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Old 05-03-2007, 03:48 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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Originally Posted by Bigburt63 View Post
when ur offense consists of mainly 3 wr sets then yes i would consider him a starter. how many teams actually start with a fb in the game consistently?



also, this is from the patriots website that has pioli and bellicheck talking about the recent moves (someone said the movie links weren't working.

http://www.patriots.com/news/index.c...=25070&pcid=41
A lot of defenses contain a nickel CB in their main defense. But no one calls the 3rd CB a starter.
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Why do people listen to this crap from BSPN? I just hate how they overhype everything.
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Non_Sequitur View Post
A lot of defenses contain a nickel CB in their main defense. But no one calls the 3rd CB a starter.
if a team runs a 4-3 as their base defense, who gets more time (usually), the 3rd corner or the guy they took off the field?

and anyways, the starting team is usually called by the base offense or defense. in the case of the patriots, who run a 3 wr set ALOT the 3rd, or slot, wr is a starter
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Old 05-03-2007, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Reaction from players explaining why Randy will change, and why I am not remotely worried:

http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=96546
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:02 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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Reaction from players explaining why Randy will change, and why I am not remotely worried:

http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=96546
He was a loudmouth in Minnesota when he was winning too..... and when he was working with a HOF WR.
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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They weren't until this breaking news story hit:

Tom Brady was seen in the city wearing a Yankees hat!

You know it's the offseason when that is news.
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Old 05-03-2007, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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He was a loudmouth in Minnesota when he was winning too..... and when he was working with a HOF WR.
What does that have to do with the video?
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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This is getting overly personal. Of course the Patriots aren't infallible. And of course theres a chance Moss won't fit in. But there are factors working in the Patriots(and ultimately Randy's favor) here that Jay has mentioned. Can anyone be 100% positive that it will work? No.
I find the fact that we're having a bullcrap argument about bullcrap(specifically, Randy's) to be highly amusing, personally.
As for the move being out of character, I don't think that's true. A player of Moss's caliber has never been available to us before, that's true. But we have had movement(too much of it) at the wide receiver position. If Moss had fallen into our laps last year, I don't have any doubt that we would have taken him. So it's not really a change in philosophy. If anything, this move was classic Patriots. We only traded away a 4th round pick. What are we known for? Getting players that we like for value. Regardless of how he played last year, a 4th round pick for Moss is a damned fine value.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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What does that have to do with the video?
Did you not watch it yourself? Lol.
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Old 05-03-2007, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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I'd just like to point out that Moss was a great teammate in Oakland. The guys caused no media issues, drew rave reviews in interviews from other Oakland players, and apparently worked as hard as anyone.

The reason I hate him is because he completely gave up by week 10, even when we were getting the ball to him. I don't expect that to be an issue in New England.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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desperate? no there just wanting to make one more run before they lose some of there key defencive players
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Old 05-04-2007, 06:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
rodney harrison (to paraphrase) - Moss won't miss this opportunity to win games with a championship team! All he wants to do is win!

wow, yeah, there's some objective ****. all TO wanted was to win, too.

further harrison (on how moss needs to act to fit in) - He has to take his craft seriously and work on the field. If he doesn't, we'll get in his face and tell him he has to.

more strong words. boy, they'll get in his face? i'd further say that has a LOT to do with Non-Sequiter's quote, but it's cool. feel free to disregard things because you posted a video of some pat's players opinions. that's bloody brilliant 'evidence' that's completely without bias. fantastic.

ooh, then we get to Dan Koppen - I have a lot of respect for him as a player! I've never met him, so I'll base my opinions on complete hearsay. Guys will be able to effectively police him.

wow, yeah, again, some player who admits he knows nothing about moss saying the pats will "take him aside" and that that should be clear evidence he'll straighten out.

worthless video that you likely posted in the hope no one would watch it. that entire video weakened your case, as the entire thing is pats players essentially supporting them own team. gosh, i'm sure the bengals never said similar things about henry, thurmann or brooks.

i'm so sick of this worthless argument. your team is not bloody infallible, this has been an abnormal off-season and there is some chance moss won't fit in with the pats. get over it.
Uh... yeah, not worthless at all, it's many of the key people on the team saying EXACTLY what I am saying. That THEY DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN. It's different here, and if you went to school here and followed the team for half a microsecond, you should know that. So for the billionth time, I am not REMOTELY worried. AT ALL. EVER. And I there is absolutely ZERO reason why I should be. It's never happened in the seven years that Pioli and Belichick has been here, so until it does, I don't believe it will. Am I saying it can't and never will happen? Not at all. It can. But until it does, it hasn't, and based on SEVEN YEARS, I don't think it will.

So since you watched the video, are you going to listen to the interviews? Of course not, because then you wouldn't be able to pull things out of your ass and act like a big shot. I have no problem with people being fair and objective about my team, but I am NOT going to sit here and watch people act ignorant or TELL ME I don't know what I am talking about when it comes to my team. That's crap. You are in over your head and you are flat out W-R-O-N-G.

How about this quote from a RAIDER FAN smarty pants:

Quote:
I'd just like to point out that Moss was a great teammate in Oakland. The guys caused no media issues, drew rave reviews in interviews from other Oakland players, and apparently worked as hard as anyone.
*gasp*

No way! Positive words about Randy Moss? A good teammate? Say it ain't so! I thought he was a cancer and was going to destroy the Patriots?

This is business as usual. Period. The Pat spent the last few years signing the guys they already had up for the long term, and now that they have that out of the way, they moved on to bringing in other parts to make the team better. They are ALWAYS striving to make the team better. They have taken in PLENTY of players with questionable MO's and never had significant issues. The worst incident we've had is Monty Beisel getting pissed at a reporter and then berating our director of PR in front of them, and he got his ass kicked to the curve a week or two later.

Deion Branch started a stir, he's gone.

Corey Dillon started getting sour at the end of the season, he's gone.

If Randy Moss wants to pull any crap, he's next.

So go ahead and keep speculating and worrying about the length of my replies, because that is all anyone is doing at this point. There is no right answer, there is only history. Based on history, there is absolutely no reason for Patriots fans to be worried. The Raiders fan confirmed what we've been hearing all week, Minnesota players that have been calling into WEEI have been confirming what the Raiders fan just said. Not worried. At all. As a matter of fact, I've watched my team win THREE Super Bowls (you know, a reminder) in the past few years and this is clearly the best team of the group. Our offense got better, our defense got better and our main competition, the Colts, lost a lot on defense. We were a play or two from going to the Super Bowl last year. Why wouldn't a team that has clearly gotten better across the board be the overwhelming favorite to win it again on MAY 4TH? If it wasn't the Pats, it would be someone else...

And now we're up to May 4th, the fifth day of "RANDY WATCH 2007." FIVE DAYS WITHOUT DRAMA FROM MOSS! CELEBRATION EVERYONE!!

But yeah, this discussion is pretty much over, because there is really nothing left to say. You're going to continue being stubborn and I know I am right, and no one is going to tell me otherwise. So do with this what you will.
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Old 05-04-2007, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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I don't think that any patriots fan has ever come on here and said that nothing that our team does can ever go wrong or that nothing can go bad. as Jay said we are merely pointing towards their recent history, more specifically their recent success at keeping head cases under control, and if they can't they kick 'em out. If the randy moss experiment doesn't work out, they tried, and they only gave up a 4th rounder for him, plus he took a pay cut to do it. also, i think its worth noting that brady agreed to restructure his contract to get enough cap room to bring him in, which should show what the lockerroom thinks they can do to keep him in line.
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Old 05-04-2007, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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"Desperate" is quite clearly the wrong word to use. How about astute ? Any fan of any team would hope for the leadership of that team to tailor their moves to the condition of their team and the competion.

The Pats were a few points short of participating in their 4th superbowl of the decade. The right course of action was clearly to use financial resourses and roster spots on players who would provide upgraded contributions in the immediate future. The proper course of action WAS to find established veterans to raise the onfield output and bridge that gap.

Is this a different method of building a team for Pioli and Belichik ? Yes , but there is a timeline regarding the evolution of a teams growth. Each stage warrants a different approach to allocating resources. We all know how the Pats were built, it is the basis for this threads original question, so I need not regurgitate it here. Point being, the team has reached a new stage in that growth. The core of talent has matured, even begun to decline in some cases. The management team has recongnized it, and put forth its best effort to:

1. Add talent that is ready to contribute now to a championship run.
(the multitude of FA signings, Moss trade)
2. Do so in a fashion as to not mortgage the future.
(contracts for all 3 wr's are at below mkt or voidable after year 1)
3. Continue to stockpile resources for the future success of the team
( five day one draft picks for 2008).

Regarding the character issue:

I am in the minority as a Patriots fan but I hate the Moss move. I have posted many times since the trade how much I value the way they won the championships more than the championships themselves. Character is important to me and I am realistic enough to expect more seasons ending w/o the trophy than with one. I want to be proud of the team for many reasons beyond winning. I share a great deal of the time I devote to football with my family. I love the fact I have been able to show my kids some valuable life lessons through the actions of this team.

Having said that, nowhere has it been said by any member of any team that character is more important than winning. The NFL is a business, they are there to make money. Winning certainly helps. We all work somewhere and I am sure there are bad eggs on each and every payroll we represent ( hell, half of you are that guy judging by the way you rip each other on here).

The bottom line is the ass on your payroll is not getting the pub that Moss is. The whole character of the Patriots thing is a media and fan driven topic. Did BB stand up in an interview and say , "hey not only did we win it , but look at the group of boy scout / tree huggers we did it with !" NO. The stories have been written, the characterization applied and a label developed. It doesn't make it less true, but it is important to point out that the label was not one that was a goal of the team.

Do they want the good guy image, hell yes, that and winning are the proverbial homerun.

Do they strive to be the boyscout team ? As long as it doesn't interfere with winning / making $$$

I don't like the Moss move, it does burst my bubble regarding the thought process they use in fielding the product I support and consider "my team". I have come to realize that my bubble was a little niave, and that most of this blather you fans of other teams are passing off as intellect is merely envy.

Have a great off season and lets see what happens between the lines on 2008
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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I don't see how you can compare the two (pats / skins). The Patriots moves are based on a timline of a management team that has built a track record of success. They took a team from non-contention to multiple superbowl victories. They utilized a concept of sound drafting and mid to low level free agent signings focused on players who fit their scheme. They are now farther along that tilmeline and utilizing other methods of aquiring talent and targeting different types and tiers of players.

The Redskins have had the same philosophy since I was crapping my shorts in the early 70's. They disdain the draft and always bring in the veteran over the youngster. This over a LONG period of time and I am sure you can sight instances where they have great drafts, but please agree, this team has a track record of exporting, not importing draft picks.

Secondly the Redskins moves that you are trying to draw a comparison to are made by a team with no track record of winning. We are discussing recent history, the free agency period correct ? Daniel Snyder has modified the past Redskin philosophy of strong veteran teams and used his $$$ and the advent of FA to build what on paper have been some formidable teams.

Problem being football is not played on paper. You need a foundation. Some common bond , sense of team, what ever you care to label it. Bringing in 12-15 guys a year at big money to no existing structure and saying " now be a team" and " Oh, yeah, WIN !" doesn't work. THe pats illustrate that clearly enough. They took the existing core, added BB and his tactics, and it took hold, started to prosper, they added to it, modestly to see where it would go.

They unexpectedly won (insert the tuck comments here), added some more, hiccup - no playoffs.

Added some more modestly, built through the draft - hey it's a copycat league - copy yourself !! Won two more.

The Redskins have no track record of success - in regards to the present management team. They are desperate, they don't seem to be willing to say, we have holes, we need to set a plan in motion and build a core, create an identity, nuture it, supplement it and see where it takes us. Today's NFL is moving at light speed, Free agency and the almighty $$ keep it that way. It is a delicate recipe - success. Is the Patriot's run fortunate ? Hell yes, you have to be lucky to be good. Does every team start out with "a plan" , yeah.
Most plans don't seem to work out. The Redskins moves are desperate, and not well thought out. Randle El ? Archuleta ? Good players, in the right system, utilized properly. Square peg round hole moves - no cohesive gameplan = DESPERATE.

I don't recall sighting your views specifically, so I am not sure why you feel I thought you said the moves were stupid. Also I think I have stated I feel the team is less than perfect and do not view them as anything more than they are - the most successful team of the recent collection of seasons.
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Old 05-04-2007, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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I'd be more worried about Stallworth not being apussy.
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Is this a different method of building a team for Pioli and Belichik ? Yes , but there is a timeline regarding the evolution of a teams growth. Each stage warrants a different approach to allocating resources. We all know how the Pats were built, it is the basis for this threads original question, so I need not regurgitate it here. Point being, the team has reached a new stage in that growth. The core of talent has matured, even begun to decline in some cases. The management team has recongnized it, and put forth its best effort to:

1. Add talent that is ready to contribute now to a championship run.
(the multitude of FA signings, Moss trade)
2. Do so in a fashion as to not mortgage the future.
(contracts for all 3 wr's are at below mkt or voidable after year 1)
3. Continue to stockpile resources for the future success of the team
( five day one draft picks for 2008).
Out of everything you just said, what have they not done in the past? I'm definitely baiting you... but seriously, think about that...
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Randy Moss has not been great since 2003. It's a long reach back in time. If a great... anything, any other position, went someone where decidedly bad and was no longer good for 3 years, would people be excited about getting him back? IE Aaron Brooks used to be one heck of a QB. Over a three year period: 72-39 TD-INT and 3500+ yards every year. Then he's been not so hot over the past couple years. Why don't teams go after Aaron Brooks?

:)
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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because aaron brooks didnt give up on his team, he just couldnt produce. he doesnt have the same physical tools that he once had, which made him an above-average qb in this league. randy moss still has many of his physical tools, he is still that fast, can catch, and can run great routes. plus, brooks was never on the same level as moss in their respective primes
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:56 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Originally Posted by Non_Sequitur View Post
Randy Moss has not been great since 2003. It's a long reach back in time.
49 rec 767 yards 11 TD's (13 games)
60 rec 1005 yards 8 TD's (16.8 ypc, 4th best in his career)
42 rec 552 yards 3 TD's (13 games)

Yeah, HORRIBLE. Let me know how many other players scored 22 TD's over that same three year time frame.

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If a great... anything, any other position, went someone where decidedly bad and was no longer good for 3 years, would people be excited about getting him back? IE Aaron Brooks used to be one heck of a QB. Over a three year period: 72-39 TD-INT and 3500+ yards every year. Then he's been not so hot over the past couple years. Why don't teams go after Aaron Brooks?

:)
Because he's horrible, which is exactly why he got kicked to the curb in New Orleans, and is exactly why the Raiders were the worst team in the NFL last year, winning TWO game.

While we're at it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...nted_moss.html

I have a feeling you'd be singing a different tune if the shoe was on the other foot :)
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:33 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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49 rec 767 yards 11 TD's (13 games)
60 rec 1005 yards 8 TD's (16.8 ypc, 4th best in his career)
42 rec 552 yards 3 TD's (13 games)

Yeah, HORRIBLE. Let me know how many other players scored 22 TD's over that same three year time frame.

Becuase I said "HORRIBLE." Lol.



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Because he's horrible, which is exactly why he got kicked to the curb in New Orleans, and is exactly why the Raiders were the worst team in the NFL last year, winning TWO game.

While we're at it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...nted_moss.html

I have a feeling you'd be singing a different tune if the shoe was on the other foot :)
Not really, I wouldn't. Pennington has been saying he's wanted Moss on our team since 2002. There is a reason our front office has ignored his request. If Penny got his wish, I'd be saying "Well, hopefully it's only this year he's going to ruin." Unlike some people, I'm not a homer who defends everything my team does. ;)
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Old 05-04-2007, 02:38 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:35 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Becuase I said "HORRIBLE." Lol.
I'm not arguing semantics. We all know what you implied.

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Not really, I wouldn't. Pennington has been saying he's wanted Moss on our team since 2002. There is a reason our front office has ignored his request. If Penny got his wish, I'd be saying "Well, hopefully it's only this year he's going to ruin."
Hahaha. Yeah. Ok. Right. That's funny. Fortunately for you, Chad Pennington does that on his own...

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Unlike some people, I'm not a homer who defends everything my team does. ;)
No, you're much, much worse than that.
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Old 05-04-2007, 05:46 PM    (permalink
Non_Sequitur
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I'm not arguing semantics. We all know what you implied.
We all would know what I said, if people didn't misrepresent what I said.


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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Hahaha. Yeah. Ok. Right. That's funny. Fortunately for you, Chad Pennington does that on his own...
:)

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No, you're much, much worse than that.
:)
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Old 05-04-2007, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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I think Stallworth tweaked his hamstring while carrying Brady's Coach ManPurse
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