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Old 11-17-2006, 05:06 PM    (permalink
Smooth Criminal
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The Giants gave up way to much to get Eli. Then again if he turns into the QB many thought he would be when he was drafted then it'll look like SD got screwed.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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San Diego won that deal, easily. Even if you don't think that Rivers is better than Manning, they also added Kaeding and Merriman from that deal.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
San Diego won that deal, easily. Even if you don't think that Rivers is better than Manning, they also added Kaeding and Merriman from that deal.
No doubt that we gave up too much for him. Ive always been against giving up a ton of picks for one player, it just doesn't make sense in a team sport to me. But, if we can win 2 SBs with him, I'll be satisfied with what transpired. 1 SB would be sweet, but 2 is what I want out of this transaction. At least now with him, we should be a contender for years to come. Thinking of the days of Dave Brown makes me cold and sweaty.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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San Diego won that deal, easily. Even if you don't think that Rivers is better than Manning, they also added Kaeding and Merriman from that deal.
I completely agree. But when you think of how Manning was hyped coming into the draft you can see why the Giants thought they had a good deal.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
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San Diego won that deal, easily. Even if you don't think that Rivers is better than Manning, they also added Kaeding and Merriman from that deal.
No doubt that we gave up too much for him. Ive always been against giving up a ton of picks for one player, it just doesn't make sense in a team sport to me. But, if we can win 2 SBs with him, I'll be satisfied with what transpired. 1 SB would be sweet, but 2 is what I want out of this transaction. At least now with him, we should be a contender for years to come. Thinking of the days of Dave Brown makes me cold and sweaty.
Just curious, you don't think you would have been just as well off if you took Rivers and had your first rounder in 2005?
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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San Diego won that deal, easily. Even if you don't think that Rivers is better than Manning, they also added Kaeding and Merriman from that deal.
No doubt that we gave up too much for him. Ive always been against giving up a ton of picks for one player, it just doesn't make sense in a team sport to me. But, if we can win 2 SBs with him, I'll be satisfied with what transpired. 1 SB would be sweet, but 2 is what I want out of this transaction. At least now with him, we should be a contender for years to come. Thinking of the days of Dave Brown makes me cold and sweaty.
Just curious, you don't think you would have been just as well off if you took Rivers and had your first rounder in 2005?
Ive asked myself that quesiton several times, and the honest answer is I don't know. I don't know if River's delivery would be successful in Jersey. He tends to float his balls a little, and in Giants stadium, that wouldn't bode well at all. And regardless of what all the bandwagoners will tell you, the book is still out on Rivers. So I honestly don't know. Couple that with the pressures of NY, and our poor philosophy, I really don't know if you can plug in Rivers and have more or equal success. Too many X factors.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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I wish Ben would be judged off of the first 9 games he played. 9-0 with back to back wins over undefeated teams that both made the superbowl.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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I wish Ben would be judged off of the first 9 games he played. 9-0 with back to back wins over undefeated teams that both made the superbowl.
Watch everyone fall off the bandwagon if for whatever reason Rivers has a poor sophomore year. I like Rivers and think he's a good player, but he's being way overrated by the board. Some people have him as a top 3 qb in the AFC.

Each team is different in their philosophies, its so hard to judge these guys. Ive said it before, and I'll say it again, if I was building a team from scratch, any one of them can be my qb. I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them. As a Giants fan, Im more critical of the coaching/playbook/playcalling than Eli. Obviously Eli needs to step it up too, but I don't put all his woes on his shoulders. Alot has to do with the coaching.
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Old 11-17-2006, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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If it were a draft now I'd love to have any of the 3 but at this point I wouldn't trade Ben for either of them straight up.
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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I wish Ben would be judged off of the first 9 games he played. 9-0 with back to back wins over undefeated teams that both made the superbowl.
Watch everyone fall off the bandwagon if for whatever reason Rivers has a poor sophomore year. I like Rivers and think he's a good player, but he's being way overrated by the board. Some people have him as a top 3 qb in the AFC.

Each team is different in their philosophies, its so hard to judge these guys. Ive said it before, and I'll say it again, if I was building a team from scratch, any one of them can be my qb. I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them. As a Giants fan, Im more critical of the coaching/playbook/playcalling than Eli. Obviously Eli needs to step it up too, but I don't put all his woes on his shoulders. Alot has to do with the coaching.
I've said right now he is playing like a top 3 AFC QB. I don't know that anybody has outright called him better than Palmer, Manning and Brady.

Heck, for some stretches Eli plays like the NFC's best QB too.

I'm with you that is impossible to say how the Gaints would have fared with Rivers. Then again, both teams should just be happy that they aren't stuck with Gallery.
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I wish Ben would be judged off of the first 9 games he played. 9-0 with back to back wins over undefeated teams that both made the superbowl.
Watch everyone fall off the bandwagon if for whatever reason Rivers has a poor sophomore year. I like Rivers and think he's a good player, but he's being way overrated by the board. Some people have him as a top 3 qb in the AFC.

Each team is different in their philosophies, its so hard to judge these guys. Ive said it before, and I'll say it again, if I was building a team from scratch, any one of them can be my qb. I wouldn't be unhappy with any of them. As a Giants fan, Im more critical of the coaching/playbook/playcalling than Eli. Obviously Eli needs to step it up too, but I don't put all his woes on his shoulders. Alot has to do with the coaching.
I've said right now he is playing like a top 3 AFC QB. I don't know that anybody has outright called him better than Palmer, Manning and Brady.

Heck, for some stretches Eli plays like the NFC's best QB too.

I'm with you that is impossible to say how the Gaints would have fared with Rivers. Then again, both teams should just be happy that they aren't stuck with Gallery.
You can say that again. The Giants FO and coaching staff loathed him.
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Old 11-17-2006, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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I've read that Cowher was pushing to trade up to get Dunta Robinson instead of staying at 11 where we got Ben.
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Rivers is a guy who, from what I've seen can really take over a game, get the ball to the right people, and make things happen. He reminds me (I know everyone's heard this all over the place) of Dan Marino in that sometimes, he just puts the ball in the absolute perfect spot. It's insane. I see a long and prosperous career ahead of him. What Ryan Leaf was supposed to be.

Manning has good tools to be a good QB, he's go the talent around him, but he is still developing. We'll see a better QB in a few years, though I don't think he'll every be the kind of QB that Rivers will become.

Mr. Burger was not my pot of coffee coming into the draft. I kind of had to eat crow after his rookie season. I now think that people are beginning to realize that right now, at least Big Ben is only a game manager. Yes, he did so well as a rookie and then won the SB last year, but when he did that, he had a great defense, and one of the best running games in the NFL. Now that they have lost Bettis, and the running game has suffered a bit as well as the defense kind of falling off, he's had to take the game on his shoulders. This has really exposed the real Ben. Let's face it, he's inconsistant. This will get better, but he'll never be more than average IMO.

Rivers
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Old 11-17-2006, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Funny you bring up Marino since he says Ben is the best out of the three.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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When did he say this? I'd bet that he said that before this year. Rivers has really emerged, Ben has come down from his high, and Manning is steadilly improving. This year has changed everyhting.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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Nope. He actually said it this week on inside the NFL. They asked 3 guys. Two said Ben one said Rivers.

And I wouldn't call Manning steadily improving. There hasn't been hardly anything steady about his performance.

I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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Manning isn't impoving? Is that a joke? 48.2% completion in the first year, then 52.8, now 59.4. His rating in year 1 was 55.4, then 75.9, and now 81.0. He's getting better whether you like it or not. Mark my words, put it in your sig if you want, but Rivers will always be a better QB than Ben based on the games I have seen them play. Manning right in the middle. Plus, about Marino liking Ben, he's drinking the potential kool-aid IMO. He thinks that Ben can be good. We'll all know in a few years, but for now it's all speculation, and I speculate based on breaking down their play that Rivers will be better than Ben with Manning between them.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
Ben was a game manager in his first years. Rivers was a game manager for a few weeks, and now he's starting to take over a game. I never saw Ben take over a game like Rivers has in the past few weeks. Rivers has proved more to me in the past few weeks than Ben has in the past two years.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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I didn't say Manning wasn't improving. I just said it wasn't very steadily. When you look at him game to game, there isn't anything steady about his play.

And I love how you have decided Rivers will always be a better QB than Ben based on the 9 games he has played. You were quick to mention how Ben has come down from his high level of play. Just interested in what makes you think Rivers won't do the same? In Ben's first 9 games he was 9-0 and beat two undefeated teams. In Rivers first 9 games he is 7-2 and has looked great doing it, but he has yet to beat a team above .500. Lets see what he does for the rest of the season before declaring him the best.

You say Ben was carried by a good defense and running game but SD has the best runningback in the game and a great defense and you failed to mention that.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
Ben was a game manager in his first years. Rivers was a game manager for a few weeks, and now he's starting to take over a game. I never saw Ben take over a game like Rivers has in the past few weeks. Rivers has proved more to me in the past few weeks than Ben has in the past two years.
Then you have missed alot of Steeler games. There have been many games where Ben has taken over and won us games. Go back and watch the playoffs. Ben carries this team through Cincinatti, Indianapolis and Denver. Even this year Ben carried them through Atlanta and NO. Plus he had a great game against Denver that was only lost because of 4 fumbles by recievers.

Ben has carried games you just refuse to look at them because you are on the Rivers bandwagon. I can't wait until he has a few bad games and people come jumping off of it.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:43 PM    (permalink
Staubach12
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In Ben's first 9 games, he had 192 pass attempts. Rivers has 274 in his first 9. Rivers has taken over the game. Ben never did have to carry a team. Until now. Yes, Tomlinson is great, and the defense is great, but Ben never had the responsiblity on the field that Rivers has right now until now, and Ben has done a crappy job. Rivers, on the other hand, has taken it very well, and won some games.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:47 PM    (permalink
Staubach12
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by Staubach12
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
Ben was a game manager in his first years. Rivers was a game manager for a few weeks, and now he's starting to take over a game. I never saw Ben take over a game like Rivers has in the past few weeks. Rivers has proved more to me in the past few weeks than Ben has in the past two years.
Then you have missed alot of Steeler games. There have been many games where Ben has taken over and won us games. Go back and watch the playoffs. Ben carries this team through Cincinatti, Indianapolis and Denver. Even this year Ben carried them through Atlanta and NO. Plus he had a great game against Denver that was only lost because of 4 fumbles by recievers.

Ben has carried games you just refuse to look at them because you are on the Rivers bandwagon. I can't wait until he has a few bad games and people come jumping off of it.
I've seen him play. Plenty of times, in fact. The thing is, he's played well, he's won games, but I haven't seen anything spectacular. I haven't seen him take over a game. I haven't seen something that wows me like that. He's won games, he's come back, but he's never really made me say, "Wow, he could be a top QB." Rivers has.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Ben was also a rookie in his first 9 games unlike Rivers who is a 3rd year pro.

And Ben hasn't done horrible. He has had several bad games but he has had some great games this year aswell. He set career highs in TDs and yards this year. He has had great games against KC, ATL, NO and Den which is half the games he played this year.

You call Ben a game manager yet he has more attempts/game than Rivers this year.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Smooth Criminal is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Staubach12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staubach12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
Ben was a game manager in his first years. Rivers was a game manager for a few weeks, and now he's starting to take over a game. I never saw Ben take over a game like Rivers has in the past few weeks. Rivers has proved more to me in the past few weeks than Ben has in the past two years.
Then you have missed alot of Steeler games. There have been many games where Ben has taken over and won us games. Go back and watch the playoffs. Ben carries this team through Cincinatti, Indianapolis and Denver. Even this year Ben carried them through Atlanta and NO. Plus he had a great game against Denver that was only lost because of 4 fumbles by recievers.

Ben has carried games you just refuse to look at them because you are on the Rivers bandwagon. I can't wait until he has a few bad games and people come jumping off of it.
I've seen him play. Plenty of times, in fact. The thing is, he's played well, he's won games, but I haven't seen anything spectacular. I haven't seen him take over a game. I haven't seen something that wows me like that. He's won games, he's come back, but he's never really made me say, "Wow, he could be a top QB." Rivers has.
You didn't see him torch Denver in the AFC Championship. How bout when he threw for 2 TDs in the 1st quarter of the Indy game. Or maybe when he threw 3 TDs in the Bengals game. How bout the pass he completed to Ward on 3rd and 23 in the superbowl that set up the play where the Steelers took the lead.

None of those made you think that he could be a top QB? And those are only the things he did in the post season last year.
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Old 11-17-2006, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staubach12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Staubach12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
I hate how people look at the first 9 games of this year and say they change everything. You mention how Ben has come down from his high. Its only a matter of time before Rivers does the same and people will be jumping off his bangwagon.
Ben was a game manager in his first years. Rivers was a game manager for a few weeks, and now he's starting to take over a game. I never saw Ben take over a game like Rivers has in the past few weeks. Rivers has proved more to me in the past few weeks than Ben has in the past two years.
Then you have missed alot of Steeler games. There have been many games where Ben has taken over and won us games. Go back and watch the playoffs. Ben carries this team through Cincinatti, Indianapolis and Denver. Even this year Ben carried them through Atlanta and NO. Plus he had a great game against Denver that was only lost because of 4 fumbles by recievers.

Ben has carried games you just refuse to look at them because you are on the Rivers bandwagon. I can't wait until he has a few bad games and people come jumping off of it.
I've seen him play. Plenty of times, in fact. The thing is, he's played well, he's won games, but I haven't seen anything spectacular. I haven't seen him take over a game. I haven't seen something that wows me like that. He's won games, he's come back, but he's never really made me say, "Wow, he could be a top QB." Rivers has.
You didn't see him torch Denver in the AFC Championship. How bout when he threw for 2 TDs in the 1st quarter of the Indy game. Or maybe when he threw 3 TDs in the Bengals game. How bout the pass he completed to Ward on 3rd and 23 in the superbowl that set up the play where the Steelers took the lead.

None of those made you think that he could be a top QB? And those are only the things he did in the post season last year.
He didn't exactly torch denver. He made some good throws, yeah. The Indy game wasn't anything special 2 TDs 1 INT, and 197 yds. Woohoo! Against the Bengals, yes he threw for 3 TDs, but only 200 yds. That's an alright game but nothing to flip over. The fact that you even brought up the SB makes me laugh. Do you realize that his QB rating in the SB was the lowest ever for a winning team? Because it was. He was 9 for 21! Let me say that again in a different way. He completed 9 passes in the biggest game of his life. That's not great. 2 of those 21 attempts were picked off! He passed for 123 yards. That's a funny number. You know, 1-2-3, but it's terrible when your talking QBs. So, don't even get me started about the Super Bowl.
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