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Old 01-02-2007, 09:04 PM    (permalink
Ravens1991
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Do you think that you guys will retire Williams #? I mean he died in one of the most tragic ways a person can die at so young.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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i can't imagine his number is retired, we've only retired 3 numbers ever, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got a ring of fame type memorial (clarification: i don't think he'll be IN the ring of fame, but his name and number will likely be memorialized in a similar way, imo).
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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My heart goes out to the Williams family, the Denver broncos organization for loosing a member of their family. I hope that in some way that the NFL will honor him and his family.
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Old 01-02-2007, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocco31fb
njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
i'm not going to call you an idiot, but you're 100% wrong. our offense was a joke for 10/11 games this season with plummer in. plummer wasn't really getting the job done. realistically, cutler did VERY well in bringing the team back two nights ago for a game tying touchdown in the 4th quarter, and had our offensive line and defense not been terrible, we likely win. the biggest problems this season were a) losing matt lepsis b) having no push from our defensive line whatsoever c) TERRIBLE defensive calls d) no consistency from our running game. none of those things were QB dependant. that said, jake was terrible all year. he's in the bottom five qbs in basically every metric that exists. he converted something like 24% of the third downs we passed on (i calculated this earlier in the season and can find it again if need be). jay bettered both of those numbers significantly.

that said, the reasons we aren't in the playoffs are pretty clear and have nothing to do with plummer sriding the bench:

1) our defensive line lacks talent in every way. warren is good occasionally, dumervil was decent as a situational rusher, but we have absolutely no one who can make plays on the line.

2) our running backs were consistently awful all season. tatum couldn't hang onto the ball late in games, mike had a hard time remembering to actually HIT holes.

3) our offensive line was disgusting. george foster should not be starting. erik pears had no business starting this season. i still think cooper carlisle sucks. foster's inability to block made it tough on our running backs and led to his benching. erik pears would've been benched if we'd had anyone else who could play the position.

4) larry coyer has terrible defensive schemes (whether you'd like to blame that on the d-line or not, running zones with everyone 8-10 yards off the LOS is not a good way to maintain a lead). it's almost funny how many teams were able to come back against us this season.

benching jake was a great move that should've come two weeks earlier.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by rocco31fb
njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
i'm not going to call you an idiot, but you're 100% wrong. our offense was a joke for 10/11 games this season with plummer in. plummer wasn't really getting the job done. realistically, cutler did VERY well in bringing the team back two nights ago for a game tying touchdown in the 4th quarter, and had our offensive line and defense not been terrible, we likely win. the biggest problems this season were a) losing matt lepsis b) having no push from our defensive line whatsoever c) TERRIBLE defensive calls d) no consistency from our running game. none of those things were QB dependant. that said, jake was terrible all year. he's in the bottom five qbs in basically every metric that exists. he converted something like 24% of the third downs we passed on (i calculated this earlier in the season and can find it again if need be). jay bettered both of those numbers significantly.

that said, the reasons we aren't in the playoffs are pretty clear and have nothing to do with plummer sriding the bench:

1) our defensive line lacks talent in every way. warren is good occasionally, dumervil was decent as a situational rusher, but we have absolutely no one who can make plays on the line.

2) our running backs were consistently awful all season. tatum couldn't hang onto the ball late in games, mike had a hard time remembering to actually HIT holes.

3) our offensive line was disgusting. george foster should not be starting. erik pears had no business starting this season. i still think cooper carlisle sucks. foster's inability to block made it tough on our running backs and led to his benching. erik pears would've been benched if we'd had anyone else who could play the position.

4) larry coyer has terrible defensive schemes (whether you'd like to blame that on the d-line or not, running zones with everyone 8-10 yards off the LOS is not a good way to maintain a lead). it's almost funny how many teams were able to come back against us this season.

benching jake was a great move that should've come two weeks earlier.
I think if Cutler had started a couple weeks earlier we may not be talking about this. I think throwing him into the part of the schedule that was the toughest without any game experience was the biggest mistake. Also I think the only Broncos games we got in Ontario were the ones where Cutler looked the worst. Like I said before, I thought a lot of his TD throws were just jump balls that he was lucky weren't picked off.

I still think if they left Plummer in they would have finished 10-6 and made the playoffs. If they started Cutler maybe two weeks earlier I could say the same thing. We could go back and forth on this, but hearing more about the deeper issues in Denver is helpful, so thanks.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocco31fb
njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
i'm not going to call you an idiot, but you're 100% wrong. our offense was a joke for 10/11 games this season with plummer in. plummer wasn't really getting the job done. realistically, cutler did VERY well in bringing the team back two nights ago for a game tying touchdown in the 4th quarter, and had our offensive line and defense not been terrible, we likely win. the biggest problems this season were a) losing matt lepsis b) having no push from our defensive line whatsoever c) TERRIBLE defensive calls d) no consistency from our running game. none of those things were QB dependant. that said, jake was terrible all year. he's in the bottom five qbs in basically every metric that exists. he converted something like 24% of the third downs we passed on (i calculated this earlier in the season and can find it again if need be). jay bettered both of those numbers significantly.

that said, the reasons we aren't in the playoffs are pretty clear and have nothing to do with plummer sriding the bench:

1) our defensive line lacks talent in every way. warren is good occasionally, dumervil was decent as a situational rusher, but we have absolutely no one who can make plays on the line.

2) our running backs were consistently awful all season. tatum couldn't hang onto the ball late in games, mike had a hard time remembering to actually HIT holes.

3) our offensive line was disgusting. george foster should not be starting. erik pears had no business starting this season. i still think cooper carlisle sucks. foster's inability to block made it tough on our running backs and led to his benching. erik pears would've been benched if we'd had anyone else who could play the position.

4) larry coyer has terrible defensive schemes (whether you'd like to blame that on the d-line or not, running zones with everyone 8-10 yards off the LOS is not a good way to maintain a lead). it's almost funny how many teams were able to come back against us this season.

benching jake was a great move that should've come two weeks earlier.
I agree with all of this. Another point I'd like to add to my one in the Rivers thread where I showed that Denver scored 7 more points per game with Cutler in. On defense, with Plummer in, they allowed 15 points per game. With Cutler in? 28 ppg against. Not alot of QBs would win with that many points being scored against them.
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by rocco31fb
njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
i'm not going to call you an idiot, but you're 100% wrong. our offense was a joke for 10/11 games this season with plummer in. plummer wasn't really getting the job done. realistically, cutler did VERY well in bringing the team back two nights ago for a game tying touchdown in the 4th quarter, and had our offensive line and defense not been terrible, we likely win. the biggest problems this season were a) losing matt lepsis b) having no push from our defensive line whatsoever c) TERRIBLE defensive calls d) no consistency from our running game. none of those things were QB dependant. that said, jake was terrible all year. he's in the bottom five qbs in basically every metric that exists. he converted something like 24% of the third downs we passed on (i calculated this earlier in the season and can find it again if need be). jay bettered both of those numbers significantly.

that said, the reasons we aren't in the playoffs are pretty clear and have nothing to do with plummer sriding the bench:

1) our defensive line lacks talent in every way. warren is good occasionally, dumervil was decent as a situational rusher, but we have absolutely no one who can make plays on the line.

2) our running backs were consistently awful all season. tatum couldn't hang onto the ball late in games, mike had a hard time remembering to actually HIT holes.

3) our offensive line was disgusting. george foster should not be starting. erik pears had no business starting this season. i still think cooper carlisle sucks. foster's inability to block made it tough on our running backs and led to his benching. erik pears would've been benched if we'd had anyone else who could play the position.

4) larry coyer has terrible defensive schemes (whether you'd like to blame that on the d-line or not, running zones with everyone 8-10 yards off the LOS is not a good way to maintain a lead). it's almost funny how many teams were able to come back against us this season.

benching jake was a great move that should've come two weeks earlier.
I agree with all of this. Another point I'd like to add to my one in the Rivers thread where I showed that Denver scored 7 more points per game with Cutler in. On defense, with Plummer in, they allowed 15 points per game. With Cutler in? 28 ppg against. Not alot of QBs would win with that many points being scored against them.
Does that number include the picks for six Cutler gave up?
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Old 01-02-2007, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by rocco31fb
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Originally Posted by ChrisCybulski
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Originally Posted by njx9
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Originally Posted by rocco31fb
njx9,

To explain why I thought benching Plummer was a bad move, I wasn't saying that Plummer was playing well. I agree with everyone that he wasn't playing well, but playing Cutler, especially at the part of the schedule they did, was the wrong move. Cutler may have improved the offensive stats, but he didn't get the job done when it mattered. Plummer was benched when the Broncos were 7-4. IMO he would have done a good enough job the rest of the season to put the Broncos in the playoffs. That is why I think the decision by Shanahan to start Cutler was wrong. You are free to call me an idiot, and yes I'm not a huge Bronco fan, but from an outsiders POV, that's what I think.
i'm not going to call you an idiot, but you're 100% wrong. our offense was a joke for 10/11 games this season with plummer in. plummer wasn't really getting the job done. realistically, cutler did VERY well in bringing the team back two nights ago for a game tying touchdown in the 4th quarter, and had our offensive line and defense not been terrible, we likely win. the biggest problems this season were a) losing matt lepsis b) having no push from our defensive line whatsoever c) TERRIBLE defensive calls d) no consistency from our running game. none of those things were QB dependant. that said, jake was terrible all year. he's in the bottom five qbs in basically every metric that exists. he converted something like 24% of the third downs we passed on (i calculated this earlier in the season and can find it again if need be). jay bettered both of those numbers significantly.

that said, the reasons we aren't in the playoffs are pretty clear and have nothing to do with plummer sriding the bench:

1) our defensive line lacks talent in every way. warren is good occasionally, dumervil was decent as a situational rusher, but we have absolutely no one who can make plays on the line.

2) our running backs were consistently awful all season. tatum couldn't hang onto the ball late in games, mike had a hard time remembering to actually HIT holes.

3) our offensive line was disgusting. george foster should not be starting. erik pears had no business starting this season. i still think cooper carlisle sucks. foster's inability to block made it tough on our running backs and led to his benching. erik pears would've been benched if we'd had anyone else who could play the position.

4) larry coyer has terrible defensive schemes (whether you'd like to blame that on the d-line or not, running zones with everyone 8-10 yards off the LOS is not a good way to maintain a lead). it's almost funny how many teams were able to come back against us this season.

benching jake was a great move that should've come two weeks earlier.
I agree with all of this. Another point I'd like to add to my one in the Rivers thread where I showed that Denver scored 7 more points per game with Cutler in. On defense, with Plummer in, they allowed 15 points per game. With Cutler in? 28 ppg against. Not alot of QBs would win with that many points being scored against them.
Does that number include the picks for six Cutler gave up?
Okay, so 25.2. Forgot about those. Did Plummer throw any pick-sixes? I can't remember.
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Old 01-03-2007, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Good to see a fellow Canadian on the Broncos thread.

With regards to Cutler, I think it is important to look at the Broncos big picture. Around here it is win the division, win the AFC and to the superbowl or bust. I think the arrogance of Shanahan realized that he would NEVER get to a superbowl with Plummer, and division and the AFC were at that stage out of the question. Jake regressed not progressed this season, and it was apparent to all. It was a very noticable step backwards in his game ability this year. Part of it was Kubiac's absence, part of it was Jakes fault, and part of it was Shanahan trying to see what Jake could do. Jake failed so Shanahan, knowing that he had raw talent decided to put Cutler in hoping to just make it to the playoffs to give Cutler the experience this year. Obviously, Shanahan wanted to see what Cutler could do in a real game and evaulate the talent that was apparent on the practice squad. He also wanted to push Plummer to see if he would respond and rise to the challenge. Plummer did the opposite he felt the pressure and forced the reads and throws, and then he told Shanahan where to go in front of the team. Again see arrogance of Shanahan comment.

So he put in Cutler and just hoped to see talent and make it to the playoffs for experience for Cutler to have him see that the speed gets turned up another notch in the playoffs. Shanahan also had to cut down the playbook for Plummer due to his arm limitations (deep outs and enough zip on the ball for cover two passes down the sidelines or before the safety). Bottom line is he now knows with Cutler that he has a raw talent that he can work with for future.

Economically, a team loses money by playing a road playoff game yet makes about 2-4 million (depending upon contracts for parking and concessions) for hosting a playoff game. He put Cutler in after speaking to Bowlen and they realized that they would not be hosting a playoff game (unless a miracle happened) so financially, it was the right decision at the right time. As far as talent goes, Shanahan has openly stated that this if the first time the entire playbook is available to him since Elway because all the other QB's had physical limitations (Griese could never throw a short out over 15 yards let alone a deep out).

Trust that makes some sense to you - just follow the money.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:23 AM    (permalink
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Do you think that you guys will retire Williams #? I mean he died in one of the most tragic ways a person can die at so young.
it crossed my mind, but i didnt want to say it cause i thought people would bombard me as a complete idiot for bringing it up
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:25 AM    (permalink
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would you rather have cutler questionably starting opening day next year, with no experience or would you rather have some experience under his belt?


personally, im glad we did even though we had a shot at the playoffs with plummer
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:38 AM    (permalink
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i still don't get why people think this was a playoff team with a worse qb under center. what on earth did jake do this season to make anyone think he could've led this team to ANY wins late in the season?
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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i still don't get why people think this was a playoff team with a worse qb under center. what on earth did jake do this season to make anyone think he could've led this team to ANY wins late in the season?
It's easy to point the finger at the QB, especially if he's a rookie. They just don't relaly know any better. However, I'm guessing that most of their accusations are based off of Cutler's two critical INTs for TDs against the Seahawks and 49ers. I'm bummed that we didn't make the playoffs tho. It would've been a great experience for Cutler even if he sucked it up. At least to have it under the belt woulda been good.

Anyway, one thing I find pretty humerous in retrospect is when Plummer came in for the SF game, some fans cheered a bit... then within his first few passes he throws a pick... I don't know why, but it's just pretty amusing.
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Old 01-03-2007, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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i saw it coming. the guy, for whatever reason this year, was completely unable to respond to any kind of pressure. too bad for him, but hopefully NFL teams are as backwards as NFLDC users and we can get something for him.
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Old 01-03-2007, 11:37 PM    (permalink
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i saw it coming. the guy, for whatever reason this year, was completely unable to respond to any kind of pressure. too bad for him, but hopefully NFL teams are as backwards as NFLDC users and we can get something for him.

I do not think I understand your comment regarding NFLDC users being backwards - care to elaborate?
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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i saw it coming. the guy, for whatever reason this year, was completely unable to respond to any kind of pressure. too bad for him, but hopefully NFL teams are as backwards as NFLDC users and we can get something for him.

I do not think I understand your comment regarding NFLDC users being backwards - care to elaborate?
People thinking Plummer is actually good, and we might have actually made the playoffs with him. IMO if Plummer stays in, Denver finishes 8-8, no playoffs.
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Old 01-04-2007, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M
i saw it coming. the guy, for whatever reason this year, was completely unable to respond to any kind of pressure. too bad for him, but hopefully NFL teams are as backwards as NFLDC users and we can get something for him.

I do not think I understand your comment regarding NFLDC users being backwards - care to elaborate?
People thinking Plummer is actually good, and we might have actually made the playoffs with him. IMO if Plummer stays in, Denver finishes 8-8, no playoffs.
Jake Plummer sucks. I saw a couple of games and he was horrid. Bad decision making. Cutler actually played better and promises to get better as time goes on. IMO plummer should go to houston and reunite with kubiak, he had his best year of his career under kubiak last year.
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Old 01-04-2007, 07:11 AM    (permalink
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I do not think I understand your comment regarding NFLDC users being backwards - care to elaborate?
people on this board seem to believe this team was much better with plummer in. this is demonstratably not true. thus, i hope that their respective team owners feel the same way (backwards) about jake plummer so that come April, we can trade him for something of much higher value.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Default Clarification

Thank you for clarification.

One can only hope that a 2rd round offer for Plummer will be available. I am not optomistic however that he will go for that high. Personlly, I would take LenDale White for Plummer in a heartbeat. I believe that in our system he would be a very effective runner.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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i wouldn't mind that, although realistically, i'd take a 4th or 5th for him just to get him off salary (5.3, 4.8 and 5.8 million over the next three seasons).
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Realistically, you will not get more than a 4th for him. Kubiac might give us a 6th is what I am hearing.
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Old 01-04-2007, 07:38 PM    (permalink
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Realistically, you will not get more than a 4th for him. Kubiac might give us a 6th is what I am hearing.
Hm. I wonder... how demoralizing is it for a player to be in trade talks for a sixth or seventh rounder? Or "possibly" a fourth rounder but not "worth" a 3rd rounder lol.

Man... I Don't know what is more important to address right away in the draft or FA... OLine or DLine...
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Old 01-04-2007, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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i have to believe it's the d-line. the o-line can probably survive another year (i'm assuming lepsis will be able to play next year) while it develops a younger guy. the d-line needs talent three years ago.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:17 PM    (permalink
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Default draft

Now we are finally talking about the draft great!

I want to know what the analytical minds out there think we will do in the first 2 rounds? People let your voices be heard. I was greatly impressed with the braintrust that picked last year. I think the pretrading moves, and moves during the draft were very skilled. Personally I think it was Shanahans best draft and, as it played out on the field, it looked like it was he best draft since he has been in Denver. How do you follow that up - I want you to speculate.

Tell me you best draft guess, and of course what will do with Washington or Atlanta this year as every year we seem to get involved somehow with them? Take some time and impress us with your insights.

For examply we trade Plummer Tatum and Lynch in a package deal to get a second round draft pick this year or Sean Taylor (the nickle headed all world safety). Tell me about why you are thinking that trade of Tatum Bell and Mike Bell for LenDale White would make sense and could happen (I know I am very high on this kid).

Personally, I think this could be the year Shanahan finally takes a RB in the first round (if only Bush would drop that far to us) and a DE in round 2 (as I think we are picking up a FA O-lineman with the money we have from trading / releasing Plummer.

Tell us your thoughts?
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