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Old 05-02-2007, 06:09 PM    (permalink
robert_in_bigd
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Yep, while I was typing my response to thule. Want a cookie?

LOL. Ya. Sure. Anyway.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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There is no way a 3rd round pick just gets cut. I expect Free and Marten to both, easily, make the team. Ireland said they are both for the future. They will both easily kick out Proctor or McQuistan if they have to. Some people have 8 offensive lineman active on sundays. For instance, San Diego had 8 active last year. I think they will all be on the 53 man roster, maybe Proctor gets cut. Free was great value, and should have been a late 2nd rounder, and Marten was a 3rd rounder. I don't think they will be cut.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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I think people are waaaaaaaaay undervaluing McQuistan's place on this team. If you'll recall, this guy was the story during training camp last year. From all reports, he has the ability to be a quality starter at one of the 3 most important positions on the team (LT). Not only that, but you'll recall that Jerry, going into the off-season, was telling his coaching staff that "McQuistan has got to be ready to start" next year. Does that sound like someone who is a borderline guy that might get cut? No, it doesn't.

In my mind, Pat is the future at LT until further notice. It's that simple. I have never heard Parcells gush about a young player the way that he did about McQuistan. It was extremely out of the ordinary for him to go out of his way to compliment and build a guy up like that. To use a Parcellism, "He's stayin'". That's all there is to it.

As for Marten and Free, I think one of them is going to have to have the versatility to be the swing tackle, in order for us to keep them activated on game day. I really wouldn't be surprised to see one of those guys get cut in camp. I know it's unusual, but with our oline like it is, that's how I feel.

Here is the number crunch:

Adams/Kosier/Gurode/Davis/Colombo= 5
McQuistan backup G/T =6
Proctor backup C/G = 7


That leaves either one or two more spots for O-line. If both Free AND Marten play well in camp, that would leave them as backup LT and RT, with one of them needing to be able to swing back and forth for game day. I think both will make the team, and that my scenario above will ultimately play out.
Marten has the skillset to be our swing guy. I'm not discounting McQ at all really...atleast in my mind...it might come out that way when I type. McQ is just at a disadvantage...because like I said if he for some reason cannot outplay Free on the outside...he is in a world of hurt. He would essentially have to outperform Marten on the inside...Proctor on the inside...and even if he was better than Proctor would he have the versatility to play the center position in a pinch. Those are the questions that I have with McQ. I also am curious to see if he has the ability to play the right side. Marten showed that he could play everywhere...I haven't seen that from McQ.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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That's not what I'm saying. The game day roster changes week to week based of health, opponent, game plan, who's doing well, etc. etc.

So I have no idea why you are trying to narrow down to a 45 man roster now. You wouldn't even be able to do it on the morning of game day.

We keep 53 men on the active roster. Discuss that. It makes entirely more sense.
He's determined to prove that our draft sucked even though TC hasn't even started yet. If he rationally took a look at the 53 man roster instead of ripping our draft picks he'd realize 7 out of 8 will probably make the final 53 barring injury.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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BP gushed about Pettiti too, and look where that got him. I think McQuistan will make it as a versitile backup T/G, and I think he'll be active. But he could just as well be with another team, you never know what TC will bring.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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robert, offensive linemen are not players you take to contribute immediately. I've said that before. Look at the Eagles. They arguably have the best OL in the NFC and have you noticed nothing? Because I have, and I'll show you:

LT: William Thomas - Winston Justice (picked last year in the second, didn't play a single snap, he wasn't even active for some games)
LG: Todd Herremans (was in practice squad his first year, played in only 4 games before starting all 16 games in his second season)
C: Jamaal Jackson (practice squad guy. Didn't start until his 4th year)
RG: Shwan Andrews (played 1 game in his rookie season and he was the SIXTEENTH OVERALL PICK)
RT: John Runyan (didn't start until his second season. They still miss a guy to replace him tough).

We do need to to grow up our OL. To do that you have to pick a guy who is not gonna contribute for 1 year and sometimes even more. You can't pick an OL and make him starting from his first game. Only a few number of players could start in their rookie season and play well.
So because we had to grow up a good line, we had to spend our picks on guys like Marten and Free, who both have very good starting potential.

I really don't know how you can say that Marten is gonna be PS! He was regarded as the best RT in the draft, he's a mauler and a very versatile player. We don't if he will make the roster, but right now the odds say YES for sure. He was a 3rd round pick, you don't put 3rd round picks in PS, you give them a chance, and they need at least 1 year to prove you if they were the right choice. If you put a 3rd round pick on PS, he will be picked IMMEDIATELY by another team. And that's the same thing for Free, who was regarded (firs by Kiper) as a guy with 2nd round potential.

If there's an OT who can be PS is more likely McQuistan. I know that the coaching staff was high on him, that he make a great block on the Austin return against Seattle, but he's the only guy of our 5 tackles who can be on PS and not be picked immediately by another team. And last year Sparano and Parcells seemed high on Petitti and his progressione, we all know how it ended up.

So I don't know how you can "hate" so much the Marten and Free picks. We do need offensive linemen, we do need 2 tackles with starting potential (Flozell is on the end of his career, and you don't know if Colombo was only a one year wonder). But having this need didn't allow you to pick a guy who can contribuite immediately, you have to wait. This strategy worked pretty well with the Eagles.

P.S.: Sorry for the grammar, but it's 1.30 a.m and I'm a little tired.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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Then you are out of your mind. A person's draft status is only the deciding factor on organizations that are perennial losers, and it's a big reason why, too. How a person plays should be/is the only factor in deciding whether they stay or not. McQuistan, imo, is as good a prospect as any of the tackles not named Thomas, Brown or Staley in this year's draft. He is that good, and will not be cut unless something extremely unlikely develops. Meanwhile, Marten was a stretch in the early 3rd, and Free was a borderline day 1 guy. I would take McQuistan in the draft 100x out of 100 over either one of those guys.

The organization knows that Pat has a lot to offer, Parcells was outspoken in his evaluation and estimation of his future promise as a player, and we're not just going to throw that away. It is much, much, more likely that we will be able to slip a guy that went to some small time school and wasn't drafted until late in the 4th round onto our practice squad, then a guy that has had a full year in the NFL, with a highly successful training camp, preseason, and some fill in on the regular season to show teams.

McQuistan is staying. Free or Marten would be cut before him. You guys are letting your draft fever cloud your ability to evaluate the players. You're seeing a 3rd rounder and a 4th rounder competing with a second year 7th rounder for a roster spot, instead of seeing James Marten and Doug Free competing with Pat McQuistan. Again, McQuistan is staying. I will be happy to place a sig bet with anyone on this topic.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Modano View Post
robert, offensive linemen are not players you take to contribute immediately. I've said that before. Look at the Eagles. They arguably have the best OL in the NFC and have you noticed nothing? Because I have, and I'll show you:

LT: William Thomas - Winston Justice (picked last year in the second, didn't play a single snap, he wasn't even active for some games)
LG: Todd Herremans (was in practice squad his first year, played in only 4 games before starting all 16 games in his second season)
C: Jamaal Jackson (practice squad guy. Didn't start until his 4th year)
RG: Shwan Andrews (played 1 game in his rookie season and he was the SIXTEENTH OVERALL PICK)
RT: John Runyan (didn't start until his second season. They still miss a guy to replace him tough).

We do need to to grow up our OL. To do that you have to pick a guy who is not gonna contribute for 1 year and sometimes even more. You can't pick an OL and make him starting from his first game. Only a few number of players could start in their rookie season and play well.
So because we had to grow up a good line, we had to spend our picks on guys like Marten and Free, who both have very good starting potential.

I really don't know how you can say that Marten is gonna be PS! He was regarded as the best RT in the draft, he's a mauler and a very versatile player. We don't if he will make the roster, but right now the odds say YES for sure. He was a 3rd round pick, you don't put 3rd round picks in PS, you give them a chance, and they need at least 1 year to prove you if they were the right choice. If you put a 3rd round pick on PS, he will be picked IMMEDIATELY by another team. And that's the same thing for Free, who was regarded (firs by Kiper) as a guy with 2nd round potential.

If there's an OT who can be PS is more likely McQuistan. I know that the coaching staff was high on him, that he make a great block on the Austin return against Seattle, but he's the only guy of our 5 tackles who can be on PS and not be picked immediately by another team. And last year Sparano and Parcells seemed high on Petitti and his progressione, we all know how it ended up.

So I don't know how you can "hate" so much the Marten and Free picks. We do need offensive linemen, we do need 2 tackles with starting potential (Flozell is on the end of his career, and you don't know if Colombo was only a one year wonder). But having this need didn't allow you to pick a guy who can contribuite immediately, you have to wait. This strategy worked pretty well with the Eagles.

P.S.: Sorry for the grammar, but it's 1.30 a.m and I'm a little tired.
I like Marten and Free. What is the beef?
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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BP gushed about Pettiti too, and look where that got him. I think McQuistan will make it as a versitile backup T/G, and I think he'll be active. But he could just as well be with another team, you never know what TC will bring.
Wrong. Parcells was complimentary of two things: 1) Rob's work ethic in getting himself together physically and 2) his feet in a comparison that he made with a young Jason Fabini. That was basically it. The press was trying to get Bill to open up about Pettiti, but all Parcells would do is deflect the question and say that "he has a chance". Nothing close to the way he acted with Pat.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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Marten and Free are great. It should put us in a good position on the offensive in the future. I hope we take a guard next year, boot Kosiar out, or just for the future as well.

Anyway, Robert in big d, why are you so pissed at this draft? Spencer, and the Browns pick next year makes it a B to B+ on its own. Add 2 future quality o-lineman, a great slasher, and some good developmental CBs, and I say A-.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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He's determined to prove that our draft sucked even though TC hasn't even started yet. If he rationally took a look at the 53 man roster instead of ripping our draft picks he'd realize 7 out of 8 will probably make the final 53 barring injury.
Maybe if you read my posts you would understand my position on our draft but it seems you have not.

I think our 2007 draft is horrid because on 1 or 2 guys will make any contribution to 2007.

This is why I say 45. You can not play 8 guys in suit and tie.

Now while the 8 change game to game -- there are only 2 or 3 names that routinely change.

Your use of the 53 man roster is a false strawman aimed to discredit my point.

Let me repeat so you may read: I think our 2007 draft is horrid because on 1 or 2 guys will make any contribution to 2007.

OK?
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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I still say all 3 make the roster, and the final spot will come down to Berger vs Procter. There is zero chance any of the 3 makes it to the PS. All three would be snatched up in a heartbeat. We still have to factor in injuries. We haven't had many in the last 2 years, but there is a pretty good chance one or two of our lineman will end up on IR.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Marten and Free are great. It should put us in a good position on the offensive in the future. I hope we take a guard next year, boot Kosiar out, or just for the future as well.

Anyway, Robert in big d, why are you so pissed at this draft? Spencer, and the Browns pick next year makes it a B to B+ on its own. Add 2 future quality o-lineman, a great slasher, and some good developmental CBs, and I say A-.
Because we had bigger needs than Spencer and could have used 36, 52 and 87 and 122 (?) to find contributors to a 2007 Super Bowl run.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Name the needs. This team has no holes. Pass rush is key. There was no better pick than Spencer at 26. We are still going to make a 2007 SB run.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Maybe if you read my posts you would understand my position on our draft but it seems you have not.

I think our 2007 draft is horrid because on 1 or 2 guys will make any contribution to 2007.

This is why I say 45. You can not play 8 guys in suit and tie.

Now while the 8 change game to game -- there are only 2 or 3 names that routinely change.

Your use of the 53 man roster is a false strawman aimed to discredit my point.

Let me repeat so you may read: I think our 2007 draft is horrid because on 1 or 2 guys will make any contribution to 2007.

OK?

Please give me the names of the eight guys you would have drafted this year who would have made any contribution to the team.

We did draft some projects, but that happens every year on every team. Outside of 1st round picks not to many lineman come and and contribute to a team that already has a solid line in place. It takes time to learn. How many teams are actually going to get significant help from the majority of their draft picks in their first year?

I'm not sold on all the guys we drafted, but they are Dallas Cowboys now, can we at least give the front office and the scouts some props for working hard to bring these guys here. If you want to say the draft sucks in October or December or next year at this time then be my guest, to say so before they even set foot on the practice field seems foolish to me.
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Old 05-02-2007, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Wrong. Parcells was complimentary of two things: 1) Rob's work ethic in getting himself together physically and 2) his feet in a comparison that he made with a young Jason Fabini. That was basically it. The press was trying to get Bill to open up about Pettiti, but all Parcells would do is deflect the question and say that "he has a chance". Nothing close to the way he acted with Pat.
Yeah you are right, but I think you are taking what Thule and myself are saying the wrong way. We all agree the guy has tons of potential, and should be a contributor this year. But to me factors such as new talent, injuries, new coaching staff etc mean there is no 100% guarantee he makes the squad. Do I think he will, absolutely, am I 100% positive, no.
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Because we had bigger needs than Spencer and could have used 36, 52 and 87 and 122 (?) to find contributors to a 2007 Super Bowl run.
I, too, would like to know the magical method whereby you think we could find rookies to contribute to a Super Bowl caliber team. Our roster is so deep right now that a lot of the players will struggle just to make it, let alone get on the field.

Spencer is as NFL ready a player as there was outside the top 11, and moreso than any of them but Willis, AD, CJ, Thomas, Adams and Landry. While he may not fill a "need" as in position, he definitely feels a need in regards to "skill" or "production". We needed some help to get more pressure on the QB, and he will help us do that in a potentially big-time way.

Aside from that, this draft didn't have many impact players that could have helped us who were on the board when we picked. I would have like to see us get McCauley in the 3rd, and I think he could have really helped out on our nickel defense. But as far as the 4th goes....you weren't going to get much help this season. We need top-end players at most positions if we are going to improve our situation there. You aren't going to find those at any of the spots we have except our 1st rounder. So, that's why I say that if Spencer becomes as good as we expect, the draft will be at least a marginal success.

There is no reason to hate like you have been doing. Though I don't blame you for being underwhelmed. The question is: what could we have done about it?
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Yes, please, tell us. There are no real holes Our team is covered. Now it is just about staying healthy and executing.
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Old 05-02-2007, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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Please give me the names of the eight guys you would have drafted this year who would have made any contribution to the team.

We did draft some projects, but that happens every year on every team. Outside of 1st round picks not to many lineman come and and contribute to a team that already has a solid line in place. It takes time to learn. How many teams are actually going to get significant help from the majority of their draft picks in their first year?

I'm not sold on all the guys we drafted, but they are Dallas Cowboys now, can we at least give the front office and the scouts some props for working hard to bring these guys here. If you want to say the draft sucks in October or December or next year at this time then be my guest, to say so before they even set foot on the practice field seems foolish to me.
JDNOYES & DMW ... you must have missed it ....... each pick 36 to 159 is likely on the active 45 man roster ........

36- Sidney Rice (WR) -- our replacement for Hurd or Crayton, future #1
53- Gerald Alexander (S) -- Free Safety
87- Paul Soliai (NT) -- Back up NT
122- Doug Free (LT) -- Future LT
159- Mike Coe (CB) -- Get rid of Reeves or Jones ....
195- Jacob Ford (OLB) -- Backup and special teams, Burnett replacement
200- Jordan Palmer (QB) -- Development QB
212- Ben Patrick (TE) -- Talented TE, replace Curtis
234- Brandon Siler (ILB) -- Back up for now
237- 370lbs Thomas (NT) -- Dreamy dreams

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Old 05-02-2007, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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No way Alexander makes the roster. He doesn't have half the ability of Watkins or Hamlin. He got moved from corner because he couldn't cover. He got drafted as a cover 2 safety...I personally thought he was a reach. Also remember that this is all hindsight...who would have guessed Coe would be available at 159...who woulda thought Free was available in the 4th....Been Patrick in the 6th round is crazy talk the day before the draft.
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Old 05-02-2007, 11:05 PM    (permalink
jdnoyes
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd View Post
JDNOYES & DMW ... you must have missed it ....... each pick 36 to 159 is likely on the active 45 man roster ........

36- Sidney Rice (WR) -- our replacement for Hurd or Crayton, future #1
53- Gerald Alexander (S) -- Free Safety
87- Paul Soliai (NT) -- Back up NT
122- Doug Free (LT) -- Future LT
159- Mike Coe (CB) -- Get rid of Reeves or Jones ....
195- Jacob Ford (OLB) -- Backup and special teams, Burnett replacement
200- Jordan Palmer (QB) -- Development QB
212- Ben Patrick (TE) -- Talented TE, replace Curtis
234- Brandon Siler (ILB) -- Back up for now
237- 370lbs Thomas (NT) -- Dreamy dreams

Great bunch of names there, i'm not going to knock the players, but I hardly see how this group would provide more contributors than the group we drafted. I see zero starters on your list. At least Spencer, Anderson and Folk (if you wanna count kicker) have a chance to crack our starting lineup. Rice would get very little playing time barring injury, he is a pretty raw talent. Soliai might see the field a bit assuming he can play consistantly at the pro level which is a big question mark. Coe might get some nickel or dime work at some point, but other than that I see nothing on your list besides special teams and developmental guys.

We drafted 3 potential starters counting Folk, and several others who just may contribute this year, on a team with as much talent as we have thats pretty good if you ask me.

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Old 05-02-2007, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd View Post
JDNOYES & DMW ... you must have missed it ....... each pick 36 to 159 is likely on the active 45 man roster ........

36- Sidney Rice (WR) -- our replacement for Hurd or Crayton, future #1
53- Gerald Alexander (S) -- Free Safety
87- Paul Soliai (NT) -- Back up NT
122- Doug Free (LT) -- Future LT
159- Mike Coe (CB) -- Get rid of Reeves or Jones ....
195- Jacob Ford (OLB) -- Backup and special teams, Burnett replacement
200- Jordan Palmer (QB) -- Development QB
212- Ben Patrick (TE) -- Talented TE, replace Curtis
234- Brandon Siler (ILB) -- Back up for now
237- 370lbs Thomas (NT) -- Dreamy dreams
Somebody grab me a barf bag!
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:17 AM    (permalink
robert_in_bigd
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No way Alexander makes the roster. He doesn't have half the ability of Watkins or Hamlin. He got moved from corner because he couldn't cover. He got drafted as a cover 2 safety...I personally thought he was a reach. Also remember that this is all hindsight...who would have guessed Coe would be available at 159...who woulda thought Free was available in the 4th....Been Patrick in the 6th round is crazy talk the day before the draft.
OK, you are not too smart. All these players where available when the Cowboys would have picked if they had stayed put at 36. Not a theoretical game.

So Cover 2 Safeties can't cover according to you and Alexander stinks b/c he was moved fro CB to Safety?

Interesting b/c most Cover 2 Safeties actually are forced to cover lots more than safeties in man schemes. The fact Alexander was a CB and moved to safety means he can cover.

All I know is Ed Reed was a CB when he got to Miami. Ronnie Lott was a CB.... you see where this discussion is going?

You are argumentative without any analysis to support your arguments or willing to give an inch on an incredibly silly set of ideas.
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:19 AM    (permalink
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Great bunch of names there, i'm not going to knock the players, but I hardly see how this group would provide more contributors than the group we drafted. I see zero starters on your list. At least Spencer, Anderson and Folk (if you wanna count kicker) have a chance to crack our starting lineup. Rice would get very little playing time barring injury, he is a pretty raw talent. Soliai might see the field a bit assuming he can play consistantly at the pro level which is a big question mark. Coe might get some nickel or dime work at some point, but other than that I see nothing on your list besides special teams and developmental guys.

We drafted 3 potential starters counting Folk, and several others who just may contribute this year, on a team with as much talent as we have thats pretty good if you ask me.
You gotta be blind. That group plays this year. Not saying starters but I know most of the top picks are active on Game Day.

The guys Jerry picked -- mark it down -- will only have ONE guy who plays at at all this year.

Anyway, moving on. Compare notes in October.
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Old 05-03-2007, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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Somebody grab me a barf bag!
Nice analysis. Not much to discuss with you.

As I said, your comments and thoughts are indicative of what you know.

You are Achilles II. You argue but present no competing ideas or for that matter reasonable ones ....

..... which explains all this Stanback silliness for a medicore college player drafted in the 4th round (too early) to play a position he does not know how to play and then we are shown a YouTube showing us 1 college play while ignoring his lack of production at UDubb.

Compare results in October. G' Luck.
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