a free pass Right?

Brady has a superior oline and 2 pro-bowl RB's. But he's the top QB In the league.

Grossman Starts hot and everyone is on the bandwagon... alot of people that were calling for a QB to be drafted last year.
A) Hasselbeck's line has been bad this year.

B) I never said Grossman is better than Big Ben. I would say as of right now Ben is better than Grossman... simply throwing words in my mouth doesn't make you "right."

C) Brady did what Ben didn't: Played great when the pressure is on. He also Takes players that aren't that great and turns them into stars. Look at Givens. Look at his WR's this year. By the end of the year, at least 2 of them will be considered very good, when none of them are. Brady is also consistent, and proved last year he could carry his team without a running game.

D) Are you honestly trying to say that Ben is better than Palmer? I'd change your argument if you are.
Just simply stating the fact that if everyone thinks that ben is just a "Game Manager" and won't be elite, there's 3 QB's that are considered elite, winning games the same way ben does.

C) Givens > than Wilson/Washington. Reid Hasn't Played and Santonio is a Rookie. The Steelers WR's aren't exactly flattering.
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