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Old 10-10-2007, 04:35 PM    (permalink
hcbrad08
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Needs (In Order):
1)NT:SPACE EATER
2)RT:MAULER who can power run bock
3)LG:RUN BLOCKING MAULER KILLER INSTINCT TO PICK UP BRICK
4)LDE: Converted taller DT Ellis isnt effective enough in the 3-4 and hes 31 or 32
5)ROLB:Hobson get swallowed at the line Bowens comes in only to blitz (only effective) Need a compliment to Bryan Thomas
6)RCB: Revis is having growing pains but will be a #1 Dyson forgot how to play football, miller will never be a #2 and Barrett makes me want to vomit. I like a DeJuan Dribble, he reminds me of ronde barber but I think hes out of our league in terms of need vs where hes gonna be taken I'm guessing 3rd round as of today cant pick that high. Maybe well get lucky.

I also wouldnt mind (espcially if the coaches still want to go with Chad next year) a very tall 6-4 or 6-5, jumping type reciever. I think it would make him better and ad an element a Jets offense hasnt seen since Keyshawn Johnson
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Last edited by hcbrad08 : 10-10-2007 at 04:45 PM. Reason: duplicate changed to quick post
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Old 10-10-2007, 04:49 PM    (permalink
AlexDown
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Originally Posted by hcbrad08 View Post
Sorry, I've been slackin guys....Not that it matters but Im just trying to say Im not just jumping in to slander any of you....

I've watched every game this year closely and the idea Chad is done as A starter (this year) is a bit unfounded...The game against the giants....I'll go through the picks

The long lofty one: ALL ON CHAD. He read the wrong defense blew out his mechanics and pulled a grossman and lobbed a pass off his back foot. Worst decision I've personally ever seen Chad make (Scary but it happens)...

Sam Madisons Pick: He was talking smack after the game about how he knew Chad threw a "light ball" but when asked by a reporter why he was torched and didn't jump those routes three times earlier in the game: once to baker once to LC and once when he had coverage on a swing pass...he said ok well he doesn't throw that bad a ball we just knew what play was coming....(bad pass and a bit soft but no huddle semi responsible for that one) Antonio Pierce also said after the game that they love playing against "that crap" (no huddle hurry up offense) He said when chad barks we get better reads on what play is coming.

The last pick by Aaron ross well first let me say I think we all know from last year (against the pats in the playoffs: santes int for td) that when the jets offense is asked to press at the end of games (not hurry but press and force throws downfield and get away from their plan) Chad can easily get jumped... Aaron ross also masked his coverage well and made a good play but in a 1st and 10 interview on cold pizza he said "we saw that formation and play earlier in the game, and they got us but we remembered we saw it on film and when they brought it again we knew it was coming thats why i showed blitz"

The point being is that LC said in the paper "If there is ONE guy to blame IT'S NOT CHAD PENNINGTON"
-The run blocking is terrible; can;t open holes(which in turn leads to...)
-The running game is terrrible (to....)
-Play calling is one dimensional... (to...)
-ineffective playaction; chads best move (to...)
-3 and outs early in the second half (to...)
-Run D sucks and they pound it down our throats (to...)
-The D is on the field a long time (to...)
-We start losing and have to press and chad can't press (he can hurry and metriculate but not press)

This is a compounding problem...Chad is a proven QB theres a reason we win more games when he plays than when he doesnt. Also, the picks last week were sooo costly but I think they weren't solely his fault, more like an avalanche of problems....Also, if you think the costly picks in Buffalo can dissprove my point McCareins and Coles both admitted to mis running their routes. Coles was supposed to stop before the 1st down marker and get YAC and McCareins was supposed to run a curl and he ran a 9.

I understand its easy to blame Chad, but howdo you explain when we need a score at the end of the first half when we dont press but hurry with the 2 minute drill we almost always march down the field and score, and admittedly its something we can only do in the 1st half which confuses me. Its a different game in the 4th than in the 2nd..essentially we can't win with anyone if we cant keep a 10 point lead in the 2nd half. Our play calling and formations (predictable offensive calls and playing out of our Defensive players strengths in the 3-4 instead of the 4-3) shows theyre not trying to accomodate players strengths (d with 3- 4, chad with play calling and no running game) but a vanilla (preset) gameplan (which requires almost perfect execution every play to be only adequate)

Personally if we have to press Id rather sub in Clemens he showed he can Press ie Ravens game with the best of them, BUT he hasnt showed he can manage a game well enough in 3/4 of the game in order to merit his position as the starter.


I personally think Chad is at the end of his rope with the Jets and its sad to see a guy as talented (not in arm strength but many other ways) as he is to end with the Jets with nothing to show for it. I've seen Ken O'Brien, Richard Todd I've seen tape of Namath and I think Chad, over his career is better than all of them in terms of decision making and managing 4 quarters of a game. Namath could press ebtter than anyone bc of his arm strength and lack of defensive complexity back then. O'Brien and Todd are analagous to Pennington in terms of the wasted opportunity of talent, I hate to see him go but I think next year if he's not gone theres a QB controversy.


sorry for the essay making up for lost time
I enjoyed reading that and hearing your insights. Bumping this to the new page.
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Old 10-10-2007, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Bout time ya came back brad. I liked ur assesment about chad; he really only had two bad games as far as ints go, and the latest game wasn't as bad as i originally saw. Granted the final outcome of the ints were terrible, but after futher analysis they weren't as terrible as originally thought (except that one in the endzone). I really liked your points about pressing and hurrying, A+ hah... I do still feel that with chad we don't have the deep game element, even tho mangini continues to say we do. Mangini named off a few routes of 20 or under; to me that is only a mid range game. You don't see the occasional shot down field to a chad johnson, marvin harrison etc. regardless, i meant to talk about ur assesment as far as the draft goes.

I whole-heartedly agree that our #1 priority is a true NT. However, I havn't liked what I've seen from Okam, especially with such a high pick. I have a feeling as the draft roles around there will be a few guys that will be touted as a potential NT. From what I have heard, Red Bryan & Jason Shirley have the size and potential to be a good one. Now, i havn't seen them play and am relying on other peoples opinions, but it is clearly one of our biggest needs. I have this sneaking suspision that with San Fran needing one badly too the price will be a little higher than it should be, but oh well.

Next you have RT; personally i would switch LG and RT, but the point is moot, becuase you don't take an OG in the first round. And since there isn't a NT (becuase i dont like Okam) that is worthy of being taken in the first round and I dont beleive in taking a OG in the first round, the argument could be made that RT should be our first adressed matter. Now, I would normally like this pick. However, I have fallen for one of toonsters picks quite a bit; tyson jackson the big DE out of LSU. Granted he is a junior, but if they win the NC this year I beleive he comes out. He has the size to play 3-4 DE and would take up double teams extremely well. Combine him with one of the NT's who will be taken in the 2nd or 3rd or lower rounds and the line becomes that much better, while automatically upping the play of our linebackers. I love the idea of adding a 330+ NT and 6'5 292 DE excites me hah.

I think that if we do land a Tyson Jackson in the first round, there are plenty of starter quality RT and OGs to take in round two and lower. That is assuming we don't land anybody in free agency (I dont like to guess on free agency, becuase everyone on every forum always assumes there team goes and gets the best free agents. So I will just assume that we don't get any). It is also going to be interesting to see where bender is going to be playing, because that would definately affect whether we make RT or OG higher priority.

I know that you had LDE as lower in the order, but I have watched jackson a lot this year and he has the ability to constantly take double teams. And if our nose can require double teams than that leaves room for penetration from jackson. ANd if for the luck of god that both of our NT and DE can just eat up blockers than vilma will finally be able to play up to his potential. I do want to point out that if there isn't a top quality DE with the perfect size to play in our system such as jackson, than I dont feel that DE is of a high priority. I just felt he was a great pick because of his ability. Anyways, ill be looking forward to hearing some other peoples ideas on tyson jackson (im pretty sure someone brought him up the other day and i really liked the pick). And i will just throw this out, my favorite guard is Jordan Grimes. And i used to love tommy blake, until all this taking time off because he is becoming too stressed with all the football and whatnot bologna.
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Old 10-10-2007, 08:11 PM    (permalink
Zim3031
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Finally this board get's a meaningful post. I was getting bored coming here :)

Quote:
Sorry, I've been slackin guys....Not that it matters but Im just trying to say Im not just jumping in to slander any of you....

I've watched every game this year closely and the idea Chad is done as A starter (this year) is a bit unfounded...The game against the giants....I'll go through the picks

The long lofty one: ALL ON CHAD. He read the wrong defense blew out his mechanics and pulled a grossman and lobbed a pass off his back foot. Worst decision I've personally ever seen Chad make (Scary but it happens)...

Sam Madisons Pick: He was talking smack after the game about how he knew Chad threw a "light ball" but when asked by a reporter why he was torched and didn't jump those routes three times earlier in the game: once to baker once to LC and once when he had coverage on a swing pass...he said ok well he doesn't throw that bad a ball we just knew what play was coming....(bad pass and a bit soft but no huddle semi responsible for that one) Antonio Pierce also said after the game that they love playing against "that crap" (no huddle hurry up offense) He said when chad barks we get better reads on what play is coming.

The last pick by Aaron ross well first let me say I think we all know from last year (against the pats in the playoffs: santes int for td) that when the jets offense is asked to press at the end of games (not hurry but press and force throws downfield and get away from their plan) Chad can easily get jumped... Aaron ross also masked his coverage well and made a good play but in a 1st and 10 interview on cold pizza he said "we saw that formation and play earlier in the game, and they got us but we remembered we saw it on film and when they brought it again we knew it was coming thats why i showed blitz"
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. All of these picks can clearly be traced to the quarterback's decision making or poor throws. Receivers run similar routes throughout the game. Too blame a bad throw on Pennington because the defense 'saw the route already' seems silly. If Pennington can't make certain throws or identify open receivers unless the defensive backs are lost, then that is a problem.

And quite honestly, it's not been Chad's failure to take care of the ball recently that bothered me. It's the complete lack of points that his offense is able to put up. The Bills game was a perfect example of this. They had the worst defense in the NFL with a ridiculous amount of injuries and Chad's offense put up a measly 14 points. We were shut out in the first half!

It completely boggles my mind when people (not you necessarily) point to a QB's completion percentage after a game as 'proof' that he had a great game. Of course, this matters very little if the offense puts up virtually no points. The Jets offense is so easy to game plan because of Chad's physical limitations; an offense who's field is squeezed within 20 yards can simply NOT be effective on any type of consistent basis. That's exactly what our offense is: ineffective.

Quote:
The point being is that LC said in the paper "If there is ONE guy to blame IT'S NOT CHAD PENNINGTON"
Good, teammates should stick up for their players. Chad is a great guy I'm sure. It's no surprise that the team would support him however he's playing.
Quote:
-The run blocking is terrible; can;t open holes(which in turn leads to...)
-The running game is terrrible (to....)
-Play calling is one dimensional... (to...)
You see now these are exactly the types of things I mean when I say that Chad's limitations holds the offense back. When a defense has virtually no fear of the passing game stretching the field, they can squeeze the field to within 20 yards. And when that happens, a defense can much more easily load up against the run.

Also, another problem I think with the running game may be the commitment to the no-huddle offense. When the offensive linemen don't have time to 'anchor in' so to speak, it can be far tougher to explode of the line and dominate.
Quote:
-Run D sucks and they pound it down our throats (to...)
-The D is on the field a long time (to...)
I agree, the defense is AWFUL on this team. However blaming them for the loss seems a little shortsighted. Between the Rhodes play and Vilma's interception at the end of the half, it can be easily argued that the defense put up 10 points for the team. How many did the offense put up again?
Quote:
This is a compounding problem...Chad is a proven QB theres a reason we win more games when he plays than when he doesnt. Also, the picks last week were sooo costly but I think they weren't solely his fault, more like an avalanche of problems....Also, if you think the costly picks in Buffalo can dissprove my point McCareins and Coles both admitted to mis running their routes. Coles was supposed to stop before the 1st down marker and get YAC and McCareins was supposed to run a curl and he ran a 9.
Of course we've won more games with Chad than without him. The likes of Brooks Bollinger and Patrick Ramsey are far worse, I'll definitely agree with you there ;)

However, this talk of Chad as a proven QB seems to imply as though he made this team a serious contender. That is simply not true; the jets have never been a contender with Pennington. Every year we've made the playoffs it involved us getting in after the last week and requiring other teams to lose to do so. And honestly, virtually all of our playoff runs ended in Chad playing horribly in a blowout loss. Our most successful year under Chad was probably 2004 where his awful play against the powerhouse teams that year, New England and Pitt, kept us from having any chance of contending. The offense put up a total of ONE touchdown in the 4 games we played against them that year. And that was with the NFL's leading rusher! People love to blame Doug Brien for keeping us out of the AFC championship that year but Penny played AWFUL in that game. I if remember, our offense put up 3 points that day.

Quote:
I personally think Chad is at the end of his rope with the Jets and its sad to see a guy as talented (not in arm strength but many other ways) as he is to end with the Jets with nothing to show for it. I've seen Ken O'Brien, Richard Todd I've seen tape of Namath and I think Chad, over his career is better than all of them in terms of decision making and managing 4 quarters of a game. Namath could press ebtter than anyone bc of his arm strength and lack of defensive complexity back then. O'Brien and Todd are analagous to Pennington in terms of the wasted opportunity of talent, I hate to see him go but I think next year if he's not gone theres a QB controversy.
Honestly, I think that Mangini's sticking by Pennington is more of a loyalty and respect thing than anything else. Pennington worked hard last year (if nothing else, he played very similar to what he's done this year IMO) and Mangini could be trying to maintain his loyalty to him. Another thing of course, could be locker room stability. Chad is undoubtedly a likable guy and I would expect nothing less than the entire locker room to rally behind him regardless of how poor he plays.

It's not as if the organization has been 'supportive' of Pennington since Mangini and Tannenbaum came into power. They were practically begging Chad to get cut because of his contract, drafted a quarterback very early, and humiliated him by forcing him to 'compete' with the likes of Ramsey, Bollinger, and the newly drafted Clemens. I would be shocked to see Pennington not traded in the offseason.


Quote:
sorry for the essay making up for lost time
No need to apologize. Best post on this slow board in a while.
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Old 10-10-2007, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcbrad08 View Post
Sorry, I've been slackin guys....Not that it matters but Im just trying to say Im not just jumping in to slander any of you....

I've watched every game this year closely and the idea Chad is done as A starter (this year) is a bit unfounded...The game against the giants....I'll go through the picks

The long lofty one: ALL ON CHAD. He read the wrong defense blew out his mechanics and pulled a grossman and lobbed a pass off his back foot. Worst decision I've personally ever seen Chad make (Scary but it happens)...

Sam Madisons Pick: He was talking smack after the game about how he knew Chad threw a "light ball" but when asked by a reporter why he was torched and didn't jump those routes three times earlier in the game: once to baker once to LC and once when he had coverage on a swing pass...he said ok well he doesn't throw that bad a ball we just knew what play was coming....(bad pass and a bit soft but no huddle semi responsible for that one) Antonio Pierce also said after the game that they love playing against "that crap" (no huddle hurry up offense) He said when chad barks we get better reads on what play is coming.

The last pick by Aaron ross well first let me say I think we all know from last year (against the pats in the playoffs: santes int for td) that when the jets offense is asked to press at the end of games (not hurry but press and force throws downfield and get away from their plan) Chad can easily get jumped... Aaron ross also masked his coverage well and made a good play but in a 1st and 10 interview on cold pizza he said "we saw that formation and play earlier in the game, and they got us but we remembered we saw it on film and when they brought it again we knew it was coming thats why i showed blitz"

The point being is that LC said in the paper "If there is ONE guy to blame IT'S NOT CHAD PENNINGTON"
-The run blocking is terrible; can;t open holes(which in turn leads to...)
-The running game is terrrible (to....)
-Play calling is one dimensional... (to...)
-ineffective playaction; chads best move (to...)
-3 and outs early in the second half (to...)
-Run D sucks and they pound it down our throats (to...)
-The D is on the field a long time (to...)
-We start losing and have to press and chad can't press (he can hurry and metriculate but not press)

This is a compounding problem...Chad is a proven QB theres a reason we win more games when he plays than when he doesnt. Also, the picks last week were sooo costly but I think they weren't solely his fault, more like an avalanche of problems....Also, if you think the costly picks in Buffalo can dissprove my point McCareins and Coles both admitted to mis running their routes. Coles was supposed to stop before the 1st down marker and get YAC and McCareins was supposed to run a curl and he ran a 9.

I understand its easy to blame Chad, but howdo you explain when we need a score at the end of the first half when we dont press but hurry with the 2 minute drill we almost always march down the field and score, and admittedly its something we can only do in the 1st half which confuses me. Its a different game in the 4th than in the 2nd..essentially we can't win with anyone if we cant keep a 10 point lead in the 2nd half. Our play calling and formations (predictable offensive calls and playing out of our Defensive players strengths in the 3-4 instead of the 4-3) shows theyre not trying to accomodate players strengths (d with 3- 4, chad with play calling and no running game) but a vanilla (preset) gameplan (which requires almost perfect execution every play to be only adequate)

Personally if we have to press Id rather sub in Clemens he showed he can Press ie Ravens game with the best of them, BUT he hasnt showed he can manage a game well enough in 3/4 of the game in order to merit his position as the starter.


I personally think Chad is at the end of his rope with the Jets and its sad to see a guy as talented (not in arm strength but many other ways) as he is to end with the Jets with nothing to show for it. I've seen Ken O'Brien, Richard Todd I've seen tape of Namath and I think Chad, over his career is better than all of them in terms of decision making and managing 4 quarters of a game. Namath could press ebtter than anyone bc of his arm strength and lack of defensive complexity back then. O'Brien and Todd are analagous to Pennington in terms of the wasted opportunity of talent, I hate to see him go but I think next year if he's not gone theres a QB controversy.


sorry for the essay making up for lost time

Nice post, a wealth of info in there and your analysis of the issues that lead to each other and eventually to a loss was awesome. I think what you're trying to say is things aren't as simple as they look and the turnovers and losses aren't really on Chad, but he's probably running out of time very quickly. I agree with you, I don't think everything's his fault, and right now he probably gives this team the best chance to win. He's got EVERYTHING except that gun of an arm, and is supremely talented, most Jets fans (myself included) love the guy. However, in a couple games, around the bye week maybe, we're going to have to take a look at this team and see what direction we're headed in. And the thought process hopefully will be something along the lines of, are we making the playoffs this year? If not, Clemens should at least get a couple of starts before the end of the season so we have a good idea of what we have with him, because if he's not the future we'll need to address that in this upcoming draft. Great post, stick around here a little more this forum gets really slow otherwise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hcbrad08 View Post
Needs (In Order):
1)NT:SPACE EATER
2)RT:MAULER who can power run bock
3)LG:RUN BLOCKING MAULER KILLER INSTINCT TO PICK UP BRICK
4)LDE: Converted taller DT Ellis isnt effective enough in the 3-4 and hes 31 or 32
5)ROLB:Hobson get swallowed at the line Bowens comes in only to blitz (only effective) Need a compliment to Bryan Thomas
6)RCB: Revis is having growing pains but will be a #1 Dyson forgot how to play football, miller will never be a #2 and Barrett makes me want to vomit. I like a DeJuan Dribble, he reminds me of ronde barber but I think hes out of our league in terms of need vs where hes gonna be taken I'm guessing 3rd round as of today cant pick that high. Maybe well get lucky.

I also wouldnt mind (espcially if the coaches still want to go with Chad next year) a very tall 6-4 or 6-5, jumping type reciever. I think it would make him better and ad an element a Jets offense hasnt seen since Keyshawn Johnson
I agree with you on all of the needs, though I think the top 4 will get mixed around depending on whose available. Also like the mention of the corner spot in there. My question to you is this, you mention the OLB spot but didn't specify there. What kind of guy are you talking, a pure pass rusher or a guy with experience dropping into coverage as well? Just curious to see what you're thinking there and why. Finally, with the wideouts I think if a good guy's available at the top of the draft we could look in that direction depending on what LC is thinking of doing, since he's alluded to retirement. A jump ball guy would be nice, but if Coles continues to say he doesn't think he could handle that many more training camps or tells us we should try and come up with a successor, a tough guy, good blocker that runs well after the catch in the mold of our starters now would be awesome. I love our wideouts, one of the more underrated starting duos in the league. Again, nice post...

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Old 10-10-2007, 10:23 PM    (permalink
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So do you guys think that the added emphasis mangini put on form tackeling today during practice will show dividends? It seems as tho each week we have improved in certain aspects; maybe they weren't enough to win the game but there were signs of def. improvement. Our first two weeks there were serious problems with opponents starting field position as well as ours (pats kickoff td). I don't remember exact numbers, but besides the obvious 2 return tds, our opponents field position has decreased each game as well as ours has increased. And I did see some good plays against the screen. Maybe this week it will be wrapping up and driving the legs at the point of contact until someone else can get there to take the guy down, limiting YAC. I beleive that the screen plays and form tackling are gonna be a major issue this weekend when playing westrbook. We need to stop him as soon as we hit him, becuase he is very dangerous in the open field.

I think the most important thing for us is to play 4 consistent qtrs of hard nosed football. Not 3 3/4 because right now, we aren't good enough to get by on just talent.

I am going to look for another solid job by our line limiting qb hurries and sacks, and I do have this notion that chad might be getting rid of the ball too quickly, perhaps afraid to really hang in there and take the hit (someone let me know what they think, becuase im not sold on this idea yet, but i just had the thought in the back of my mind). The thing to look for here is going to be getting some pressure on the qb, as it always is. Mcnabb, like any qb, given enough time will be able to find an open reciever. However, we all know Donovan isn't the most accurate qb in the league, far from it. If we can somehow contain westbrook and make him uncomfortable, i feel his innacuracies will start to show. Especially since hes not 100% with his mobility due to his knee.
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I think the idea Chad's become gun-shy is well founded...Throughout his career has been sacked and really doesn't have a true and proven veteran in front of him (like pete kendall). It doesn't explain all his decisions and mistakes but its probably a reason hes making bad throws which we haven't traditionally seen him do.

I think we've been in every game we've played with the exception of the 2nd half of the patriots game. We have the ability to beat these teams it's just a matter of gameplanning and improvising if its not working. Creativity in blitz packages and offensive schemes last year got us a long way. The defense needs to step up and the offense needs to operate at least decently in both the pass and run game. The idea that chad is not responsible for any or all our offensive woes is unfounded but to blame him entirely is even more problematic. Hes had "5 plays" that if he could have go incomplete or taken a sack he would have around 115 QB rating and perhaps 2 more wins. I think he steps up this weekend, remember to watch his entire play and see how the team picks him up or leaves him out to dry. (Bill Walsh arguably the greatest offensive football mind ever said the last thing he worries about is a QBs arm strength, i think he woul dlove a QB with chads abilities...too bad our coach isnt Bill walsh hahaha (RIP))

In terms of the draft...
-NT: Red Bryant: I can't say i like him. 1st I've seen him play and hes not dominant in college so what will he do in the pros. He also had season ending kneee surgury last season and missed the Holiday Bowl. We already have a guy whos 315 at 6'1'' with knee problems playing NT and he hasn't exactly worked out. The last thing I want is a TALL NT who doesnt carry as much weight as I would like. I know some think its taboo but a shorter guy who is more compact has traditionally been the better fit at NT. I know a strong base and occupying multiple blockers is key, but I a guy who is 6'5'' and 325 (bryant) is not as big as a guy whos 6'2'' 325 (wilfork) who has more weight per sq. in. and is just massive. Think about it this way...Seymore and pro bowl 34 defensive end is 6-5 310. I like Jason Shirley a bit more bc Fresno state runs more of a 3-4 (its a college modified systm and in the WAC so take it for what you will) but hes too tall as well for my liking). Regardless we need a monster in the middle and if he can be it Id prefer him. Id REALLY prefer a NT 6'3'' or under carrying 325+. To be perfectly honest besides Raji who would have been perfect for the Jets, Frank Morton Tulane is the only true NT in terms of optimal size (a huge part of being of NT...but are his skills that bad?). We'll see.
-DE: I love Ty Jackson at LSU I want to see how he times for triangle and 40.
Calais Cambell at Miami might also come out his 6-8 280 DE whos still getting stronger. Im wary about the fact he might be too tall but again we'll see His play speaks for itself (esp against UNC when miami was stinking it up he still looked good). I also like Dre Moore out of Maryland for DE he's 6-4 310 and he dominates. He plays fast enough to be an end and I think he'd be a great value pick if he drops to the 3rd round.
-OLB: shawn crable, quentin groves, kenny iwebema....Tommy Blake would have been perfect for our D but he left the team for personal reasons. (1st Raji out for ineligibility now him...the draft is falling away from us)

Ultimately I started my crazy postulating (including ridiculous trades and the liek) and came just after Limas Sweed anounced he's done for the season...
Cut:
Hicks
Clement
McCareins
Trade (all to teams with 4-3 defenses):
Vilma:1st rounder
Robertson: 2nd rounder
Hobson: 3rd rounder
and now you have miraculously
1a: Quentin Groves OLB
1b: Gosder Cherilus RT
2a: Adarius Bowman WR
2b: Roy Schuening LG
3a: DeJuan Dribble CB
3b: Dre Moore DE
4: Frank Morton NT
5: Amir Pinnix RB
6: Chester Adams OG
7: Erick Wicks SS

This is essentially an attempt to solve all the Jets problems via the draft...To be honest I dont think theyll trade Vilma unless they feel hes completely useless in the 34 and or unless they feel they can gain a big NT to protect him...Frank Morton is prob not the solution if this were how the draft fell I would expect us to pick up a NT in Free Agency or trade if possible.

Basically these are just all prosepct I like for the value of where theyre picked
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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That is an absolutely sick mock draft. Tons of players I love in there. Figure I'll give quick thoughts.

1a: Quentin Groves OLB
Out of all of the first round guys I think Groves is the best OLB for our defense, as he has a little more experience dropping into coverage than most. I think if we take a guy that's not as smooth dropping back into coverage or just convert a DE we'll have trouble in coverage because although both of our OLB's are great pass rushers they'll be liabilities dropping back. A guy that you mentioned who I LOVE as a fit for us is Crable, I think he'd be a great fit and if we could grab him in the second it'd be a massive steal.

1b: Gosder Cherilus RT
Can't really argue with Cherilus at all, we definitely need a RT and he's quite a good player, could look in that direction a little later but with a guy like him on the board it's tough to pass up.

2a: Adarius Bowman WR
Bowman is probably my favorite wideout in the draft for us. If LC decides to hang 'em up eventually I think he's a great future starting wideout for us. Right in the mold of our receivers, strong, good after the catch, good blocker. I love the mold of our wideouts and Bowman fits in very nicely with what we have at the position. Also adds a new dimension to our offense with his height.

2b: Roy Schuening LG
Like this pick as well. To be honest, I don't know as much about Schuening as the other guys you've mentioned so far, but I trust you and based on the position I think this pick really solidifies our line. Very solid for years to come.

3a: DeJuan Dribble CB
Really like Tribble, just a good overall corner and I like the fact that he has good ball skills as well. I think that's going to be a focus as we look for a starter across from Revis, as we'll want a guy who not only cover number 2 wideouts well but can make some plays for us if offenses throw away from Revis for the majority of a game.

3b: Dre Moore DE
Moore is a fantastic player, one of my favorites in the draft. I honestly see him rising up into the first round range, so if we get him here he's an absolute steal. The best thing about him is his versatility, as he's played some NT and DE and has the ability to play both in the pro's. If we draft him, we can rotate him in at all spots and if he does have some success at the NT spot we can give him a shot to bulk up and play there, even though he is a tad tall. And if not, we can leave him at end. Really like Moore for us.

4: Frank Morton NT
Morton has the best frame for a 3-4 NT outside of Raji in this draft. Like Shirley, I don't know all that much about him, but at this point he's definitely worth a shot.

5: Amir Pinnix RB
Don't know too much about Pinnix (by the way, a little info on Schuening, Morton, Pinnix, Adams, and Wicks would be great) but purely based on size he doesn't look too big, a larger back to compliment Leon would be my preference but again I don't know much about him so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.

6: Chester Adams OG
Again, don't know much about Adams but like the pick for OL depth and he looks like he's as monster so I can't complain.

7: Erick Wicks SS
Same deal with Wicks here, although I'd really only take him at this point if he's a good ST guy, I kind of like our safety depth. Wouldn't mind seeing a linebacker here. By the way, after trading Vilma who's starting inside next to Harris, Barton I'd guess?

Again, very nice mock draft, love some players at the top. It'll be interesting to see where a lot of these guys that have first round potential, Bowman and Moore come to mind and possibly Tribble scratches the late first if somebody falls in love, end up.
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Old 10-11-2007, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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Why can't Mangini just say 'okay the 3-4 did not work, let's move back to the 4-3 so our players are more comfortable'

If that is the case then we go out and draft a DT or DE for the 4-3 and then this would be our roster:

DE - Ellis
DT - Robertson
DT - Coleman/Draft Pick
DE - Thomas/Draft Pick
OLB - Barton
MLB - Vilma/Harris
OLB - Hobson
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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scenario I just heard on the radio: obviously the Panthers are desperate for a QB, and they have a first place team in a very bad division. I don't think they want Carr or Vinny leading them to the playoffs. The question is would you consider trading Pennington to the Panthers for maybe a 1st and a later 2nd or something, and then sort of throw away this season with Kellen at QB, come back next year with 2 new first rounders and have a real team?
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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I think that if we could get a first for penny, then we should do the deal, but that isn't very likely at all
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Just read Jason Shirley has been suspended indefinitely for violating undisclosed school rules so there goes another NT prospect...Sam Adams at 65 years of age is looking better and better by the day...come one hes 370 pounds!
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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He was suspended indefinitely after being arrested for driving under the influence and crashing into an apartment complex. He still will enter the draft becuase he is a senior, but I guess thats not really the type of person we want on our team?? Anyways, about the chad question. I don't think you keep the locker room together by trading away everybody's best friend; I would make the trade as it would prove to be extremely beneficial if we could land a 1st rounder. Mangini won't bench chad, I doubt he'll trade him. THe only way i see that ever come to fruition would be if carolina is the one who offers the big trade.


Edit: I can't remember if I read it on here or in the paper somewheres. It was rumored that sometime in preseason there was a list rolling around in the jets FO that listed the players from 1 - 56 or whatever, in order of there value i beleive. Apparantly Drob was right near the top. I just have this feeling that we aren't parting ways with drob anytime soon. The more i think about it the more i really liked that tyson jackson pick, or a pick along those lines. I think if one of the DEs can occupy the double team that will allow drob do penetrate and use his quickness and explosiveness. This would only be a stop gap until the following year when the true NTs come out like Rajji or the kid from michigan.

BRad, I kinda took your flow chart idea with the run blocking in order to explain the problems to my buddy. I added a little bit to explain how it could be helped;

-CHad has the inability to throw down field. Hes in the very low percentage of anything throws over 20 yards etc.
-This causes defenses to be able to play closer to the line of scrimmage.
-this causes the run to be stuffed
-that leads to like u said one dimensional play calling from our team, becuase our running is inept. As well as the play calling from the opp. defenses to be pretty focused in on the short passing game of our offense.

I was explaining to him that it could be helped in a number of ways. I only explained two of the ways; both rely on fixing one aspect of the offense and it having a huge trickle down effect.

Replace chad with kellen, or any other QB with a big arm. If you have a qb that takes shots down field; and by that i mean multiple routes in the 20 yard range as well as a few 30+ just to keep them honest. Now, even if you dont complete them the teams will still have to have that idea in the back of their heads. Granted, if you have completed 1 out of 20 it doesn't play that big of a role, but for our sake lets assume kellen complets a decent percentage. The defense is no longer allowed to stack the box, we assume our running game gets off the ground, which leads to play action and more diverse play calling. This however, seems too easy. That's becuase it is. With chad we know we have high completion percentage, smarts and generally good decisions. If we have a qb with a strong arm who doesn't know how to read defenses and extremely innacurate, than we really are just gaining in one area and losing in another. Itd be like sticking grossman in our offense. (he can make all the throws, but he makes terrible decisions) Anyways im getting away from the point. But we can see that having a stronger arm has an affect on other aspects of the game.

#2. If we keep the QB the same, but just beef up the oline. Say we add Jammal Brown, Steve Hutchinson and Logan Mankins; this would definately open up holes and cutback lanes for TJ and leon. This would make chads play action much more affective and thus it makes teams have to honor the pass and the run. It opens up our play calling, while still allowing chad to do his thing. Granted the ideal would be to have a strong armed, game manager with a good oline and running game but not everyone can be the pats. The point is tho, that we can increase our running game passing game in different ways and the outcome is still relatively the same. So like you said it can't all be put on chad. Some of it? Of course, he is the starting qb and team leader. But if he had more help up front would we be having this huge debate? I think its tough to tell.


and wow sorry for how long guys. I figure we have a new post or two every couple days so take your time with it haha.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Back in New York for the weekend and my father got some some tickets for the game this weekend. Pretty excited, since it's been the first Jets game I went to since they played the Texans in 04.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Even though I'm disgusted with the way we're playing, I am getting a huge positive out of the way Vilma has played. Bloody brilliant. I'm so happy we didn't trade him, and we better not.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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by far the best game from our defense as a whole (not including that first td where smith took an aweful angle of pursuit) and TJ/Oline. Besides that, chads inability to get us into the endzone and mangini's play calling on 3-1 and 4-1 made me sick.

Another int, and it was just completely underthrown. Yes, there were plays we could have made; coles missed one etc. but the point is, chad just cannot get us into the endzone. We intercepted the ball in the red zone and could only put 3 up.

HOW do we QB sneak on 3-1, when it was a very long 1, instead of pound the ball with TJ. He had been running the ball so well, how can you not trust him to get 2 yards on 2 downs. That right there is absolutely terrible play calling.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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Was any1 at the game? I was there and 2 big fights broke out next to my section and in the level below me... It was the bright spot of the game for Jets fans.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimDris View Post
Was any1 at the game? I was there and 2 big fights broke out next to my section and in the level below me... It was the bright spot of the game for Jets fans.
I was at the game and saw two fights. It doesn't even seem humanly possible that some of these Jet fans can be this stupid. I am always suprised by some of the moronic behavior / comments on playcalling I hear and see. It really pisses me off when I see parents having to leave the game or move temporarly during a game to sheild their children away from two drunk idiots.

Also, we have the ball on the 4 yard line, 2nd and 1 and we can't convert. TERRIBLE

I mean, really really bad.
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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After todays game i see no reason why Clemens won't be starting next week
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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After todays game i see no reason why Clemens won't be starting next week
Does, 'because Mangini said so' qualify?

:(
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
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Does, 'because Mangini said so' qualify?

:(
i dont wanna hate on mangini, but he is being way to loyal to chad. and that 3-1 and 4-1 call, when it was clearly a long 1 almost 2 yards, i dont understand how u dont trust ut oline and workhouse to pick up those yards, especially after the performance they have been having. I think that right there just shows them that he doesn't even enough faith in them to pick up the yards in the normal smash mouth football type of way.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
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Does, 'because Mangini said so' qualify?

:(
That just doesn't make sense (not you, mangini)
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Old 10-15-2007, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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This is what happens when youre losing...mistakes are amplified and things that are already weaknesses become more apparent to the teams you face.
The Play calling was the worst Ive ever seen it on offense. Look at the tape and anytime we got any sort of long pass play 9+yards and on bigger running plays we just said okay draw to the left and got stuffed. If fans know the play calling tendancies than what do other coacches know. I'm very surprised we didn'rt score from the 4. I hated the calls and wanted them to pass earlier. I have a feeling Mangini has sacked this season. we'd have to go 9-1 the rest of the way to make the playoffs and if were really lucky 8-2. If he starts Chad he gives Clemens more time to groove himself into a true starter. Im all for playing young QBs but not if it will be a hinderance to their progress as opposed to developing and I think we can win SOME games with Chad.

I can really seet his happening...The Jets keep Chad next season (as a backup...his salary is incentive based so he makes like 1.5 base then bonuses which makes this feasible)...Clemens play well and people say why didn't he start earlier and Mangini attributes it to his sitting and development and makes himself look like a genius again...Im pretty sure Chad is starting next week against a horrible Bengals D and if the season goes completely aft astray sometime soon I can see Clemens come in.

After yesterdays game I realized even for clemens we need a BIG reciever so a high ball doesnt kill him. LC is so athletic and goes up to get balls which put him at risk but if some sailing balls went to a bigger WR then I think it would be beneficial to a one dimensional WR core who can be defensed with one game plan as opposed to teams with diverse players like the Patriots who have Stallworth great at YAC MOss deep threat Welker possesion/YAC and so on (both LC and JC have good hands but aren't burners but they are great at YAC and in the open field, we need a multifaceted attack)

Bright spots: Not many
-Defense looked better but not great I noticed all game they just got bullied around at the point of attack...Still LBs played better and Kenyon Coleman is a real 3-4 DE.
-Every season there is a team that is so close to winning but loses a lot. The next season it's those types of teams who (if they can make some adjustments) people say well they were in everygame they played last year and since improvements a b and c happened they've gotten over the hump and are a contender. (Hopefully, that pertains to us)
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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I don't see how starting Chad over Clemens would equate to more wins. Honestly, I think if Clemens played that game you come away with a W.

And theres no experience like in game experience. Clemens sat a year already, and has shown that he can get into the game and play well. He doesn't get rattled. Heck, he stuck it to the Ravens defense in his first start. He's ready. Now all he needs is some game experience, and this is the perfect season to give it to him.

Starting a qb for the first time for an entire season often leads to growing pains. Its better to give him his growing pains now, during a season thats already lost, then come out swinging next year. Why ruin 2 years? I respect Chad alot, but its time to end the loyalty.

The Clemens era needs to start sooner, not later.

And while the playcalling was bad, Chad definately plays a role in that. You simply can't call some plays because of his arm. The Philly defense said themselves that they challenged him to throw deep all game and he couldn't do it. Chad is holding this team back. Bottomline. I have no doubt in my mind had Clemens started this season you would have at least 3 wins this season.
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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I thought the Redskins waited too long to start Jason Campbell era, but they finally did it last season and it's paying off now (although I would have liked Campbell to have had more experience to benefit him now).

I think Kellen Clemens is a very good quarterback prospect, honestly, it's his time. Especially with two very talented receivers in Coles and Cotchery, it's disappointing that Cotchery can't fully flourish and attack defenses as long as Pennington is his quarterback. If they can draft a tight end this year, with athleticism and speed to help their young quarterback, and address the offensive line, the Jets offense could become very potent.

The Jets are fine at runningback with Thomas Jones and Leon Washington.
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