Denver Broncos Discussion

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by njx9

i really agree with both of you. but, from where i sit, tebow is what he is. it's like watching vince young as a passer (except that vince young was an idiot). there are just some habits that you can't un-teach. tebow's throwing motion, and consequently, his inability to reliably throw the football is one of those things, imo.

We'll have to see if they'll give him a full offseason to prove otherwise. I'm not sold on his job security at this point. As long as he was clutch in crunch time, it would be hard to go against him, but the last few weeks have been ugly and he needs to bear a lot of the blame.

as such, if we're going to do more than throw in the towel next year, we'll likely be running the exact same system. yes, probably with a few changes, but i think it'll be the same base.

With a full offseason there would be no excuse to continue the patchwork mess they've "installed" (and I use that term loosely). Despite all the talk about the spread/option, they keep sliding back towards that run&playpass conservative **** that Fox likes.

so, that said, it's just a crap year to do anything at the position.

That was pretty the case as soon as we started winning some games. However, a number of the teams who cleaned house have legit QBs but we all know new leadership tends to want to put their stamp on things. Could result in a wierd game of musical chairs at the QB spot.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Diehard

We'll have to see if they'll give him a full offseason to prove otherwise. I'm not sold on his job security at this point. As long as he was clutch in crunch time, it would be hard to go against him, but the last few weeks have been ugly and he needs to bear a lot of the blame.

i don't disagree from a purely football standpoint. i think any real fans know that he's been... horrific lately. but i think elway and co. also have to take into account the mouth-breathing-idiot segment of the population, who still think tebow walks on water and would near riot if he weren't the opening day starter. meh. clearly my personal choice would be to cut him on monday morning and move on, but that's probably not really feasible.

the ony plus i can think of is that he's relatively cheap as a late first rounder. we're not talking about eating a jamarcus contract, in which case i'd be 100% certain he was our 16-game qb next year.

With a full offseason there would be no excuse to continue the patchwork mess they've "installed" (and I use that term loosely). Despite all the talk about the spread/option, they keep sliding back towards that run&playpass conservative **** that Fox likes.

i think they'll stick with the strong spread/read option look as long as we have to stick with tebow. i wouldn't be shocked, i guess, if fox kept a real playbook in the closet, but as messy as implementing this option stuff was, i can't imagine it would be easy to bring in another random offense in the middle of the season.

That was pretty the case as soon as we started winning some games. However, a number of the teams who cleaned house have legit QBs but we all know new leadership tends to want to put their stamp on things. Could result in a wierd game of musical chairs at the QB spot.

yeah, i just don't see a lot of options... like, landry jones? can't see elway sinking that low, no matter how little he likes tebow. tannehill's a project and we don't really need yet another one at qb. if i were in his shoes, i'd just set up to let tebow fail next year while building up the rest of the team, but i'd be doing everything i could to get into a position to bring in 'my guy' out of next year's rookie class.

or i'd be trying to figure out how badly i had to sell out the future to get luck.

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

Vince Young isn't good throwing the ball, but he's way better than Tebow. If I look at the statline and see Tebow completed 50% of his passes, I say "Wow, Tebow had a pretty good game." That's how bad he is.

sure, but young was always going to be limited by that terrible motion. he started to change it, but every time he was under duress, he just reverted back to the same crap. it was like watching tebow last year (when he was still pretending that he'd worked on his motion).

[DBNYDP]

Ideally I would want to be done with the whole drama regarding Tebow and just get rid of him. But that being said I'm also optimistic and want to make sure he is a bust before I would get rid of him. I want to see what happens with a full offseason and some better playcalling (I wouldn't blame the playcalling for Tebow's failure but I find it hard to believe it is doing him any favors establish any rhythm or momentum for him).

But more importantly there really isn't any viable option to replace him with. There are two franchise QBs in the draft and I think it would take the farm which I'm not really willing to part with to get either one (even though if it does happen I'll be happy we took care of the QB position). But besides those two I think we'd be settling for a subpar or average QB which isn't what I want to do (I rather just wait it out and if Tebow is really that bad we'll be in the position to draft a great QB the next year) as the draft class with QB looks like **** to me after Griffin. I just don't think signing free agents is a good option for the QB position as rarely are there any quality guys in the FA market. Some fans are getting infatuated with Flynn which just has bad idea written all over him. He's going to get paid a lot, and I doubt he comes close to matching his salary with his play. If he plays well we probably won't be in a position to draft a good QB next year and if he plays bad then we probably will be in a position to draft a guy next year.

[Diehard]

yeah, i just don't see a lot of options... like, landry jones? can't see elway sinking that low, no matter how little he likes tebow. tannehill's a project and we don't really need yet another one at qb.

I'm thinking more about a bunch of trades involving QB's already in the league, though of course the draft would have some bearing on that as well. Something is going to happen with Manning, and that will likely have cascading effects. Sam Bradford is an interesting one - he, like Tebow, could find himself with few supporters after the leadership change and the Rams hold a top pick.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. I think a lot will depend on whether we can move Tebow for a non-trivial amount of ammunition.

[njx9]

i'd like bradford in the fox offense... no need to take big risks, decent pieces in place to support him... i dunno, i'm warming more to the idea of selling out a bit for a qb. the only major difference between any of the afc west teams is having an elite qb (the only reason san diego is relevant) and coaching (why we've been completely irrelevant). i think we have enough pieces in place now (and young pieces) to be a serious team every single year with a proper qb (i hate you mcdaniels), and i wouldn't be opposed to making a move, presuming we can effectively 'move on' from tebow prior to the start of the season. if he's still here, i'd rather wait another year.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Hopefully if Tebow stinks it up this weekend(which we can only assume he will), people will see that the last 4 awful games are far more indicative of who Tebow is than the random 6 game winning streak he pulled from his ass.

[jCut]

Brandon Weeden could be a nice pickup in the 2nd round. The guy is much older than the average prospect, but I think the added maturity could work to his advantage. It seems like he doesn't have any obvious holes in his game, but his age will make him drop a little bit.

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by njx9

i'd like bradford in the fox offense... no need to take big risks, decent pieces in place to support him... i dunno, i'm warming more to the idea of selling out a bit for a qb. the only major difference between any of the afc west teams is having an elite qb (the only reason san diego is relevant) and coaching (why we've been completely irrelevant). i think we have enough pieces in place now (and young pieces) to be a serious team every single year with a proper qb (i hate you mcdaniels), and i wouldn't be opposed to making a move, presuming we can effectively 'move on' from tebow prior to the start of the season. if he's still here, i'd rather wait another year.

You are probably right, and maybe I am just too old, but I really really want a good defense again. Getting lit up by opposing offenses infuriates me more than not scoring. Right now our defense is almost okay. I would not be happy if we sold out the next few years of drafting by taking a QB (and in the process watched the defense go backwards).

[Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Timbathia

You are probably right, and maybe I am just too old, but I really really want a good defense again. Getting lit up by opposing offenses infuriates me more than not scoring. Right now our defense is almost okay. I would not be happy if we sold out the next few years of drafting by taking a QB (and in the process watched the defense go backwards).

But as all of these experts are now saying... the game has evolved... guys are now dropping back 50 times a game, and it is not out of the ordinary.

The best defense is a good offense. Not that I buy into that word for word, but it is partly true. Having an elite offense certainly aids the defense more than it hurts it.

While it would be wonderful to get the orange crush defense back, let's be real: that defense was first and foremost a run stopping defense, in fact, it was very weak against the pass, at least at certain points.

The game has changed; that defense wouldn't do much today. Invest in some top flight pass rushers like we have, or get an elite quarterback. That is the only way you stand a chance anymore in this league.

Question: Has there ever been a historically famous that was super-elite against the pass? Or have all the memorable defenses (76 steelers, 85 bears, 00 ravens) been run first stoppers?

[njx9]

Originally Posted by jCut

Brandon Weeden could be a nice pickup in the 2nd round. The guy is much older than the average prospect, but I think the added maturity could work to his advantage. It seems like he doesn't have any obvious holes in his game, but his age will make him drop a little bit.

in the second? that seems like a massive over-rating of his draft slot. he'd be a good pick-up in the 6th.

[DBNYDP]

Not going to lie being on break and all has given me a lot of time to think and trading the farm for Luck seems better and better every time I think about it. I mean I think we have talented if inconsistent youth on this thing, and the holes that we do have can definitely be filled with guys who aren't first rounders these next few years. A franchise QB can carry a team with a lot more holes than I think we have, and I have a lot of confidence in Luck's ability. Obviously though if he doesn't work out than we are screwed but I mean if it pays off we're good for the next 10-15 years...that's a lot of reward...

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by DBNYDP

Not going to lie being on break and all has given me a lot of time to think and trading the farm for Luck seems better and better every time I think about it. I mean I think we have talented if inconsistent youth on this thing, and the holes that we do have can definitely be filled with guys who aren't first rounders these next few years. A franchise QB can carry a team with a lot more holes than I think we have, and I have a lot of confidence in Luck's ability. Obviously though if he doesn't work out than we are screwed but I mean if it pays off we're good for the next 10-15 years...that's a lot of reward...

That whole "we're screwed" thing is a big, big downside...

Selling the farm for a player makes sense if all the other pieces are in place for a championship run. We aren't in that position. We have question marks all over the place due to the amount of youth on the team. From what I've seen so far, I'm certainly not comfortable with the succession plan for all the old guys we have in our secondary. Another pass rusher would help greatly. On offense we've got QB, RB, TE and at least one OL spot to upgrade... and that's assuming these receivers pan out which is not a given as their play has been very inconsistent.

We don't need to sell the farm to be competitive in the AFC West. Let's keep building on strength (defense, running game). If we are patient, an opportunity will arise to address the QB position at a reasonable cost.

[njx9]

Originally Posted by Diehard

Let's keep building on strength (defense, running game). If we are patient, an opportunity will arise to address the QB position at a reasonable cost.

just to argue both sides (all three sides?), i think this is a good point, albeit made indirectly. john fox has historically never been a big passer. if we can solidify a top running game and pick up a 'good' game manager, i think we'd be ok on offense.

for a truly weird analogy, i think fox's offense would value qbs like most people value wine. there's a certain minimum standard you need to not be drinking the virtual equivalent of md 20/20, but at the same time, at a certain point you'd be paying astronomically more for next to no true benefit. why spend more for the $200 bottle if you can't actually taste the difference between it and the $8 bottle?

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by njx9

for a truly weird analogy, i think fox's offense would value qbs like most people value wine. there's a certain minimum standard you need to not be drinking the virtual equivalent of md 20/20, but at the same time, at a certain point you'd be paying astronomically more for next to no true benefit. why spend more for the $200 bottle if you can't actually taste the difference between it and the $8 bottle?

Protect the ball, execute the intermediate/deep playaction passes and manage the offense. If the $8 bottle does the trick, why spend more? Mind you, I think even Fox would be open to the $200 bottle *if* it was at a huge discount. But value-for-money is definitely a factor here.

Hm, the more I think about it the more Brandon Weeden seems like a possibility. Mature, steady in the pocket, can hit receivers downfield and probably comes at a price that wouldn't make you feel bad about replacing him a few years down the road.

[jCut]

Originally Posted by njx9

in the second? that seems like a massive over-rating of his draft slot. he'd be a good pick-up in the 6th.

I've heard he will be a high 2nd round pick, I guess we'll see once the draft process begins. But, aside from RG3 and Luck, I think he's the best QB available.

As far as Luck is concerned, the guy is as sure of a thing as I've ever seen. I would be all in to get him.

[njx9]

i guess anything's possible with the qb picks we've seen lately... but bleh, that's a massively high price to pay for a guy who's guaranteed to have no longevity.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Yeah I wouldn't mind a 28(?) year old in the later rounds, but as a second rounder, it's a waste IMO. Even if he pans out, he's going to take a few years to understand playing in the pros. So let's say he's 30 when he figures it all out and starts balling. That gives him 3-5 years as a top echelon player and that's generous. For most positions, that's a good run, but from a QB you want at least a decade.

[DBNYDP]

I like Luck a lot as a prospect and I think his floor is going to be a Matt Ryan type player. So I mean there isn't that huge of a risk when it comes to him for me, but I completely understand the skepticism as he could definitely bust which will screw us long term. It is one of the reasons I'm so conflicted on trading up there. Not only would we dominate the AFC West yearly but I think great QB play would put as a consistent force in the AFC.

I agree with NJX regarding the value of a QB in Fox's system. But at some point he is going to have to understand that you can't win in this league without a solid passing attack. We've seen that ball control/great rushing attacks cannot win against elite QBs anymore. The fact that these guys can fairly easily lead 1 or 2 minute drives with ease means that you need to have a guy that you can count on to lead your team right back via passing the ball. I think we've seen even with a very sketchy QB, Fox is definitely starting to change his game a bit. A couple years ago Tebow would have passed the ball like 10 times a game, and while there isn't a huge change in terms of attempts I think we are definitely see this Fox offense trying to pass more. At the very least I think Elway/Xanders really value a good QB and understand you need to be able to pass as well as run the ball, I think both are going to eventually try to make passing a much bigger part of the offense.

Brandon Weeden is a weird option for me. I think if you told me he was 24 or younger I'd be balls deep in love. But coming from that system I definitely see him having rookie growing pains, and I'm not sure how long that is going to last. I think he'll put it together but will that be halfway through next year or 3 years down the road which really could happen. Then you are left with a 31 year old QB going into his breakout year? While QBs can go into their late 30's, I just see a lot of risk there even for the second round.

[Diehard]

Originally Posted by MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)

Yeah I wouldn't mind a 28(?) year old in the later rounds, but as a second rounder, it's a waste IMO.

I don't like the 2nd round for QB's in general. If you think the guy can start immediately, then take him in round 1. Developmental guys / question marks should be punted the mid-late rounds.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't like getting a deal - if you had a first round grade on the guy and he's still kicking around in round 2, then by all means, have at it.

[Diehard]

Interesting bit from DP:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/...t-round/11633/

All the other quarterbacks available in the upcoming draft? They’re reaches at No. 21. The Broncos like Texas A&M’s Ryan Tannehill, Oklahoma State’s Brandon Weeden, Arizona’s Nick Foles, Arizona State’s Brock Osweiler and Arkansas’ Tyler Wilson (if he bypasses his redshirt senior season) but more as second-round picks. They love Boise State’s Kellen Moore somewhere in the middle rounds.

But first round? The Broncos will take a cornerback, or a defensive tackle, or a linebacker or a running back.

I'd take the accuracy of this with a rather large grain of salt, but it's still food for thought.

[njx9]

ew, kellen moore? why, john, why?

[DBNYDP]

It seemed like the Post was reaching they literally just named every QB after Griffin. Then they just labeled a bunch of "need" positions.

[njx9]

meh, it's the post. their sports writing died when schefter left.

[Hines]

Good game, all. You clearly deserved it. Now do me a favor and knock out the Patriots.

[Timbathia]

Originally Posted by Hines

Good game, all. You clearly deserved it. Now do me a favor and knock out the Patriots.

Thanks man. Too excited still to type anything meaningful. I like being in the playoffs again.