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Old 05-03-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
Paul
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Originally Posted by thule View Post
Roy Williams needed to lose bulk or get traded.
Bradie James was gone because he didn't have the coverage smarts.
Shaun Rogers/Jerry Porter/ATL WR's were attainable
Marcus Spears could play NT in a 2 gap scheme
Roy Williams could play the OLB position
Henry could play FS
some other things too that are slipping my mind.


If we want to talk about memories. I don't think anyone can beat this. Must have been 2 years ago now...D-Unit was a new poster and thought he could fill up one page of posts with one really long post...it was really long but D didn't realize at the time pages were split by number of posts. Great flashback imo.
CF and Tnew are polar opposites in a way, but equally annoying.

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Old 05-03-2007, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Who is CF?

And I only sound like a huge homer because I am really excited about this season. People that don't know the cowboys roster well or hate the Cowboys don't see that we have no holes. I expect dominance.
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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no the point is that come draft day you wouldn't have known who would be available later, when making early picks.

but whatever I sure you know more than the professionals. Keep on proclaiming your opinions as facts.
OMG, you guys are really stubborn and seemingly unwilling to listen to other's opinions. You confuse strategy with execution and you confuse a strawman I presented as the players Jerry should have taken. NOOOOOOO!

Maddening to keep repeating the same -- OK, here we go once again and with out names .....

I could care less of the specific names picked and to your point who knew who would be around but the strategy deployed by Mr Jones on draft day yielded us players who will not contribute in 2007. Let us assume we have collected some very very very talented players but it is unlikely they will contribute.

Let me present the following ..........

Spencer becomes LT, Isaiah may become Jerry Rice AND Joe Montana. Marten will become Big E. Free will become Anthony Munoz. Nick Folk will become Morton Anderson. Deom Anderson Lorenzo Neal and Brown will become Deion Sanders .............. that would be a GREAT DRAFT and a testament to Jerry finding players. The greatest of ALL TIME!

But it will 1) take some time to develop, 2) require the guys they replace lose their talent and effort and 3) require the coaches trust them. The closest to the field should be Spencer and he needs to beat Ellis, Singleton, Carpenter and Glymph for meaningful time. The others ,,,,, get to watch under the most optimistic probable scenarios.

So, given how talented the team is and the state of the NFC I would have gone for the guys most able to contribute to the 2007 team. Jerry went with promise.

I think I need to just TNew/Achilles my arguments and say guys are taking dumps on others to simplify the discussion.
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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CF and Tnew are polar opposites in a way, but equally annoying.
No more than others who play the role of knowledgable and then flip flop later once someone on TV tells them to. At least TNew/Achilles say it straight no matter how silly.
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd View Post
OMG, you guys are really stubborn and seemingly unwilling to listen to other's opinions. You confuse strategy with execution and you confuse a strawman I presented as the players Jerry should have taken. NOOOOOOO!

Maddening to keep repeating the same -- OK, here we go once again and with out names .....

I could care less of the specific names picked and to your point who knew who would be around but the strategy deployed by Mr Jones on draft day yielded us players who will not contribute in 2007. Let us assume we have collected some very very very talented players but it is unlikely they will contribute.

Let me present the following ..........

Spencer becomes LT, Isaiah may become Jerry Rice AND Joe Montana. Marten will become Big E. Free will become Anthony Munoz. Nick Folk will become Morton Anderson. Deom Anderson Lorenzo Neal and Brown will become Deion Sanders .............. that would be a GREAT DRAFT and a testament to Jerry finding players. The greatest of ALL TIME!

But it will 1) take some time to develop, 2) require the guys they replace lose their talent and effort and 3) require the coaches trust them. The closest to the field should be Spencer and he needs to beat Ellis, Singleton, Carpenter and Glymph for meaningful time. The others ,,,,, get to watch under the most optimistic probable scenarios.

So, given how talented the team is and the state of the NFC I would have gone for the guys most able to contribute to the 2007 team. Jerry went with promise.

I think I need to just TNew/Achilles my arguments and say guys are taking dumps on others to simplify the discussion.
hahahaha glad to see right after I comment on you trying to pass your opinions as facts you reply and try to pass your opinion as facts.

note how the respectable posters on this site say "I THINK so and so will be busts" or "I THINK so and so will turn out."

Fact is you are an amateur. You don't know more than anybody in the NFL. So quit acting like your opinion is fact. If you really think that you know everything, then I know some people who actually get paid for their knowledge, that would probably be willing to talk to you about players/laugh you off the phone.

I don't care if you were to think this is the worst draft in history. You could list your reasons why and we could all have a good discussion. If you try to play prophet like you often do and say a player will never turn out or whatever, then that is when you will get bashed. Nobody likes people that think they know it all.
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Old 05-03-2007, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Exactly.....
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Old 05-03-2007, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Robert in Big D, what is wrong with you. We had a great draft. I don't know why you are crying like a little girl.

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Old 05-04-2007, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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But it will 1) take some time to develop, 2) require the guys they replace lose their talent and effort and 3) require the coaches trust them. The closest to the field should be Spencer and he needs to beat Ellis, Singleton, Carpenter and Glymph for meaningful time. The others ,,,,, get to watch under the most optimistic probable scenarios.
And guess why! If a team wants to make a super bowl run, or at least is regarded as one of the better teams in his conference, you can't expect his rookies to have a big impact from their first season.

1 19 Antonio Cromartie CB Florida State
2 50 Marcus McNeill T Auburn
3 81 Charlie Whitehurst QB Clemson
5 151 Tim Dobbins ILB Iowa State
6 187 Jeromey Clary T Kansas State
6 188 Kurt Smith K Virginia
7 225 Chase Page DT North Carolina
7 227 Jimmy Martin G Virginia Tech

What is this list? It's the list of draft picks by the Chargers' last year. They were expected to make a super bowl run, so their rookies dind't have a huge impact.
The only guy who was an immediate starter for them was Marcus McNeil, who was a great surprise.
Cromartie became the NB late in the season (and they had a lot more problems than us with their CBs), Whitehurst was their 3rd string QB, Dobbins, made 19 tackles, Clary, Smith, Martin are no longer on the team.
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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Love the picture Achilles. Seriously funny.

Wait till October ladies then I can hear you whine like with Carpenter and Fasano last year.

Nobody likes a know it all! Precisely guys. We have differing opinions.

On football, I have stated repeatedly you guys know CFB players better. I know team chaos better. What more can I say.
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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And guess why! If a team wants to make a super bowl run, or at least is regarded as one of the better teams in his conference, you can't expect his rookies to have a big impact from their first season.

1 19 Antonio Cromartie CB Florida State
2 50 Marcus McNeill T Auburn
3 81 Charlie Whitehurst QB Clemson
5 151 Tim Dobbins ILB Iowa State
6 187 Jeromey Clary T Kansas State
6 188 Kurt Smith K Virginia
7 225 Chase Page DT North Carolina
7 227 Jimmy Martin G Virginia Tech

What is this list? It's the list of draft picks by the Chargers' last year. They were expected to make a super bowl run, so their rookies dind't have a huge impact.
The only guy who was an immediate starter for them was Marcus McNeil, who was a great surprise.
Cromartie became the NB late in the season (and they had a lot more problems than us with their CBs), Whitehurst was their 3rd string QB, Dobbins, made 19 tackles, Clary, Smith, Martin are no longer on the team.
1) First two picks where expected to play immediately.

2) No one expected a SB run with a newbie QB. That is why they went Whitehurst.

Bad example. Try again.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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1) First two picks where expected to play immediately.

2) No one expected a SB run with a newbie QB. That is why they went Whitehurst.

Bad example. Try again.
What are you talking about a whole bunch of people had them going to the Super Bowl! They had the best player in the NFL a great defense and Rivers had 2 years to sit and learn. And as you said earlier nobody likes a know it all!
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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What are you talking about a whole bunch of people had them going to the Super Bowl! They had the best player in the NFL a great defense and Rivers had 2 years to sit and learn. And as you said earlier nobody likes a know it all!
Very very very few had the San Diego Chargers going to the Super Bowl last year with Phillip Rivers making his first start at the beginning of 2006.

Nobody likes a know it all but what is more distasteful are individuals who disagree for the sake of disagreeing without addressing what you are disagreeing about.

Focus. Stop re-writing history. Coming out of the 2006 draft both Cromartie and McNeill where expected to play. No one expected the Chargers to be that good, let along SUper Bowl contenders. Everyone has them 3rd or 4th in their own division with Denver and KC ahead of them. In fact some folks thought OAK was better. On a book basis, San Diego was 30-1 and the Raiders where 15 -1.

Stop confusing outcomes with expectations. Google it as your generation says if you need proof.

So, try again.

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Old 05-04-2007, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Thank robert in big D, I thought you would like it.

Anyway, I can understand why you aren't thrilled particularly thrilled with this draft. Because Spencer and the 2 lineman, much doesn't pop out as future starters. But, Stanback has amazing potential, and will contribute immediatly, Folk could be a good kicker, and Brown could be a good CB somewhere down the line will his tools.

The fact that we got Spencer and a top 5 pick should already make you excited. Oh well, suite yourself.
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Thank robert in big D, I thought you would like it.

Anyway, I can understand why you aren't thrilled particularly thrilled with this draft. Because Spencer and the 2 lineman, much doesn't pop out as future starters. But, Stanback has amazing potential, and will contribute immediatly, Folk could be a good kicker, and Brown could be a good CB somewhere down the line will his tools.

The fact that we got Spencer and a top 5 pick should already make you excited. Oh well, suite yourself.
I will get jacked next year once it is here. Hope Cleveland decides to scrap 2007 and start Quinn with Thomas. Rookie LT and QB with a bad running game... how beautiful.
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Very very very few had the San Diego Chargers going to the Super Bowl last year with Phillip Rivers making his first start at the beginning of 2006.

Nobody likes a know it all but what is more distasteful are individuals who disagree for the sake of disagreeing without addressing what you are disagreeing about.

Focus. Stop re-writing history. Coming out of the 2006 draft both Cromartie and McNeill where expected to play. No one expected the Chargers to be that good, let along SUper Bowl contenders. Everyone has them 3rd or 4th in their own division with Denver and KC ahead of them. In fact some folks thought OAK was better. On a book basis, San Diego was 30-1 and the Raiders where 15 -1.

Stop confusing outcomes with expectations. Google it as your generation says if you need proof.

So, try again.
No, they weren't. Cromartie was expected to play the nickel defense, and no one should have expected this type of season by McNeill, wo was projected to begin the season on the bench.
By the way, our first round pick will have more impact than Cromartie, and Anderson could be our starting FB. Here they are your two players.
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Old 05-05-2007, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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Not to mention there defense. :)
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Old 05-08-2007, 03:13 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, the Chargers were not the pick by most for the Superbowl run...

...but as to the theme of this thread, I love the idea of a guy who's an athlete and has the ability to throw as well. He's a dangerous tool used in a lot of different ways. I'd like to think of him more of a WR/RB/QB. He can take direct snaps in certain scenarios... He's going to lead to a lot of second guessing for defenses.

I think it's an exciting season coming up for Dallas one way or another. Time for the 'Boys to build off the play-off buzz...
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Old 05-09-2007, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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No, they weren't. Cromartie was expected to play the nickel defense, and no one should have expected this type of season by McNeill, wo was projected to begin the season on the bench.
By the way, our first round pick will have more impact than Cromartie, and Anderson could be our starting FB. Here they are your two players.

Once again the reading comprehension function is off........ You are arguing something having nothing to do with the point you originally made.

1) McNeill and Cromartie where expected to play starting in 2006. How much or how well is always a wild card. All I pointed out was that in SD's 2006 draft they drafted to fill needs for 2006 with their early picks. Not developmental dudes for 2010 like the Cowboys have with this year's draft

2) If you think our first two will do as well as Cromartie and McNeill -- well shoot I hope you are right. But this is a PREDICTION that may rsult wrong. I think it will result wrong.

3) A 6th round full back? We are talking about a 6th round full back? What happin to Stanback becoming Jerry Rice next year?

Get off these newbies jocks till they prove something. One thing is hope and another are rationale expectations given where they where drafted and what our softest spots are. The weaker you are in a position the more likely a 6th rounder will play.
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Old 05-09-2007, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Once again the reading comprehension function is off........ You are arguing something having nothing to do with the point you originally made.

1) McNeill and Cromartie where expected to play starting in 2006. How much or how well is always a wild card. All I pointed out was that in SD's 2006 draft they drafted to fill needs for 2006 with their early picks. Not developmental dudes for 2010 like the Cowboys have with this year's draft

2) If you think our first two will do as well as Cromartie and McNeill -- well shoot I hope you are right. But this is a PREDICTION that may rsult wrong. I think it will result wrong.

3) A 6th round full back? We are talking about a 6th round full back? What happin to Stanback becoming Jerry Rice next year?

Get off these newbies jocks till they prove something. One thing is hope and another are rationale expectations given where they where drafted and what our softest spots are. The weaker you are in a position the more likely a 6th rounder will play.
I've said that the Cowboys, like the Chargers last year, are expected to be a contender in their conference. If you have a team that could be a contender you can't expect their rookies to had a major impact.

McNeil wasn't expected to start the season from game 1. There were some major question marks on him, like his problems with his back. And Cromartie didn't play that much too. He was their nickel and dime back, and he played above average. He had some shinings moments but some bad ones too, like being torched in the game againts the Bengals. He wasn't drafted to contribute immediately, because he even didn't play his last season in college.

So their first two picks weren't picked to contribute from the first game. That's pretty much a fact. They were very high on McNeill, but usually you don't see a rookie LT starting.
And I'll repeat that once again: Cromartie missed and entire season due to injuries, he wasn't expected to start, he was draft for the future because a) until last season, Jammer was an above averager corne b) Florence is nothing special

They filled their needs for the future, they drafted devolopmental guys. They were lucky, because McNeill had an amazing season, but usually if you draft a LT you don't expect him to start in his first season.

The Cowboys pressing needs were two: an increment of pass rush, and a couple of OLs for the future.
They take Spencer (who is expected to start or at least be an important player for the rotation) to solve the pass rush problems, and they pick Marten and Free to be the replacement for Adams and Colombo. And if you want to draft OTs, you have to draft a developmental guy, someone who should sit on the bench for at least 1 year.

Which needs for the 2006 should we have picked?
The only two things that come in my mind are safety and cornerback. You can make a point for the safety, but a rookie CB could have played only the nickel or dime spot.
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Old 05-09-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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I've said that the Cowboys, like the Chargers last year, are expected to be a contender in their conference. If you have a team that could be a contender you can't expect their rookies to had a major impact.

McNeil wasn't expected to start the season from game 1. There were some major question marks on him, like his problems with his back. And Cromartie didn't play that much too. He was their nickel and dime back, and he played above average. He had some shinings moments but some bad ones too, like being torched in the game againts the Bengals. He wasn't drafted to contribute immediately, because he even didn't play his last season in college.

So their first two picks weren't picked to contribute from the first game. That's pretty much a fact. They were very high on McNeill, but usually you don't see a rookie LT starting.
And I'll repeat that once again: Cromartie missed and entire season due to injuries, he wasn't expected to start, he was draft for the future because a) until last season, Jammer was an above averager corne b) Florence is nothing special

They filled their needs for the future, they drafted devolopmental guys. They were lucky, because McNeill had an amazing season, but usually if you draft a LT you don't expect him to start in his first season.

The Cowboys pressing needs were two: an increment of pass rush, and a couple of OLs for the future.
They take Spencer (who is expected to start or at least be an important player for the rotation) to solve the pass rush problems, and they pick Marten and Free to be the replacement for Adams and Colombo. And if you want to draft OTs, you have to draft a developmental guy, someone who should sit on the bench for at least 1 year.

Which needs for the 2006 should we have picked?
The only two things that come in my mind are safety and cornerback. You can make a point for the safety, but a rookie CB could have played only the nickel or dime spot.
The Chargers were not expected to contend last year. The Cowboys were. Why do you insist on twisting this around? Either way.

The Chargers took good talent in 2006 at the spots they needed (CB and LT). It paid off big time. Cowboys did not do that this year regardless of the fact these guys may all be fantastic .... but in 2009.

With respect to the Cowboys in 2006, I personally stated we should have gone Lawson for WOLB and move Ware to SOLB. I was called nuts by many of the "Vets" on the board. We took Carpenter as a SOLB. I like Carpenter but not for what the Cowboys needed in 2006 .... a pass rushing WOLB which Lawson could have been a better fit. A horrid decision driven by BP with Jerry's silliness.

Fast forward the past 2006 season with a poor rush so we go into the 2007 offseason by .... drafting another OLB (Spencer) because Carpenter was not the guy at WOLB or SOLB, Ware is the best SOLB in the NFL but not WOLB.

Problem is we are now overloaded at LB (**so much so our rejects go to the Saints and start**) that our ILB "Leader" Bradie James ($20MM) is expected to ride the pines b/c Carpenter is a better overall talent and we have 1st round money on him.

In summary we used the 18th pick on an ILB in 2006, passed on a passing rushing WOLB (Lawson), had to redraft a WOLB in 2007 (Spencer), need to reposition our All Pro OLB to the Strong Side (Ware) and mis-spent $20MM on a great back up (James).

FANTASTIC JERRY!!!!!!! And Bill.

By the way, with Wade's system the talent from 2006 would be much better rushing the QB so .. the Spencer move reaked of desperation when none really should have existed.

To boot in 2006, we went Fasano which was dumb given we had Witten and Flo was coming off a knee injury. Hello McNeill.

This year's draft was no different in terms of mistakes made IMHO and the repercussions going forward.
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Old 05-09-2007, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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BTW Modano, at 36 I would have gone Rice and then maybe S/CB at 52. Both would have made the field this year with Rice being and end-zone jump ball guy and the S/CB need is clear.
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Old 05-10-2007, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Rob...your wrong man...one the FO decided to make the decision to move Ellis to the outside...Carp was an insurance policy. Much like Spencer is this year. Ellis is going to start if he is the best player at that position. The thing is Carp was being groomed to be our vrabel. Which he can still be. But he was getting time at SOLB/SILB/Nickel LB....he was going to be our utility guy. So my question to you is....what happens if ellis can't make the conversion. Now we move Ware who's responsibilities become completely different on the strong side? Make him learn another position when he is already have trouble setting up OT's? He was only in his 2nd year...seems like a waste to put more development into him when he isn't even NFL ready imo. Leave Lawson on the weak side to get abused by OT's because it was clear at his weight he wouldnt' be able to rush 80 plays a game. He also didn't have the field awareness to play in parcell's scheme at the weak side. Ware was almost exclusively left in coverage his first year just because of that fact.

So you now you wanna draft having Bobby start in the middle first time. I don't buy it...because essentially James lost his spot this year do to the scheme change. He would still be starting in a 2 gap scheme...whether he was exposed in coverage or not...he is the ideal SILB. Now Wade comes in and requires more speed from his ILB's because his outside rushers go after the QB more in his system. Now his ILB's are covering halves in zones and man. This is something that James just cannot do...it's not his fault either...he just doesn't have the body type required for it. If anything the Carpenter pick looks genious right now...because lets face it...we would have be trading up to land Willis had we not had him. ILB corp in this draft is terrible and the OLB class held value slightly after we picked. It's almost like Nostradamus was in the draft room last year.
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Old 05-10-2007, 08:29 AM    (permalink
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Rob...your wrong man...one the FO decided to make the decision to move Ellis to the outside...Carp was an insurance policy. Much like Spencer is this year. Ellis is going to start if he is the best player at that position. The thing is Carp was being groomed to be our vrabel. Which he can still be. But he was getting time at SOLB/SILB/Nickel LB....he was going to be our utility guy. So my question to you is....what happens if ellis can't make the conversion. Now we move Ware who's responsibilities become completely different on the strong side? Make him learn another position when he is already have trouble setting up OT's? He was only in his 2nd year...seems like a waste to put more development into him when he isn't even NFL ready imo. Leave Lawson on the weak side to get abused by OT's because it was clear at his weight he wouldnt' be able to rush 80 plays a game. He also didn't have the field awareness to play in parcell's scheme at the weak side. Ware was almost exclusively left in coverage his first year just because of that fact.

So you now you wanna draft having Bobby start in the middle first time. I don't buy it...because essentially James lost his spot this year do to the scheme change. He would still be starting in a 2 gap scheme...whether he was exposed in coverage or not...he is the ideal SILB. Now Wade comes in and requires more speed from his ILB's because his outside rushers go after the QB more in his system. Now his ILB's are covering halves in zones and man. This is something that James just cannot do...it's not his fault either...he just doesn't have the body type required for it. If anything the Carpenter pick looks genious right now...because lets face it...we would have be trading up to land Willis had we not had him. ILB corp in this draft is terrible and the OLB class held value slightly after we picked. It's almost like Nostradamus was in the draft room last year.
Well, we disagree. Not sure I see where.

First, Lawson, last I checked, is playing 3-4 OLB so I am not sure how he was such a bad pick for BP's 3-4. All this body type talk is just that. Sounds like the Spears discussion at NT. Don't see it. Sorry. Maybe it is just me.

Second, NO ONE expected Ellis to play as well as he did. And fact is he played pretty good b/c he had no coverage role. He basically played the position he played at for most of his career. BP's SOLB usually has coverage responsibility (Carl Banks Hello!). They built the D around this weakness.

Third, I like Bobby. I have nothing bad to say of him. He is a excellent LB but not exceptional at any one thing. I like the Vrabel comparison but even NE had McGinest to bring the heat and Ware is not McGinest. Maybe Spencer can be McGinest/LT type rusher.

Fourth, Wade needs a 350lb NT to get away with speedier LB corp (Godfrey and Edwards) to replicate SD. Not sure the Cowboys have that type NT to play two gap while freeing the others to cover or play one gap.

All good though man. I hope all our guys become stars.
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Old 05-10-2007, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Fourth, Wade needs a 350lb NT to get away with speedier LB corp (Godfrey and Edwards) to replicate SD. Not sure the Cowboys have that type NT to play two gap while freeing the others to cover or play one gap.

Wade has come out and said he doesnt want 350 lb nose tackles. He wants quicker guys to attack from that position.
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Old 05-10-2007, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Wade has come out and said he doesnt want 350 lb nose tackles. He wants quicker guys to attack from that position.
Well then I am sure he will not get away with two 230lb ILB in a 3-4 like he did in SD.

Wade will do a great job with who he has.
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