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Old 11-21-2006, 01:24 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Concord83
in eli's defense, plaxico burress is probably the laziest receiver i've ever seen in my entire life. he easily challenges randy moss in the ***********-factor of wr's who give up if it's not an easy catch. in fact, i think an argument could be made that burress is the biggest waste of talent in the nfl. if he ran routes with the same passion and desire as torry holt or marvin harrison, he'd be top 5 wr with no questions asked.
By no means did we deserve to win that game, but he made 2 huge drops. The bomb pass that was right on, and before half time we were driving, and on 3rd down he half assed his route on a quick slant and Eli threw it too ahead of him. It wouldve been dead on had Plax actually gave a damn and ran his route properly.

He's such an enigma. Some plays he's amazing, then other times in the game he just doesn't give a damn and disappears. He has made some nice catches though, but I just want some damn consistency.

Everyone loves to knock Eli with the whole Burress thing, I tell you what, I'll trade Burress for Holt, Chad Johnson, etc anyday of the week.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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I think a major flaw with our offense is, the pass game is built around Burress, who is ultimately nothing more than a deep threat. He's not a number 1, he's a solid 2 who can go deep. But if you base your whole offensive playbook around that, it doesn't make for consistant play.

We need a possession receiver who can move the chains. We should use Shockey in that regards, but Air Coughlin streaks him every play. Having Sinorice warm the bench isn't helping much either. Carter has the droppsies, and fumbilitis, and he's also nothing more than a streaker. Heck, Sinorice is a streaker.

Outside of Shockey, we have no possession receivers. And we streak Shockey. Toomer filled the need, and the results were clear. He was Eli's number 1 target, but now that he's out, we have 3 WRs who streak, and a TE who is sent deep all the time.

Signing Keyshawn in the offseason wouldve been so sweet right now, he wouldve been exacty what this offense needs.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
I think a major flaw with our offense is, the pass game is built around Burress, who is ultimately nothing more than a deep threat. He's not a number 1, he's a solid 2 who can go deep. But if you base your whole offensive playbook around that, it doesn't make for consistant play.

We need a possession receiver who can move the chains. We should use Shockey in that regards, but Air Coughlin streaks him every play. Having Sinorice warm the bench isn't helping much either. Carter has the droppsies, and fumbilitis, and he's also nothing more than a streaker. Heck, Sinorice is a streaker.

Outside of Shockey, we have no possession receivers. And we streak Shockey. Toomer filled the need, and the results were clear. He was Eli's number 1 target, but now that he's out, we have 3 WRs who streak, and a TE who is sent deep all the time.

Signing Keyshawn in the offseason wouldve been so sweet right now, he wouldve been exacty what this offense needs.
Plax is more than a deep threat, he showed what he can do with the ball in his hands on his TD last night and he is solid in the intermediate game. He is inconsistent, but he is still a #1 option.

Shockey is a do-it-all target that needs to be involved the way he was last night. I labeled him the 2nd best TE in the league this past offseason because if he is used like he was last night in the second half, nobody can stop him. He brings so much to the table, it's a shame that he hasn't gotten involved early in games.

Carter is someone who simply can stetch the field, nothing else. Why we signed him to a 2 year deal is beyond me, but he is garbage.

I like Tyree a lot, he is a Proehl type WR in the sense that he knows how to get open. I'd like to see him in the slot more often.

Moss is the wildcard here. In Miami, he was a do it all kid who could beat everyone deep and also ran the short routes very well. Manning's lack of accuracy will either improve or be exploited even more with the addition of Moss, which I think will happen this week. Moss can do so much for Eli, or he can make Eli take a few steps backward because the margin for error is less with such a small target.
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Old 11-21-2006, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Well no kidding, you would trade Plax for Holt and Chad Johnson. Those two guys along with Steve Smith are the best in the game.

Hines Ward=Plaxico Burress>McCardell ; Plax should be an NFL top 5 WR and your right on that he lacks consistencty. However, I think some of that should ride on Eli's shoulders as well. Eli has missed him numerous times this season.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Up to the minute career passer rating -

Philip - 96.7
Ben - 90.4
Eli - 72.7
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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The thing about the passer rating, it elevates the game managers over playmakers. Philip Rivers is both, he's efficient, and his offense is explosive. Ben Roethlisberger, when finally asked to do what Eli Manning does, and throw the ball to win, has been worse. His first two years stats shouldn't be taken out of the context of what he had to do.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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The thing about the passer rating, it elevates the game managers over playmakers. Philip Rivers is both, he's efficient, and his offense is explosive. Ben Roethlisberger, when finally asked to do what Eli Manning does, and throw the ball to win, has been worse. His first two years stats shouldn't be taken out of the context of what he had to do.
You mean playmakers like Steve Young, the career all-time passer rating leader?

Passer rating punishes QB's that make bad decisions.
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Old 11-21-2006, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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No, that's not like it at all. The Passer Rating does judge the great Quarterbacks, fairly. But, once you get to the mid-level passers, a QB like Roethlisberger that has 12:17 TD/INT ratio, has a higher passer rating than Eli Manning does, who has 16:13 TD/INT ratio, not great, but better than Ben's is. Let me ask you, do you think Ben Roethlisberger was an elite quarterback last year? Do you think David Carr is having a better season than Tom Brady is? Last time I checked, 17 interceptions could be qualified as bad decisions, yet his 62% completion percentage, propels him over several Quarterbacks who have more touchdowns than interceptions. That shouldn't happen.

The fact is, some take the QB Passer Rating as the holy grail, and ignore Ben's awful "stats" when he is asked to throw the ball on a consistent basis. When you only read 1/3 of the field, throw on first down play action, and are asked to manage the game, your passer rating is going to be fantastic. That is what happened to Big Ben. In nine games, he has more attempts than ever in his career, despite playing fewer games. He has been dreadful this year except for three games.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
No, that's not like it at all. The Passer Rating does judge the great Quarterbacks, fairly. But, a QB like Roethlisberger that has 12:17 TD/INT ratio, has a higher passer rating than Eli Manning does, who has 16:13 TD/INT ratio, not great, but better than Ben's is. Let me ask you, do you think Ben Roethlisberger was an elite quarterback last year? Do you think David Carr is having a better season than Tom Brady is? Last time I checked, 17 interceptions could be qualified as bad decisions, yet his 62% completion percentage, propels him over several Quarterbacks who have more touchdowns than interceptions. That shouldn't happen.

The fact is, some take the QB Passer Rating as the holy grail, and ignore Ben's awful "stats" when he is asked to throw the ball on a consistent basis. When you only read 1/3 of the field, throw on first down play action, and are asked to manage the game, your passer rating is going to be fantastic. That is what happened to Big Ben, and even Damon Huard this year.

I still think completion % matters. TD passes are the overrated aspect of passer rating to me. A QB with a high completion percentage indicates to me, that quarterback gets the chains moving. YPA is also a good measure of efficiency. Ben leads Eli this year 7.57 to 6.59 (Philip is at 7.69).

Ben has also had to deal with injuries, motorcycle accidents, surgeries, etc. What is Eli's excuse?
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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Actually passer rating tells the story of Ben's season this year versus the first two seasons when he wasn't asked to do much. His passer rating this year is lousy.
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Old 11-21-2006, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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Actually passer rating tells the story of Ben's season this year versus the first two seasons when he wasn't asked to do much. His passer rating this year is lousy.
I still think Ben is a better QB. Ben is as good of a deep ball thrower as there is. Ben wasn't asked to throw the ball alot last year, or in 2004, but when he did, he threw the ball downfield as well as anyone in the league, much much better than Manning ever has. Eli also has fumbled 8 times this season.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:14 PM    (permalink
 
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It doesn't matter what anyone says about Ben being good. If your not an Eli fan or Vick lover on this site your opinion is nothing. It's gone on and on. Only Ben is a product of a system the other guys are these incredible qb's that everyone else is the problem. Fact of the matter is, Ben led his team to the superbowl and the others haven't. It's really funny to read about how great Eli is, yet he hasn't produced. Say what you will about Ben, but if you actually watched him you would see that he doesn't tghrow much because of getting a lead early. This year has been bad and I don't think there is a Steelers fan who doesn't think so. Lately he has been coming out of his funk and starting to play much better. What is eli's excuse? How about Vick? These guys are playing poorly but get a pass. Go figure. That's alright though. Ben has a ring and these guys don't. Besides most people who actually know a thing or two about the game realize that Ben will probably get another ring before Eli will and Vick will never get one unless he is a backup on a team who wins one. I think thier is a bright future for Rivers, Ben and Eli. They have only been in the league for 3 years and will most likely be the big studs for the next decade or so.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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It doesn't matter what anyone says about Ben being good. If your not an Eli fan or Vick lover on this site your opinion is nothing. It's gone on and on.
There are plenty of posters who are negative towards Vick and Manning, but aren't criticized, because they articulate their opinions well.
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Old 11-21-2006, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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in eli's defense, plaxico burress is probably the laziest receiver i've ever seen in my entire life. he easily challenges randy moss in the ***********-factor of wr's who give up if it's not an easy catch. in fact, i think an argument could be made that burress is the biggest waste of talent in the nfl. if he ran routes with the same passion and desire as torry holt or marvin harrison, he'd be top 5 wr with no questions asked.
By no means did we deserve to win that game, but he made 2 huge drops. The bomb pass that was right on, and before half time we were driving, and on 3rd down he half assed his route on a quick slant and Eli threw it too ahead of him. It wouldve been dead on had Plax actually gave a damn and ran his route properly.

He's such an enigma. Some plays he's amazing, then other times in the game he just doesn't give a damn and disappears. He has made some nice catches though, but I just want some damn consistency.

Everyone loves to knock Eli with the whole Burress thing, I tell you what, I'll trade Burress for Holt, Chad Johnson, etc anyday of the week.
Everyone made it seem like it was a plus when Ben had him...........
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Old 11-21-2006, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver
No, that's not like it at all. The Passer Rating does judge the great Quarterbacks, fairly. But, a QB like Roethlisberger that has 12:17 TD/INT ratio, has a higher passer rating than Eli Manning does, who has 16:13 TD/INT ratio, not great, but better than Ben's is. Let me ask you, do you think Ben Roethlisberger was an elite quarterback last year? Do you think David Carr is having a better season than Tom Brady is? Last time I checked, 17 interceptions could be qualified as bad decisions, yet his 62% completion percentage, propels him over several Quarterbacks who have more touchdowns than interceptions. That shouldn't happen.

The fact is, some take the QB Passer Rating as the holy grail, and ignore Ben's awful "stats" when he is asked to throw the ball on a consistent basis. When you only read 1/3 of the field, throw on first down play action, and are asked to manage the game, your passer rating is going to be fantastic. That is what happened to Big Ben, and even Damon Huard this year.

I still think completion % matters. TD passes are the overrated aspect of passer rating to me. A QB with a high completion percentage indicates to me, that quarterback gets the chains moving. YPA is also a good measure of efficiency. Ben leads Eli this year 7.57 to 6.59 (Philip is at 7.69).

Ben has also had to deal with injuries, motorcycle accidents, surgeries, etc. What is Eli's excuse?




Tony Romo has sick #'s in his first 4 1/2 games played

QB Rating = 100.0 #2 in the NFL
Completion % = 68.2 #2 in the NFL
Yards per att = 8.94 #1 in the NFL

3rd down stats:

completions = 32
attempts = 42
yards = 483
completion % = 76.2
yards per attempt = 11.50
QB Rating = 111.5

wanna see something even more sick?


3rd & 6+:

completions = 24
attempts = 28
yards = 340
completion % = 85.7
yards per attempt = 12.40
QB Rating = 114.3




I just can't get over how good he has been his first 4 starts. amazing
:shock:
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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I just can't get over how good he has been his first 4 starts. amazing
:shock:

I'm over it.

Rivers>Romo, Roetho, Retardo (Eli)
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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I think it's safe to say this thread should be re-named: "Eli Manning, Big Ben or JP Losman?"
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dre1614


I just can't get over how good he has been his first 4 starts. amazing
:shock:

I'm over it.

Rivers>Romo, Roetho, Retardo (Eli)
I think Romo and Rivers are pretty even
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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The object of football is to win championships, not to get QB's yardage. Who cares if your QB throws 15 times a game if you win a Super Bow.

Fantasy football and Madden has really harmed the average fan's knowledge of football.

And note to the Eli fangirls. Eli is 4-1 when throwing under 200 yards, 2-3 when throwing over 200 yards. Shows the Giants perform better when he isn't jacking the ball up 35 times a game.
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Old 11-22-2006, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dre1614
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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
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Originally Posted by dre1614


I just can't get over how good he has been his first 4 starts. amazing
:shock:

I'm over it.

Rivers>Romo, Roetho, Retardo (Eli)
I think Romo and Rivers are pretty even
Yeah they are even in the fact that niether has played enough games to be rated as highly as they are.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:37 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Mr. Stiller is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken
Up to the minute career passer rating -

Philip - 96.7 - 10 games
Ben - 90.4 - 30+ Games
Eli - 72.7 20+ Games
I didn't feel like looking it up, but it's practially like comparing a 1st year player to someone who's proven themself.

and once again, if Ben is just a product of the system, and QB not asked to do much, then so is Phillip.
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Old 11-22-2006, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...p-398484c.html

Wow, Coughlin is looking at film of Rivers to teach Eli. That's a little like a crying kid in the rain looking into the toy store window.
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Old 11-22-2006, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/story/473638p-398484c.html

Wow, Coughlin is looking at film of Rivers to teach Eli. That's a little like a crying kid in the rain looking into the toy store window.
Read the article closely. This is the New York Media at its finest. They take one sentence that can be interpreted several ways, and make a story out of it. If you notice, all Coughlin said was how he looked at the SD game to see what we were doing wrong, and then said it the difference was picking up the blitz. How on earth does that equate to what the writer interprets is far beyond me. He didn't say that Rivers is doing things that Eli isn't. He was referring to the entire offense, the protection, the scheme, and Manning (hence execution).

And this could very well be a motivational ploy by Coughlin to get Manning fired up. Who knows whats the reason, but the if you read that article closely, the guy took one sentence and made a story out of it.

Most of the things in that article are his own opinion, Coughlin didn't say much at all. He wrote his article in a way to imply that, but he's exaggerating and using manipulation. This happens here all the time. Bondy isn't even a football journalist, he's a soccer guy. The guy couldn't even tell you what an iform is.
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Old 11-22-2006, 01:16 PM    (permalink
eacantdraft
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If Coughlin has been reading the newspapers or listening to the radio at all, he must know that the Rivers-for-Manning-plus-the-kitchen-sink deal of 2004 has been a very hot topic of conversation around here this past week. When Coughlin says for the record he is now scouting Rivers in order to understand how an offense works properly, he is indirectly informing Ernie Accorsi that the general manager was an idiot for making the trade.
I like this quote. Even Coughlin knows that Ernie is an idiot.
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Old 11-22-2006, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChargerCohen
Quote:
Originally Posted by dre1614


I just can't get over how good he has been his first 4 starts. amazing
:shock:

I'm over it.

Rivers>Romo, Roetho, Retardo (Eli)
Career wise...Ben>Eli>Rivers>Romo

Right Now...Romo>Rivers>Ben>Eli...Yes, I'm saying Ben over Eli, The way he has been playing the last few weeks, he has shownb drastic improvement. He really should have had 0 INTS last week, three tipped catchable balls turned into picks. As of Right now, I think Ben is playing better than Eli
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Why couldn't Helen Keller drive?

She was a woman.
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