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Old 11-19-2006, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Chalk up 2 more INTs on Rivers if you are watching SNF.

I don't like that going back and getting rid of stats crap either. What happens happens. Even though all 3 of the INTs were catchable balls today they were still INTs and still count.

But if you guys are going to take a TD away from him atleast take one away that he actually threw.
crap, someone caught it before I did
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RCAChainGang
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Chalk up 2 more INTs on Rivers if you are watching SNF.

I don't like that going back and getting rid of stats crap either. What happens happens. Even though all 3 of the INTs were catchable balls today they were still INTs and still count.

But if you guys are going to take a TD away from him atleast take one away that he actually threw.
I didnt take the TD away
I know I was more refering to the fact that you agreed with what he said.

Plus no one responded to me saying it the first time so I wanted to make sure it got noticed.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Well all three QBs are good QBs.

I personal beleive its Eli, Philip, Ben.

I see where your coming from and by no means do i disagree that Big Ben is a good QB. We are repeating ourselves so m going to move on. Good debating
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
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Originally Posted by RCAChainGang
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Originally Posted by Smooth Criminal
Chalk up 2 more INTs on Rivers if you are watching SNF.

I don't like that going back and getting rid of stats crap either. What happens happens. Even though all 3 of the INTs were catchable balls today they were still INTs and still count.

But if you guys are going to take a TD away from him atleast take one away that he actually threw.
I didnt take the TD away
I know I was more refering to the fact that you agreed with what he said.

Plus no one responded to me saying it the first time so I wanted to make sure it got noticed.
I just realized from ur post that batch threw that...
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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those damn emergency appendectomies, making me look stupid
I stand by the general idea of the post though
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm expecting some of the Rivers hype to go away. Sure its just one bad game tonight that really isn't even that horrible but that seems to be all it tkaes for people to get off of your bandwagon on here.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperMcgee
those damn emergency appendectomies, making me look stupid
I stand by the general idea of the post though
As do I. Sucks you came up with a bad example.

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Old 11-19-2006, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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Is that your answer to Ben not being carried by our defense in the playoffs? Just say we're repating ourselves and quit?

Just because Ben isn't playing the best right now doesn't mean he isn't as good if not better than the other two. I think people are basing to much of this off of this year. But thats how it usually goes on message boards. It only matters how a player is playing right now.
exactly, which is why JP Losman is a top 3 QB right now
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Rivers started out bad but turned it around. 2 TDs nad he has really put his team in position to win this game.

Having LT to handoff and throw to is always good though.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:15 PM    (permalink
 
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After this week:

1. Big Ben
2. Rivers



















3. Manning.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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Just curious but how did you have them ranked last week.

Personally, I think if you change how you rank them on a week to week basis you are an idiot.
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:18 PM    (permalink
 
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Just curious but how did you have them ranked last week.

Personally, I think if you change how you rank them on a week to week basis you are an idiot.
1a. Rivers
1b. Big Ben
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Old 11-19-2006, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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I think Ben is the best and I don't think you saw enough this week to flip them.

This is exactly what I was talking about. First sign of Rivers having a bad game and people are starting to jump off of his bandwagon.

Am I the only one who noticed that Rivers had a better game than Ben this week? Even with Rivers two INTs he has looked very good going 19-26 last time I saw. Plus he had 2 TDs and they were in position to score again.
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Old 11-20-2006, 04:00 AM    (permalink
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Rivers was fine tonight, seriously, he threw one bad pass and everyone panics. :roll: Al Wilson said that he is already on the same plateau of elite NFL quarterbacks. He has the most poise, quickest release and by far the most accurate of the bunch.

Ben Roethlisberger has ways to go, before he becomes a legitimate passer, not just a game manager like his first two seasons. At times he flashes his potential, like the Denver AFCCG, and a couple of the games this year.

As for Eli Manning, he still struggles with overthrows, which lead to interceptions. He is still inconsistent. He will get better, but not at a Peyton-like echelon.

JMO
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Old 11-20-2006, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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Great finish by Big Ben and he is showing he can be clutch in big spots. He is starting to earn more of my respect, just has to take care of the ball more.
He really can't make up for the fact that ced and hines got perfect passes and they tipped it to the defense, the pick six was too high for holmes but he could have made the play.
Wasn't just the INTs that made him look bad. And EVERY QB is the victim of catchable balls being intercepted by the defense.
did you watch the game, Ben was a tank, mobile, untacklable and avoided 3 sacks after getting grabbed.
Yes I watched the game. Ben was bad in the 1st half.
Yea I can't argue that.. I just have a feeling Ben will be back next year and be probowlish.
So you have given up on your boy with 6 games to go? Doesn't seem to me that you can even convince yourself that you should have confidence in him.
Where did I say give up? I simply stated, yea he played a bad first half. and He's no way going to the pro-bowl this season. Next year is going to be his chance to put his name on the map, especially with the naysayers all over Rivers Jock. Rivers had half the adversity of Ben and Eli.

I'm not saying that Rivers won't be the best. but 10 games doesn't prove who's better than who. But if we are comparing the first 10 games. Ben > phillip > Eli.

I wonder what Bens Statline would look like if he had Gates and LT...
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Old 11-20-2006, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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Rivers was fine tonight, seriously, he threw one bad pass and everyone panics. :roll: Al Wilson said that he is already on the same plateau of elite NFL quarterbacks. He has the most poise, quickest release and by far the most accurate of the bunch.

Ben Roethlisberger has ways to go, before he becomes a legitimate passer, not just a game manager like his first two seasons. At times he flashes his potential, like the Denver AFCCG, and a couple of the games this year.

As for Eli Manning, he still struggles with overthrows, which lead to interceptions. He is still inconsistent. He will get better, but not at a Peyton-like echelon.

JMO

Rivers also has LT, and Gates. I'll give Rivers taht he's had a strong season.

My issue comes with the "Rivers is better than Eli/Ben because he had a great 10 game start".

we haven't seen enough of Phillip to make that kind of statement. Kind of like Gallery and the bust statement, isn't it a bit early to crown someone.

Ben Was quite possibly the most consistant QB in the past 2 seasons, Rookie season led the Steelers to the Playoffs with the #5 overall QB Rating. Then the season after led them to the superbowl with the #3 overall. You also have to look. Randel El hasn't even beat out Lloyd for the #2 spot, so it wasn't exactly like he was leagues elite, and Outside of Ward, Bens been throwing to a bunch of UDFA's. Holmes is starting to show flashes but he doesn't have a #1 guy to always be there.

My reason for thinking Ben is better, is because he's done more with less.

Coming into the league with a far worse Oline, a rather unimpressive RB and A TE not many people outside steelers know.

Eli had Tiki, Phil had LT. Eli had Shockey, Phil has Gates. Ben had Staley and Tuman.
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Old 11-20-2006, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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Rivers had a decent game. Im not going to say it was great by any means. It was good. Its real sweet when you have LT scoring 4 TDs AGAIN for you. And I love how Eli gets knocked on for "lobbing it up" to Plax, but Rivers gets a pass for doing the same with Gates. Rivers did a good job taking what the defense gave him in the 2nd half and letting the run game and LT dictate where the ball should go. There are some things I noticed though.

1. Rivers clearly has the best oline of the bunch. He barely had anyone on him the entire game. The few times he got pressure on him, you saw what happened. He's yet to show how he can manage evading pressure. So far, the limited time he had pressure on him, he hasn't handled it well, but we don't notice it as a whole because his line is so good.

2. Rivers tends to float his balls on passes beyond 25 yards. He does it with deadly accuracy, but remember at the same time, that floating style wouldn't work in a Pittsburgh or Giants stadium. Knowing what I know about my team, how all our routes are like 25 yards plus, coupled with Giants stadium which is arguably the hardest stadium to throw in, Rivers's delivery would not work in NY. Not with our stadium and playbook.

3. Yes Ben has a run heavy system, yes Eli has Tiki, but Rivers clearly has the advantage with LT in the backfield. LT can take over games. He's the league MVP right now. You saw that seem pass TD to LT? It was like shooting fish in a bucket. When in doubt, dump it to LT and let him take care of the rest.

4. This is no knock on Rivers, but I just love the offensive gameplan that SD puts together. Its a perfect playbook in utilizing its pieces. The same can't be said with my Giants (unfortunately bc TC/Huffnagel are so stubborn), but you gotta love how SD uses its pieces

5. Another overlooked fact. SD simplifies the pass plays for Rivers. He has 2 hot reads on every play. Pay attention to Rivers on pass plays, you'll see that he has a hot read and a dump off checkdown. Thats his playbook. He runs the system well, and its good that theyre not putting too much on his plate, but at the same time, if we're gonna knock Ben for the same thing, why not Rivers?

Honestly, Rivers is a good qb, but he hasn't shown me anything more than Ben did his first 2 years, maybe a little more. He's not asked to go out there and win the game, just let things come to you. Thats not any different from what Ben had to do. He does throw more than Ben, but look at the styles. Its the same. Hot read, check down. Rivers just happens to do it more, but its still the same philosophy.
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Old 11-20-2006, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Rivers had a decent game. Im not going to say it was great by any means. It was good. Its real sweet when you have LT scoring 4 TDs AGAIN for you. And I love how Eli gets knocked on for "lobbing it up" to Plax, but Rivers gets a pass for doing the same with Gates. Rivers did a good job taking what the defense gave him in the 2nd half and letting the run game and LT dictate where the ball should go. There are some things I noticed though.

1. Rivers clearly has the best oline of the bunch. He barely had anyone on him the entire game. The few times he got pressure on him, you saw what happened. He's yet to show how he can manage evading pressure. So far, the limited time he had pressure on him, he hasn't handled it well, but we don't notice it as a whole because his line is so good.

2. Rivers tends to float his balls on passes beyond 25 yards. He does it with deadly accuracy, but remember at the same time, that floating style wouldn't work in a Pittsburgh or Giants stadium. Knowing what I know about my team, how all our routes are like 25 yards plus, coupled with Giants stadium which is arguably the hardest stadium to throw in, Rivers's delivery would not work in NY. Not with our stadium and playbook.

3. Yes Ben has a run heavy system, yes Eli has Tiki, but Rivers clearly has the advantage with LT in the backfield. LT can take over games. He's the league MVP right now. You saw that seem pass TD to LT? It was like shooting fish in a bucket. When in doubt, dump it to LT and let him take care of the rest.

4. This is no knock on Rivers, but I just love the offensive gameplan that SD puts together. Its a perfect playbook in utilizing its pieces. The same can't be said with my Giants (unfortunately bc TC/Huffnagel are so stubborn), but you gotta love how SD uses its pieces

5. Another overlooked fact. SD simplifies the pass plays for Rivers. He has 2 hot reads on every play. Pay attention to Rivers on pass plays, you'll see that he has a hot read and a dump off checkdown. Thats his playbook. He runs the system well, and its good that theyre not putting too much on his plate, but at the same time, if we're gonna knock Ben for the same thing, why not Rivers?

Honestly, Rivers is a good qb, but he hasn't shown me anything more than Ben did his first 2 years, maybe a little more. He's not asked to go out there and win the game, just let things come to you. Thats not any different from what Ben had to do. He does throw more than Ben, but look at the styles. Its the same. Hot read, check down. Rivers just happens to do it more, but its still the same philosophy.

Finally..
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Old 11-20-2006, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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You guys can say whatever homer comments you want about how Rivers throws' wouldn't work in New York (lol) or whatever, but Rivers just led his team back from deficits of 21 and 17 in the second half of games against two division champions. Just because LT struck the killing blows with his 3 yard TD runs doesn't mean Rivers didn't move the team down the field and score touchdowns on THE FINAL 4 DRIVES FOR THE WIN last night, against the league's stingiest defense.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, especially about the long term projections of all 3 quarterbacks, but there's no one I'd rather have QBing the Chargers right now than Rivers.
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Old 11-20-2006, 02:01 PM    (permalink
defensiveback23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Rivers had a decent game. Im not going to say it was great by any means. It was good. Its real sweet when you have LT scoring 4 TDs AGAIN for you. And I love how Eli gets knocked on for "lobbing it up" to Plax, but Rivers gets a pass for doing the same with Gates. Rivers did a good job taking what the defense gave him in the 2nd half and letting the run game and LT dictate where the ball should go. There are some things I noticed though.

1. Rivers clearly has the best oline of the bunch. He barely had anyone on him the entire game. The few times he got pressure on him, you saw what happened. He's yet to show how he can manage evading pressure. So far, the limited time he had pressure on him, he hasn't handled it well, but we don't notice it as a whole because his line is so good.

2. Rivers tends to float his balls on passes beyond 25 yards. He does it with deadly accuracy, but remember at the same time, that floating style wouldn't work in a Pittsburgh or Giants stadium. Knowing what I know about my team, how all our routes are like 25 yards plus, coupled with Giants stadium which is arguably the hardest stadium to throw in, Rivers's delivery would not work in NY. Not with our stadium and playbook.

3. Yes Ben has a run heavy system, yes Eli has Tiki, but Rivers clearly has the advantage with LT in the backfield. LT can take over games. He's the league MVP right now. You saw that seem pass TD to LT? It was like shooting fish in a bucket. When in doubt, dump it to LT and let him take care of the rest.

4. This is no knock on Rivers, but I just love the offensive gameplan that SD puts together. Its a perfect playbook in utilizing its pieces. The same can't be said with my Giants (unfortunately bc TC/Huffnagel are so stubborn), but you gotta love how SD uses its pieces

5. Another overlooked fact. SD simplifies the pass plays for Rivers. He has 2 hot reads on every play. Pay attention to Rivers on pass plays, you'll see that he has a hot read and a dump off checkdown. Thats his playbook. He runs the system well, and its good that theyre not putting too much on his plate, but at the same time, if we're gonna knock Ben for the same thing, why not Rivers?

Honestly, Rivers is a good qb, but he hasn't shown me anything more than Ben did his first 2 years, maybe a little more. He's not asked to go out there and win the game, just let things come to you. Thats not any different from what Ben had to do. He does throw more than Ben, but look at the styles. Its the same. Hot read, check down. Rivers just happens to do it more, but its still the same philosophy.
Watch the Bengals game where Rivers was consistently under pressure and still took over and tell me if you still agree with everything you wrote.
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Old 11-20-2006, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by defensiveback23
Watch the Bengals game where Rivers was consistently under pressure and still took over and tell me if you still agree with everything you wrote.
Ok, I made more than one point, so...how does this negate everything I said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
You guys can say whatever homer comments you want about how Rivers throws' wouldn't work in New York (lol) or whatever, but Rivers just led his team back from deficits of 21 and 17 in the second half of games against two division champions. Just because LT struck the killing blows with his 3 yard TD runs doesn't mean Rivers didn't move the team down the field and score touchdowns on THE FINAL 4 DRIVES FOR THE WIN last night, against the league's stingiest defense.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, especially about the long term projections of all 3 quarterbacks, but there's no one I'd rather have QBing the Chargers right now than Rivers.
And how was the throws comment not a credible one? Im sure youve never been to Giants stadium, so you wouldn't know how it effects a qb. Theres a reason why theres not many successful qbs at Giants stadium, the swirling winds and cold novembers/decembers make it very difficult to throw the ball deep with accuracy. Couple that with our verticle playbook, and Rivers's tendency to float deepballs, how is this unwarranted? He can gun his 15 yard throws, but pay attention to his 25+ throws. Theyre all based on timing and are floated. That floating style would not work in Giants stadium. The winds would blow that ball off target, and disrupt the timing that he relies on with those throws.

And yeah...you do realize that LT had 74 yards receiving out of River's 222 yards, and one of his TDs? Thats 1/3rd of his passing production...coming from out of the backfield aka checking down to LT and letting him take care of the rest. The other 2 qbs in this debate don't have that benefit.

Using last night's game as a reason of why he's better only weakens your argument. Sorry, but that was the LT show last night. When the running back is unconscious, its hard to tell me that Rivers was the catalyst.

And if you look at the numbers, it only further validates my declarations that he is in a simplified offense with 2 hot reads. I just don't get the hypocrisy. We want to knock Ben for this yet give Rivers a pass? When you run into a wall, don't you learn not to make the same mistake again? Its amazing how the bandwagon just switched from Ben to Rivers so quickly.

And I love how everyone undermines his WRs. Like theyre non existant out there. McCardell is no worse than Toomer, in fact theyre mirror images. Yes, Burress is better than Parker, but if you take skill positions into account.

Burress>>Parker
Toomer=McCardell
Gates>>Shockey
LT>Tiki
Neal>>>Finn

Look at that, its pretty darned close. Couple that with a much better OC, and oline, and playing 8 games in fair weather, you have an unfair comparison.

Im not saying he's not good, Im just saying that the mancrushes on him are unwarranted. You can't take away from Ben but give Rivers love for the same circumstances. It doesn't make any sense.
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Old 11-20-2006, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
You guys can say whatever homer comments you want about how Rivers throws' wouldn't work in New York (lol) or whatever, but Rivers just led his team back from deficits of 21 and 17 in the second half of games against two division champions. Just because LT struck the killing blows with his 3 yard TD runs doesn't mean Rivers didn't move the team down the field and score touchdowns on THE FINAL 4 DRIVES FOR THE WIN last night, against the league's stingiest defense.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, especially about the long term projections of all 3 quarterbacks, but there's no one I'd rather have QBing the Chargers right now than Rivers.
BINGO

Rivers OL is far from amazing either. It might be a bit better than the Giants but it's not better than the Steelers.

Burress>>>>Parker
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Old 11-20-2006, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marks01234
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
You guys can say whatever homer comments you want about how Rivers throws' wouldn't work in New York (lol) or whatever, but Rivers just led his team back from deficits of 21 and 17 in the second half of games against two division champions. Just because LT struck the killing blows with his 3 yard TD runs doesn't mean Rivers didn't move the team down the field and score touchdowns on THE FINAL 4 DRIVES FOR THE WIN last night, against the league's stingiest defense.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions, especially about the long term projections of all 3 quarterbacks, but there's no one I'd rather have QBing the Chargers right now than Rivers.
BINGO

Rivers OL is far from amazing either. It might be a bit better than the Giants but it's not better than the Steelers.

Burress>>>>Parker
17 sacks on Rivers ... 27 on Ben.. the sad part is, Ben's a better scrambler....
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Old 11-20-2006, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Losman... :twisted:

But Rivers is the best of the group.
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Old 11-20-2006, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Wow i started a pretty nice thread. And it doesn't seem to be going away any time soon. But, if Eli Manning puts up 4 TDs and 350 yard tonight (i'm not saying... i'm just saying) i'm going to lobby to have this thread closed.
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