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Old 03-31-2008, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Only if the Jets draft a corner in the first AND he doesn't work out. And even then, thats a bit of a stretch because while Justin Miller hasn't been all that was advertized, he isn't completely useless a la Charles Rogers. And Miller was a second round pick, not a second overall pick.
Miller was a 2nd round pick the year they didnt have a 1st (him & nugent went in rd 2). My point is year after year we invest either a high pick or sign a marque player in free agency and we still havent fixed the issue. Just like the Lions drafting all those receivers with their top picks, as well as signing guys like Hakim & Scroeder to big deals.

I am not sold on Pace yet, so IMO we need a pass rusher and a Wide Receiver with size more than we need a CB.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Miller was a 2nd round pick the year they didnt have a 1st (him & nugent went in rd 2). My point is year after year we invest either a high pick or sign a marque player in free agency and we still havent fixed the issue. Just like the Lions drafting all those receivers with their top picks, as well as signing guys like Hakim & Scroeder to big deals.

I am not sold on Pace yet, so IMO we need a pass rusher and a Wide Receiver with size more than we need a CB.
There's a couple of things I'd keep in mind.

1. We really haven't invested a ton of FA money into corners, and you need more talented corners especially to match up with teams that spread the field than you need talented wideouts. Miller was taken in '05, Revis in '07, and if we take somebody in the first two rounds this year that will be three guys taken in the first two rounds in four years. Not that bad. The Bengals went corner in back to back first rounds, and they STILL need more depth. You can't have enough corners, especially when you're playing teams like the Pats twice a year.

2. This was in a scenario where Gholston is gone already and we can't trade down. Are you going to reach for a pass rusher or a big wideout at 6? What position would you rather go after there?

3. You and I aren't running the team. Obviously Tangini like Pace's potential as a pass rusher (a coverage and run stuffing LB isn't worth 42 million over 6 years) so whether you're sold or not it may not be a priority for us, we don't know. I'm sure we'll get a LB in some way this year, but just because you think it's a need because you're not sold on Pace doesn't mean the FO is going to feel the same way. I'm not sold on Pace either (I have no idea whether or not he's going to pan out I haven't seen much of him and I don't have access to the same kind of stuff they do) but realistically neither you nor I knows that the FO feels we need a pass rusher and it's probably a coin flip as to whether or not they do.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Since it doesnt look like your division is scary with WRs anymore, a CB in the first isnt really needed IMO. And since there really isnt a sure DE in the 3-4 worth #6, i think a trade down would make alot of sense. Although im not a real big fan of Merling, I think that he would be a good pick in the mid 1st for you. I know that its really hard to say that Dallas would do this, but trading two firsts, and a future 1st would be good for #6.

#22 Phillip Merling
#28 Branden Albert
#36 James Hardy
#68 Ahytba Rubin
#98 Jack Ikegwuonu

Its very possible, would be a nice class for you guys, and If the DRob deal goes through with Denver you will have a nice corner (at least nickel).
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Also with all the FA spending you have been doing, trading down and paying less guaranteed and most likely overall less money for two 1st rounders as oppose to investing the franchise in one.
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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Any Jet fan care to weigh in on how Dewayne Robertson would function playing the nose is a 4-3?
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Ballin - Obviously trading down is ideal but I don't see anybody that's going to be willing to trade up to 6 to be honest. Plus playing in the AFC and trying to compete against the Pats I think it's pretty important. We really don't have a solid starter right now it's not our biggest need but not a waste of a pick either.

PMD - I don't think he'd be bad as a 4-3 nose, but it's not really ideal. D-Rob is at his best when he's able to shoot gaps and make plays up the field, he's really a 3-tech in an ideal scenario. That said, given what a team would be giving up for him he's probably worth the investment. He certainly hasn't been what we envisioned but he should be relatively solid. Beyond that, after moving from the 3-4 NT to the 4-3 he should have an alright idea of what he needs to do with a little less responsibility. Having another DT next to him should really hlep. I'm no expert obviously but he should be pretty good IMO, definitely worth a reasonable contract after we cut him or the next to nothing you'd have to give up to get him. Somewhere around above average as a starter. Again I'm no expert and you may want to get another person's input, but that's my take.
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Ballin - Obviously trading down is ideal but I don't see anybody that's going to be willing to trade up to 6 to be honest. Plus playing in the AFC and trying to compete against the Pats I think it's pretty important. We really don't have a solid starter right now it's not our biggest need but not a waste of a pick either.

PMD - I don't think he'd be bad as a 4-3 nose, but it's not really ideal. D-Rob is at his best when he's able to shoot gaps and make plays up the field, he's really a 3-tech in an ideal scenario. That said, given what a team would be giving up for him he's probably worth the investment. He certainly hasn't been what we envisioned but he should be relatively solid. Beyond that, after moving from the 3-4 NT to the 4-3 he should have an alright idea of what he needs to do with a little less responsibility. Having another DT next to him should really hlep. I'm no expert obviously but he should be pretty good IMO, definitely worth a reasonable contract after we cut him or the next to nothing you'd have to give up to get him. Somewhere around above average as a starter. Again I'm no expert and you may want to get another person's input, but that's my take.
well i was also thinking about this draft as if Dominique Foxworth was on the team, because it makes alot of sense.

you have to admit that that would be a sick draft though
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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There's a couple of things I'd keep in mind.

1. We really haven't invested a ton of FA money into corners,

2. This was in a scenario where Gholston is gone already and we can't trade down. Are you going to reach for a pass rusher or a big wideout at 6? What position would you rather go after there?
1. We havent spent a kings ransom on corners, but Dyson and Law were one of our marque pickups both years they were signed.

2. That is a true nightmare scenario (both Longs, McFadden, Gholston & Ryan gone) and I certainly do not want to reach there, but I do think someone would trade up for Dorsey at that point. Otherwise I have the same feelings about the OL as many of you do for corners, cant have too much..I would take Otah or Clady there thereby moving Woody to RG and Moore to the bench or traded for a day 2 pick...

just my thoughts...
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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I heard the same exact thing. About the second round. Part of me is wanting Miami not to draft Chris Long and the other part is me wanting us to trade up so ill see.

I wouldn't mind Curtis Lofton, James Hardy, Joe Flacco, or a corner dropping in the second. So Im liking this as a possible draft.

1. Chris Long :)
2. James Hardy
3. Cason
cason round 4? no shot...hes being rated as a 1st or 2nd roudner

but i agree about round 2, even though im not high on drafting a QB i wouldnt e too upset if it were round 2 if it were brohm henne or flacco
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Since it doesnt look like your division is scary with WRs anymore, a CB in the first isnt really needed IMO. And since there really isnt a sure DE in the 3-4 worth #6, i think a trade down would make alot of sense. Although im not a real big fan of Merling, I think that he would be a good pick in the mid 1st for you. I know that its really hard to say that Dallas would do this, but trading two firsts, and a future 1st would be good for #6.

#22 Phillip Merling
#28 Branden Albert
#36 James Hardy
#68 Ahytba Rubin
#98 Jack Ikegwuonu

Its very possible, would be a nice class for you guys, and If the DRob deal goes through with Denver you will have a nice corner (at least nickel).
a trade down would definitely make sense, and i think almost every jet fan here is advocating that if a few prospects arent there (mainly long, gholston, mcfadden), but the problem is finding a team to trade up and package enough picks/players to get that high

as for the draft, i think merling would be a solid pick, idk if he would be my first choice, depends on who is left there but i would definitley be happy with that...i think we would go somewhere other than OL with this pick, even though alberts versatility would be huge for us, but i think a pass rusher like groves or avril would be better here or maybe make sure we get a RZ threat WR isntread of risking one not being there at 36, or maybe even a CB if value is there, but i guess if it were albert, i couldnt be too upset with it...hardy i would love...we dont have a round 3...round 4, i think ike would be an interesting pick considering he was 2nd round value before ht einjury, and i owuld be happy with that pick

EDIT: also, for foxworth, i dont think were gonna get foxworth in a trade for DROB...if we were to get anything for him, it would be a low pick
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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1. We havent spent a kings ransom on corners, but Dyson and Law were one of our marque pickups both years they were signed.

2. That is a true nightmare scenario (both Longs, McFadden, Gholston & Ryan gone) and I certainly do not want to reach there, but I do think someone would trade up for Dorsey at that point. Otherwise I have the same feelings about the OL as many of you do for corners, cant have too much..I would take Otah or Clady there thereby moving Woody to RG and Moore to the bench or traded for a day 2 pick...

just my thoughts...
theres also a chance that dorsey isnt left for someone to trade up for...i could definitely see somethign like this

1. c long
2. gholston
3. ryan/dorsey
4. mcfadden
5. dorsey/ryan (whoever not at 3)
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Old 03-31-2008, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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Any Jet fan care to weigh in on how Dewayne Robertson would function playing the nose is a 4-3?
Probably not a good idea. He has experience playing NT, but when Herm ran the show, Robertson was the undertackle. Putting him in the role of nose tackle is not proper utilization of his talents. He will struggle as a nose tackle. Even in the 4-3.
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Old 04-01-2008, 06:51 AM    (permalink
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theres also a chance that dorsey isnt left for someone to trade up for...i could definitely see somethign like this

1. c long
2. gholston
3. ryan/dorsey
4. mcfadden
5. dorsey/ryan (whoever not at 3)

Then that would leave Jake Long for us. Not ideal but certainly not a total loss as many are projecting him to be more of a RT anyway which we need. To me, there are only 5 possible players that I would want with the 6th pick (I am leaving Dorsey & Ellis out because of the Jenkins deal) if each of those 5 go before us (C. Long, Gholston, J. Long, McFadden, M. Ryan) then we should try to trade down even if we don't get true value.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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theres also a chance that dorsey isnt left for someone to trade up for...i could definitely see somethign like this

1. c long
2. gholston
3. ryan/dorsey
4. mcfadden
5. dorsey/ryan (whoever not at 3)
But if Dorsey is not there, Sedrick Ellis will be.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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But if Dorsey is not there, Sedrick Ellis will be.
Agreed, and I think that's almost a scenario where teams would be more desperate to trade up than with both Dorsey and Ellis on the board. If you have both Dorsey and Ellis available then if you're New Orleans or Cincinnati maybe one falls to you, even Denver has a shot if everyone stands pat. But if just one is available then you probably need to move up to get him. You'd figure the Bengals would be willing to move up as well, after getting 4 comp picks including a third rounder. If I'm Cincinnati I'd definitely try and move up to get one of the DT's, so that's a possibility. You never do know with the Bengals though.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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Miller was a 2nd round pick the year they didnt have a 1st (him & nugent went in rd 2). My point is year after year we invest either a high pick or sign a marque player in free agency and we still havent fixed the issue. Just like the Lions drafting all those receivers with their top picks, as well as signing guys like Hakim & Scroeder to big deals.

I am not sold on Pace yet, so IMO we need a pass rusher and a Wide Receiver with size more than we need a CB.
I see that there is difference.

With the exception of Roy Williams, all of the people the Lions brought in did horribly. Az Hakim and Bill Schroeder came from high profile offenses and did nothing in Detroit.

On the other hand, the Jets brought in Ty Law and he was great. But the Jets couldn't afford to keep him, so they let him go. I mean, he had 10 INT's as a Jet.

Andre Dyson was brought in and......... I don't even know what happened there. Dyson wasn't that bad on the field. Seeing as how the same thing was true in Seattle, I can only imagine there is something about him that was never made public.

Justin Miller - Decent nickle corner, very good kick returner, who knows if he'll ever be able to start. As I said before, he's not all that was advertized, but he's a heck of a lot better than anyone Detroit brought in at WR other than Roy Williams prior to last offseason.

Darelle Revis - One of the top young corners in the NFL.
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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Then that would leave Jake Long for us. Not ideal but certainly not a total loss as many are projecting him to be more of a RT anyway which we need. To me, there are only 5 possible players that I would want with the 6th pick (I am leaving Dorsey & Ellis out because of the Jenkins deal) if each of those 5 go before us (C. Long, Gholston, J. Long, McFadden, M. Ryan) then we should try to trade down even if we don't get true value.
idk how much i would like jake long with the woody signing, before we signed woody i was liking jake long if he was left but now idk, woody is way to expensive to use as a backup, so then people would say well move him to RG but
1. woody had to be moved outof the RG poition in detroit, yes detroit, because he wasnt playing too well (unless they just wanted him at OT which isnt what i heard)
2. i dont see whats wrong with brandon moore, and dont see the upgrade from woody to long and then moore to long is as good we should get with the 6th overlal pick with (from a talent and money standpoint)...moore is young and i dont think we really ahve to dratf OT, other than getting backups
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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if we were able to trade down to #9 for cincy to get dorsey/ellis, who would you guys want to target?

i think we could go WR (sweed probably at this pick), DL (possibly merling or balmer but it hink it may till be a reach), OLB (harvey or posibly groves), or CB (DRC or mckelvin)...i would probably prefer CB (not sure which)

also i realized, i really hope we dont haveboth mcfadden and gholston left at our pick because the pats pick after us...i would be scared to face either one of those guys and i just think that would make a scary pats team unfairly scarier...if mcfaddens there, even if they dont pick him, it jsut makes it easier for them to trade out and get more picks...ugh, god damn 49ers
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Old 04-01-2008, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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idk how much i would like jake long with the woody signing, before we signed woody i was liking jake long if he was left but now idk, woody is way to expensive to use as a backup, so then people would say well move him to RG but
1. woody had to be moved outof the RG poition in detroit, yes detroit, because he wasnt playing too well (unless they just wanted him at OT which isnt what i heard)
2. i dont see whats wrong with brandon moore, and dont see the upgrade from woody to long and then moore to long is as good we should get with the 6th overlal pick with (from a talent and money standpoint)...moore is young and i dont think we really ahve to dratf OT, other than getting backups

When the Jets signed Woody, they noted his "versatility" and I believe Tannenbaum even said the initial intention was to play him at right tackle, but did not rule out a position change down the road. Moore is a decent guard and will not hurt us at all, but he should not be the reason we dont go after a possible future All-Pro in Long (again the point is moot as I dont think he will be there at 6...)
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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When the Jets signed Woody, they noted his "versatility" and I believe Tannenbaum even said the initial intention was to play him at right tackle, but did not rule out a position change down the road. Moore is a decent guard and will not hurt us at all, but he should not be the reason we dont go after a possible future All-Pro in Long (again the point is moot as I dont think he will be there at 6...)
i would hope that we could then treade moore for good value, even though i like him, because i just think he is too good of a talent to have on the bench and some tema would probably want him...however, i would rather keep him on the bench (because we need backup OL) if we cant get good value for him
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Old 04-01-2008, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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if we trade down, what do we get out of cincy??

at nine im pickin either Harvey, Sweed, DRC, McKelvin or maybe Merling...ill continue when you say what else we get for trading down
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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if we trade down, what do we get out of cincy??

at nine im pickin either Harvey, Sweed, DRC, McKelvin or maybe Merling...ill continue when you say what else we get for trading down
I'm thinking we'd just pick up their third and that's enough for me to be honest.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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I'm thinking we'd just pick up their third and that's enough for me to be honest.
I'd be happy with a third as well. Only moving down three spots outside of the top five, Im not even sure the Jets would get that much.

But I will say this. What if McKelvin and DRC are gone at #9? Its not likely, but if Matt Ryan plummets, it could happen.
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Old 04-01-2008, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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I'd be happy with a third as well. Only moving down three spots outside of the top five, Im not even sure the Jets would get that much.

But I will say this. What if McKelvin and DRC are gone at #9? Its not likely, but if Matt Ryan plummets, it could happen.
I agree its unlikely, but don't you think Baltimore drafts Ryan at #8? I think if Ryan's there at 9 and we like him I'd be alright with taking him there. Otherwise I think I'd go with whoever the best wideout on our board is, can't think of anything much better. Wouldn't mind OL if we like the value either.

By the way, pick value chart says we should get a fifth and a sixth/seventh as well. Given Cincy has so many picks they might not mind, but I'd still definitely be alright with just the third.
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Old 04-01-2008, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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I agree its unlikely, but don't you think Baltimore drafts Ryan at #8? I think if Ryan's there at 9 and we like him I'd be alright with taking him there. Otherwise I think I'd go with whoever the best wideout on our board is, can't think of anything much better. Wouldn't mind OL if we like the value either.

By the way, pick value chart says we should get a fifth and a sixth/seventh as well. Given Cincy has so many picks they might not mind, but I'd still definitely be alright with just the third.
actually, the pick value chart says he difference between 6 and 9 is 250 (equals high 3rd round, 68 exactly), bengals pick at 77 i believe (205), so we would also probably get 45 more points (or a low 4th round pick), the bengals have a high 5th so we could swap 1sts, get their high 3 (77), their high 5, and possibly like a low 7...ill tkae that depneding on whos left, almost definitely
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