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Old 01-01-2007, 09:58 PM    (permalink
art vandelay
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Originally Posted by Jguarino24
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Originally Posted by art vandelay
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Originally Posted by Jguarino24
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Originally Posted by Rob S
As for Patrick Willis, I think he is our guy if Fletch goes. Great character guy and can rack up tackles. His coverage isnt great, but it is adequate.


The more and more I start reading and I keep seeing the name Partick Willis. He is real interesting to me. As much as I love Fletcher a young stud middle linebacker would really make me happy. I see alot of people saying that we need WR in the first round. I dont agree. We need to work on our MLB and DE.
DE is fine. With Schobel anchoring one side the rotation of Kelsay/Denney/Hargrove is actually a decent pass rush. DT, LB and CB are problems on defense. On offense - WR, TE, LG, RG, FB, even RB could all use upgrades/adjustments.

So saying CB I take it you dont think the bills should offer Clements a new deal?
We can offer him a deal, but it better not be Champ Bailey-type money. The said thing is though, someone will offer him Champ Bailey money and he will go there. Even if we do sign Clements, we still could use some CB depth. Kiwaukee Thomas hopefully wont be back and pysseddoph said that he wouldn't, which leaves Clements, McGee, Youboty, Greer and room for 1 more.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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As for Patrick Willis, I think he is our guy if Fletch goes. Great character guy and can rack up tackles. His coverage isnt great, but it is adequate.


The more and more I start reading and I keep seeing the name Partick Willis. He is real interesting to me. As much as I love Fletcher a young stud middle linebacker would really make me happy. I see alot of people saying that we need WR in the first round. I dont agree. We need to work on our MLB and DE.
DE is fine. With Schobel anchoring one side the rotation of Kelsay/Denney/Hargrove is actually a decent pass rush. DT, LB and CB are problems on defense. On offense - WR, TE, LG, RG, FB, even RB could all use upgrades/adjustments.

So saying CB I take it you dont think the bills should offer Clements a new deal?
We can offer him a deal, but it better not be Champ Bailey-type money. The said thing is though, someone will offer him Champ Bailey money and he will go there. Even if we do sign Clements, we still could use some CB depth. Kiwaukee Thomas hopefully wont be back and pysseddoph said that he wouldn't, which leaves Clements, McGee, Youboty, Greer and room for 1 more.
my god they will be disappointed Lets just hope its not us
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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I think that we will resign Nate regardless. Generally, Ralph resigns all of our big name players and isn't cheap there, but when it comes to the free agenct market he is a penny pinching bastard. He doesn't mind shelling out cash to guys already on the team and draftees usually. That is why I can see us resigning Nate to a hefty contract of like 7 years 50-54 Mil. I wouldn't be unhappy with that, really. Especially if he makes around 12 Mil a year early in the contract because we have a lot of cap space right now, so he could get lots of cash while we have room and then gets closer to around 4 Mil at the 6 or 7 year mark. If we paid him 12 Mil on a 7 year 54 Mil contract for the first 3 years in the final 4 years we would only be paying him an average of 4.5 Mil a year and I think that that deal could work out well for both sides. We have the cash now and don't have the talent yet, lock him up to a deal like that maybe. I bet we would have caved to whatever he wanted last year if we knew we would have 30 Mil in cap space.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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I think that we will resign Nate regardless. Generally, Ralph resigns all of our big name players and isn't cheap there, but when it comes to the free agenct market he is a penny pinching bastard. He doesn't mind shelling out cash to guys already on the team and draftees usually. That is why I can see us resigning Nate to a hefty contract of like 7 years 50-54 Mil. I wouldn't be unhappy with that, really. Especially if he makes around 12 Mil a year early in the contract because we have a lot of cap space right now, so he could get lots of cash while we have room and then gets closer to around 4 Mil at the 6 or 7 year mark. If we paid him 12 Mil on a 7 year 54 Mil contract for the first 3 years in the final 4 years we would only be paying him an average of 4.5 Mil a year and I think that that deal could work out well for both sides. We have the cash now and don't have the talent yet, lock him up to a deal like that maybe. I bet we would have caved to whatever he wanted last year if we knew we would have 30 Mil in cap space.
Nate is NOT worth $12 mil/year.
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Old 01-01-2007, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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To tell you the truth I don't think we are going to retain Nate Clements or London Fletcher. Both are going to ask for too much money and I think we'll be better served if we build through the draft.

Primary Needs
DT
LB
CB
OG

Secondary Needs
WR
RT
C
RB

Now we'll be picking 12th in the draft and we could be in a great position to address some of our needs.

Alan Branch, Patrick Willis, Marcus McCaulley, Justin Blalock, Dwayne Jarrett could all be available if things fall into place.

One guy that I really like that people have forgotten about is Michael Bush. He was a legitamte 1st rounder at the start of the season but that horrible injury in the first game really killed his stock. He could possibly be had in the 2nd or 3rd round and with McGahee and Rosenhaus already chirping about getting a new deal this is an option that Levy will have to look at.
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Old 01-02-2007, 12:27 AM    (permalink
art vandelay
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Originally Posted by Wide Right
To tell you the truth I don't think we are going to retain Nate Clements or London Fletcher. Both are going to ask for too much money and I think we'll be better served if we build through the draft.

Primary Needs
DT
LB
CB
OG

Secondary Needs
WR
RT
C
RB

Now we'll be picking 12th in the draft and we could be in a great position to address some of our needs.

Alan Branch, Patrick Willis, Marcus McCaulley, Justin Blalock, Dwayne Jarrett could all be available if things fall into place.

One guy that I really like that people have forgotten about is Michael Bush. He was a legitamte 1st rounder at the start of the season but that horrible injury in the first game really killed his stock. He could possibly be had in the 2nd or 3rd round and with McGahee and Rosenhaus already chirping about getting a new deal this is an option that Levy will have to look at.
I don't see C or RT as a need because we have a starter and then pretty good depth.

C - Fowler > Preston > Merz
RT - Pennington > Butler

I agree that we won't retain either but for different reasons. Clements because of the money and Fletcher because he simply doesn't want to be here anymore.

Jarrett will never become a Bill. First off, he will be taken by Minnesota before us. Second, he is a showoff and that isn't Marv's type of player. Third, we won't draft offense in Round 1.

Willis, Blalock and Branch would be great picks IMO, but I would go with Lawrence Timmons. I don't really like McCauley. As far as Bush goes, he might be granted another year of eligibility and I don't think we will pick another RB coming off a leg injury.
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Old 01-02-2007, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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am i the only one who wants greg olsen out of miami? i think this kid could be a stud, and i think we could get him in the 2nd ... possibly even the third. he would be the pass catching TE to royal's blocking. with losman coming around, i think olsen could be a real weapon. i think he has the potential to be mentioned with gates/gonzo/shockey/witten within two years if our offense keeps shaping up under JP.

oslen was cursed with bad QBs at miami and only started for one full year, but had he played more at miami with a good qb, i think he's be a lock first round pick, and the first TE off the board. since he has flown under the radar, i think he'd be a steal in the 2nd.

originally i wanted josh beekman in the 2nd, and he's the only one i'd be happy with over olsen, but if we can sign steinbach, i think olsen in the 2nd could pay off huge this year.
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Old 01-02-2007, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Alright, this may have swayed my view on the whole Fletcher re-signing deal

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...02/1045821.asp

Quote:
Originally Posted by London Fletcher
"I wasn't happy about having to play this year without having a contract extension," Fletcher said. "I was not happy at all. . . . I was not at all happy about having to be forced to play out my contract when my performance four years prior to that, three years prior to that, two years prior to that, should have merited an extension well before this."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch also
Fletcher clearly thinks that if the Bills were determined to keep him they would have done it before now - either last summer or during the season.

"You've extended other guys, why not extend me?" Fletcher said. The Bills got every bit of value out of the five-year, $17 million contract they gave Fletcher in 2002. He never has missed a game in his nine NFL seasons. He leads the NFL in tackles over the past seven years, according to NFL game day statistics. He has been a team leader on the field and in the locker room since the day he arrived in Buffalo.

He also will be 32 when next season rolls around. He surely will be signing his last major contract when he hits the free-agent market in March. He wants what he believes is fair market value and he wants to win.

"I've always put the team first, and I've always sacrificed myself and things that I've wanted from an individual standpoint and goal-wise to benefit the good of the team," Fletcher said. "But I told [the Bills' management] in this situation, this is the one time I have to be selfish. This is about me, and I have to be selfish with this decision and do what's best for myself and my family. . . . I have to make sure I secure the best future for us beyond the NFL. This is something I have to be selfish about."
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Old 01-02-2007, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperMcgee
Alright, this may have swayed my view on the whole Fletcher re-signing deal

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial...02/1045821.asp

Quote:
Originally Posted by London Fletcher
"I wasn't happy about having to play this year without having a contract extension," Fletcher said. "I was not happy at all. . . . I was not at all happy about having to be forced to play out my contract when my performance four years prior to that, three years prior to that, two years prior to that, should have merited an extension well before this."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch also
Fletcher clearly thinks that if the Bills were determined to keep him they would have done it before now - either last summer or during the season.

"You've extended other guys, why not extend me?" Fletcher said. The Bills got every bit of value out of the five-year, $17 million contract they gave Fletcher in 2002. He never has missed a game in his nine NFL seasons. He leads the NFL in tackles over the past seven years, according to NFL game day statistics. He has been a team leader on the field and in the locker room since the day he arrived in Buffalo.

He also will be 32 when next season rolls around. He surely will be signing his last major contract when he hits the free-agent market in March. He wants what he believes is fair market value and he wants to win.

"I've always put the team first, and I've always sacrificed myself and things that I've wanted from an individual standpoint and goal-wise to benefit the good of the team," Fletcher said. "But I told [the Bills' management] in this situation, this is the one time I have to be selfish. This is about me, and I have to be selfish with this decision and do what's best for myself and my family. . . . I have to make sure I secure the best future for us beyond the NFL. This is something I have to be selfish about."
I'm not suprised at all. How could you not see how mad he was in that press conference after the Titans game? I'm happy for London. Puff your chest out this year, you really made the Bills front office look like idiots for not extending you. I totally understand if he goes somewhere else in the offseason.
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Old 01-02-2007, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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Now I want fletcher gone more-so than ever. He's acting like a little baby. If you have a contract you're obligated to play through its extent, the team shouldn't have to give you a knew one. See ya Fletcher, and you can take your home-boy spikes with you.
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Old 01-02-2007, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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I'm as disappointed as anyone by TKO this year, but he wasn't exactly playing healthy, and we sure could use a veteran leader and his presence in the LB core if Fletcher leaves. He might not be the best for the scheme overall, but he can still be a great player and with possibly no MLB, a 6th round OLB that hasnt started a full season, and Crowell coming off a season ending injury, I'd say it'd be smart to keep Spikes around. Yeah, he was upset that Vincent was put on IR and probably will be that Fletcher will most likely be gone. But he's a gamer and I would expect at least somewhat of a rebound for him in a LB core that became suddenly suspect in recent times. We may never extend his contract again but we probably could use him for at least one more year. Then we will have a better idea of our soon to be young LB core and also some tutelage to a possible stud LB that we draft this year
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Old 01-02-2007, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SuperMcgee
I'm as disappointed as anyone by TKO this year, but he wasn't exactly playing healthy, and we sure could use a veteran leader and his presence in the LB core if Fletcher leaves. He might not be the best for the scheme overall, but he can still be a great player and with possibly no MLB, a 6th round OLB that hasnt started a full season, and Crowell coming off a season ending injury, I'd say it'd be smart to keep Spikes around. Yeah, he was upset that Vincent was put on IR and probably will be that Fletcher will most likely be gone. But he's a gamer and I would expect at least somewhat of a rebound for him in a LB core that became suddenly suspect in recent times. We may never extend his contract again but we probably could use him for at least one more year. Then we will have a better idea of our soon to be young LB core and also some tutelage to a possible stud LB that we draft this year
thats what it boils down to for me. Fact is that we cant lose Fletcher and Spikes, that is way too young, especially with young safeties as well. That leaves us inexperienced down the middle. One has to stay and fact is that Spikes has a contract and Fletch does not.....

But, a LB crew of:

Spikes- Patrick Willis- Angelo Crowell looks mighty nice to me.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMcgee
I'm as disappointed as anyone by TKO this year, but he wasn't exactly playing healthy, and we sure could use a veteran leader and his presence in the LB core if Fletcher leaves. He might not be the best for the scheme overall, but he can still be a great player and with possibly no MLB, a 6th round OLB that hasnt started a full season, and Crowell coming off a season ending injury, I'd say it'd be smart to keep Spikes around. Yeah, he was upset that Vincent was put on IR and probably will be that Fletcher will most likely be gone. But he's a gamer and I would expect at least somewhat of a rebound for him in a LB core that became suddenly suspect in recent times. We may never extend his contract again but we probably could use him for at least one more year. Then we will have a better idea of our soon to be young LB core and also some tutelage to a possible stud LB that we draft this year
thats what it boils down to for me. Fact is that we cant lose Fletcher and Spikes, that is way too young, especially with young safeties as well. That leaves us inexperienced down the middle. One has to stay and fact is that Spikes has a contract and Fletch does not.....

But, a LB crew of:

Spikes- Patrick Willis- Angelo Crowell looks mighty nice to me.
but how good is experience without ability?

consider fletcher gone. even so .... how many of his many tackles were 6, 7 and 8 yards past the line of scrimmage. fletcher doesnt have the range to cover the area in the middle of the bills defense. fletcher doesnt read and react, he guesses and sometimes hes right but more times hes wrong. i point to the green bay game, fletcher made a great read and jump on the pass he intercepted from bret BUT i felt it was luck, and green bay felt it was luck to because they went back to the very same pass with the very same personel and fletch was 2 steps off the play the next time around.

tko should be gone. his cap numbers do not equate to value play out of him and i dont buy his smoke screen team leadership role. when he came back in the ota's. he said he wasnt going to rush it. he was going to take his time and make sure everything was ok. in preseason ... he said he wasnt going to rush it he was going to take his time. the coaches said you were going to see tko in the preseason ... tko said he wasnt playing til the games counted when regular season started. guess what ... tko played in the last couple of preseason games. regular season starts and tko has a great play on tom brady in the opener then a couple plays later tko is lost for a couple of games due to his hammy ( hmmmm ... looks like somebody was out of shape .... should have either played more in preseason or not come back so soon, but thats my opinion ). tko blows a gasket to all that would hear how wrong the bills were for puting troy on IR after he blew his hammy. he even went as far as to say he should be put on ir too. he suggested the bills had other motives and they were wrong. funny thing is vincent was ok with the whole thing and actually stuck around to help bring the rookies along. tko comes back and is so much a liability to the pass defense he comes out on 3rd downs because the rookie ellison has been playing a better all around game.

now tko was never great in pass coverage when he was in great shape .. the fact that that is something the bills want and expect out of his position says alot when they feel better having a rookie come in during obvious passing situations. injury or not ... tko makes too much money to be a situational player in this defense as a backer.

in my opinion tko didnt know who he was playing for coach wise and front office wise. he tried to dictate things like it was the old front office and staff here, mularkey isnt here anymore. to me tko is just all bark no bite. talks a good game to the media and whoever will listen but actions speak louder than words .... before angelo went out spikes was a spectator during the most important downs of a series. did anybody see that ravens game where he went for almost 7 yards on a piggyback ride ... coudnt bring anderson down. now if the man cant even tackle anymore what good is he.

BUT in tko's defense ... he did after all was said and done after the ravens game .... he stated that he really wasnt 100% during the season and he expects to be better next year after he has had some time to rest. he said from his rehab to when the season started he really hasnt had anytime to rest his body. hmmmmm .... ota's .... he rode a bike, preseason .... he rode a bike .... 1st game of the regular season he got hurt again ... and rode a bike. tko ... ( now pay attention here ) said that he didnt get a chance to learn the defense as well as he should because he missed so much time leading up to the season. hmmmmm ....isnt that like saying its not his fault he missed so much time and then not remember he basically took a voluntary layoff. yeah i know he was coming off injury ... but its kinda funny the bills medical staff said he was cleared to do certain things .... tko ..... rode a bike.

i say let them both go. fletch because he deserves to get paid and tko because he comes across as bigger than the team. you just have to listen. hes a self promotion machine.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:07 PM    (permalink
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I agree with pysseddoph on this one. Let TKO go and let Fletch walk. Neither fit our defense that well anyway. Then maybe, just maybe, we will re-sign Clements with the cap room we save with TKO's salary. I still would be very iffy to give Clements a lot of money simply because of his lack of consistency and focus.

I still say Lawrence Timmons over Patrick Willis. Willis is a better fit in our defense than Fletcher is, but Timmons is the best fit because he is fluid in coverage. Plus, he's only 20 and after the combine he is going to shoot up draft boards due to his incredible measurables. But the difference between him and most "workout warriors" is that he lives up to his measurables and more.

Besides the LB issue, which most if not all agree that we will address in Round 1, we should look at the Willis McGahee and Lee Evans situations. Do you give McGahee a top RB salary? What do you do with him? And for Evans - get him extended ASAP. We CANNOT afford to lose him in FA when his contract expires.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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I agree with pysseddoph on this one. Let TKO go and let Fletch walk. Neither fit our defense that well anyway. Then maybe, just maybe, we will re-sign Clements with the cap room we save with TKO's salary. I still would be very iffy to give Clements a lot of money simply because of his lack of consistency and focus.

I still say Lawrence Timmons over Patrick Willis. Willis is a better fit in our defense than Fletcher is, but Timmons is the best fit because he is fluid in coverage. Plus, he's only 20 and after the combine he is going to shoot up draft boards due to his incredible measurables. But the difference between him and most "workout warriors" is that he lives up to his measurables and more.

Besides the LB issue, which most if not all agree that we will address in Round 1, we should look at the Willis McGahee and Lee Evans situations. Do you give McGahee a top RB salary? What do you do with him? And for Evans - get him extended ASAP. We CANNOT afford to lose him in FA when his contract expires.
I like Timmons, but i want to keep tko and think he can regain his form, so the need will be at MLB, therefore i go with willis. I really think we will regret letting TKO go if we do.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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also, does timmons have any character concerns?
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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I agree with pysseddoph on this one. Let TKO go and let Fletch walk. Neither fit our defense that well anyway. Then maybe, just maybe, we will re-sign Clements with the cap room we save with TKO's salary. I still would be very iffy to give Clements a lot of money simply because of his lack of consistency and focus.

I still say Lawrence Timmons over Patrick Willis. Willis is a better fit in our defense than Fletcher is, but Timmons is the best fit because he is fluid in coverage. Plus, he's only 20 and after the combine he is going to shoot up draft boards due to his incredible measurables. But the difference between him and most "workout warriors" is that he lives up to his measurables and more.

Besides the LB issue, which most if not all agree that we will address in Round 1, we should look at the Willis McGahee and Lee Evans situations. Do you give McGahee a top RB salary? What do you do with him? And for Evans - get him extended ASAP. We CANNOT afford to lose him in FA when his contract expires.
We wouldn't save that much by cutting TKO, maybe about $1 mil. And since we have around $29-31 mil in cap room, big deal.

As for Clemments, I think we should throw him the money he deserves. He is a little inconsistant, but he has big play ability.

I wouldn't give McGahee the big contract. I would offer him an extension at a mid-range level but nothing more. I think he'll be as good as gone. They need to wrap up Evans as soon as they can. He's worth a good deal of money.

As for the draft, they should draft a LB in Rd 1 and then a RB in the later rounds. Replacing McGahee is important. A-Train isn't the answer although he's good with Jauron. I don't like Posluskny and think he'll drop out of round one. Maybe a Lozenzo Booker on Day 2 could be a steal.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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as time goes by and more thoughts come into the equation. i say you dont give willis an extension .... if you ... you give him another year to prove his self. non exclusive tag him if need be. i say that with the thinking of the 2nd year and rookie backs that have come out and performed in the last 2 years.

guess there is alot of truth to todays rb's being a dime a dozen. 1 thing is for sure. dont allow this training at the u thing every season to go on without some cause in effect. i know ota's are voluntary but if willis expects a committment to him from the bills then its only fare the bills expect the same from him.

hell .... i was one of the ones that was all for willis over travis .... now, im thinking we may have made a hastey wrong choice.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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I really think that Willis McGahee deserves a new contract and chances are that he gets one this off season. 1, he sells more jerseys than any other Bill and that is always a bonus, Jauron is in love with the kid, he is only 25 and was injured late this year, missed some games and was 10 rushing yards short of a thousand. With solid guards he will be able to run up the middle better and we already know he can get it done on the outside.

TKO doesn't need to be released, yet at least. We aren't going to get rid of both him and Fletch in the same off season, that would be way to much change for a young defense to handle IMO. It is one or the other, and what it comes down to is one of them has a contract and one doesn't. TKO was hurt all year along with the fact that achilles injuries take longer than a year to recover from, he should be in top form by mid-season in 2007. If only Timmons stayed in school so we could potentially have him and Patrick Willis. Oh well. Personally I would rather have P-Willie in the middle of our defense. Timmons can be taught, but he won't excell in a cover-2 defense.

I don't see why you wouldn't want Nate back. I didn't say he was worth 12 Million and if you did some math you would realize that that contract adds up to an average of 7.71 Million a year. I could live with him making that kind of money. I was saying that while our defense is young and we have all this cap space we can get away with paying him more of his contract early in the contract so that we don't have to pay him as much when his play goes down after he hits 30. It isn't worth letting him go, we wouldn't be able to find a replacement unless we could sign Peanut Tillman who could be released by the Bears this off season and probably wouldn't mind playing under Jauron.
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Old 01-02-2007, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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also, does timmons have any character concerns?
Obviously I don't know the guy personally, but I have been reading up on him and it seems he is a quiet, to himself player off the field who likes to hang out with his teammates. Seems like a respectful guy as well. This article is pretty interesting and is worth a read:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/..._fsu_1225.html
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Old 01-03-2007, 07:46 AM    (permalink
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also, does timmons have any character concerns?
Obviously I don't know the guy personally, but I have been reading up on him and it seems he is a quiet, to himself player off the field who likes to hang out with his teammates. Seems like a respectful guy as well. This article is pretty interesting and is worth a read:

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/..._fsu_1225.html
Good read, thanks AV.

I wouldn't put it past Marv to "reach" for another guy who he likes. If he really is the cool guy in that article, I can see him being pretty high on the Bills Big Board.
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Old 01-03-2007, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Timmons sounds awesome. I just differ with you because I think TKO will be a good player next year. I still prefer willis, but I would be happy with a Timmons pick.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Timmons sounds awesome. I just differ with you because I think TKO will be a good player next year. I still prefer willis, but I would be happy with a Timmons pick.
I had read somewhere that Crowell could move to MLB...no source but I thought I heard that.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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Timmons sounds awesome. I just differ with you because I think TKO will be a good player next year. I still prefer willis, but I would be happy with a Timmons pick.
I had read somewhere that Crowell could move to MLB...no source but I thought I heard that.
He was drafted as a MLB, pretty sure he played it for the Cav's in college as well.
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Old 01-03-2007, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Timmons sounds awesome. I just differ with you because I think TKO will be a good player next year. I still prefer willis, but I would be happy with a Timmons pick.
I had read somewhere that Crowell could move to MLB...no source but I thought I heard that.
He was drafted as a MLB, pretty sure he played it for the Cav's in college as well.
i dont like shifting a young guy right after a great season, especially after a major injury and with him being so young.
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