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Old 11-09-2006, 11:30 PM    (permalink
jmanz
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Default Re: Yah

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Originally Posted by Komp
Yah, I know nothing about this Rouse player either. Like I said, I don't mind taking a physical DB in the 4th or later....but we need DL/OL/TE way before secondary, where we already have a lot of youth.
Help on the DL wouldn't be bad at all with the way teams have been running on us. And on the offensive side, where do I begin......
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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Address OL in free agency, we've wasted enough draft picks on Olinemen and have a bunch of young Olinemen that can maybe learn from some proven vets. i hope we dont draft any Olinemen
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Old 11-10-2006, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Default yah...

I definitely wouldn't risk a 1st rd pick on an OL, but if there is a Marcus McNeil type talent [I KNEW He'd be good for some reason] that drops to rd2, that would be hard to turn down. Where else do you go in rd2? WR or TE?
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Old 11-10-2006, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure who's gonna be out there for free agents on the O-line but yeah that would be great if we could land someone. Also, if we could pick up a TE somewhat in the mold of a Joe Klopfenstein in the later rounds we'd be doing good. I think he's gonna be a good player in a couple years.
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Default Re: Oakland Raiders Discussion

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Originally Posted by Scott Wright
Discuss the Raiders here.

I'll start!

Do they need offensive line help bad, really bad or desperately? :D
What is desperately Pat?
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scott Wright
As I mentioned in my blog the other day it's kind of crazy that the Raiders o-line is so bad because they have invested draft picks there, including a lot of high ones. So if you ask me the problem then comes down to either coaching or scouting. I am inclined to say coaching isn't the problem because they have had two coaching staffs with the same problem and now there are Hall of Fame o-linemen trying to whip them into shape. That leaves poor scouting as the reason for me...
I would say poor coaching actually. These guys do have talent. Just as Scott Wright about Robert Gallery and Jake Grove. (that would be you) And Langston Walker was very highly rated as well when we drafted him. Kevin Boothe has actually been playing well and Sims... Well, he actually was performing well under Kromer.

The Raiders' offensive line needs 1 of 2 things. They need more time. Or they need a new coaching staff. After going out and drafting Boothe and McQuistan this year, they've got 4 offensive linemen with less than 3 full years of service time, and a fifth with just a year or two more in Langston Walker. In those 3 years, Grove, Gallery and Walker have actually had 4 offensive line coaches. They had Aaron Kromer in 2004, Jim Colletto in 2005 and now they have Jackie Slater (Hall of Fame player, not coach) and Irv Eatman (Pro Bowl player, but not necessarily a good coach), not to mention Art Shell trying to jump in and "help" them out when he has the chance.

Under Kromer, the offensive line that consisted of Sims at LT, Brad Badger at LG, Adam Treu/Jake Grove at C, Ron Stone at RG and Robert Gallery the rookie at RT gave up only 30 sacks on the whole season--and that's with Mr. Immobility Jr. Kerry Collins at QB for every single game after halftime in Week 3. (Sr. being Drew Bledsoe) That was good for 6th in the league.

Then, under Jim Colletto, with the same personnell, the offensive line gave up a total of 45 sacks--that's 15 extra sacks, good for an extra 50%--dropping the unit down to 24th in the league, tied with such offensive line powerhouses as Cleveland and Arizona.

Now, under the "Hall of Famers and Pro Bowlers" the Raiders have reached a total of 44 sacks halfway through the season. They have completely shifted the line around, but with such "great coaches" you would expect them to be able to at least get something out of little or no talent right? So far they have been able to get the least amount of results with nearly the same talent that Aaron Kromer and Jim Colletto had.

Oh, and did I mention that the Raiders ranked last in rushing yards and rushing attempts in 2004? They didn't even try to fool the opposing defenses that they were running the football, ranking 4th in passing attempts with 582.

So adding in the failed pass attempts that ended in sacks, they had the QB drop back 612 times. The sack rate per pass play was once every 20.4. That was definitely among the best in the league.

In 2005, the Raiders' offense was once again pass happy, ranking 6th in pass attempts with 591. They actually ranked 5th in pass plays when adding their sacks allowed into the equation. The sack rate per play under coach Jim Colletto dropped to a less than stellar 14.1. And once again, the Raiders ranked near last in the league in rushing attempts at 31, and 29th in rushing yards.

This year, under the "Hall of Famers and Pro Bowler" the Raiders rushing attack ranks middle of the pack, at 18 in yards per game and 23 in attempts. Certainly not a "grind-it-out" offense, but definitely an improvement on the ground over the last two years, but it certainly hasn't been fooling the opposing pass rushers. Ranking 2nd to last in pass attempts, the Raiders are giving up a sack once every 5.8 pass plays. That makes Jim Colletto's 24th ranked unit look like All-Pros.

But wait, these are nearly identical units... The only new player is Kevin Boothe, and he has been doing arguably the best job of all the 5 of them, so we can't really blame it on the talent, now can we? If we can't blame it on the talent the players have, we can't bring out the argument that the ineptitude of this offensive line is caused by poor scouting.

So assuming that you are correct Scott, and the Raiders' offensive line problems stem from one of two things, we must then assume that the Raiders have a poor offensive line because the Raiders' offensive line has poor coaching.

If you want visual evidence of this, watch the Raiders' offensive line during the game, particularly Robert Gallery and Jake Grove. They have had five different voices in their ears over the course of two and a half years. From the second they get set on the line to the end of the play, watch their faces--their eyes in particular. They are out there trying to think. It's like they have a calculus problem they are trying to work out in their heads. On the football field, especially on the offensive line, the last thing you should have to be doing is thinking. This is caused by two things. First, it would be caused by the previously stated lack of continuity in their coaches. And secondly, it would be caused by an extremely difficult style of coaching that they are attempting to learn this year. Likely, I would say it is a combination of both of these factors.

By these numbers, one could argue that the talent is not the problem, the talent is there because it is the same talent that was one of the best units in pass protection just two years ago, but rather that it is a problem with coaching. Thus, the best solution may not be the easy solution of draft or signing a completely new offensive line, but rather the tough solution of taking the time to let this unit get used to this coaching staff and style of blocking.
Excellent post NIP!

However, I disagree to some extent. Given your research I'll go with the notion that the coaching has a negative impact upon the Oline. With that being said I can't say that any of these guys is a top flight talent. IMO they have taken a step backwards but I think that we have seen them at their peak. I'm not holding my breath for any of these guys develop into a great player.

Also, we've all seen highly touted draft propects who didn't pan out in the NFL so just because they were 'highly touted' means nothing. Therefore I think that scouting does play a part in this. A good scout looks beyond the hype and KNOWS quality players. Players that have a better than average shot of making it in the NFL. Given the number of busts that the Raiders have produced I think its fair to say that our scouting staff is rather suspect.
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nobodyinparticular
this team has way too many needs elsewhere to think about anywhere in the secondary. Schwig has been playing very well and everyone in the secondary is growing. Basically, we could use a NT, a DE and minorly (as a luxury) a strongside LB upgrade. Other than that, the defense is fine. The offense is the one to worry about. Look at RB, TE, WR, WR, RT, FB. (note: if McQuistan is going to move to RT, then we need another OG) We may need a center, allowing Grove to move to OG.
Agreed.

We have too many needs elsewhere to start thinking about another DB early.

Our defense is doing well but we suck at stopping the run so for my money I'd invest in a DT long before another DB.
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by locseti
Address OL in free agency, we've wasted enough draft picks on Olinemen and have a bunch of young Olinemen that can maybe learn from some proven vets. i hope we dont draft any Olinemen
that's a great idea in principle but who do we go after? Where are the stud lineman that are FA's this year? There aren't any, so while the idea may be sound (even though we haven't really been succesful at it) with no real quality people available we're gonna need to look somewhere else for help. Which means either a trade or through the draft.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Vespasian
Quote:
Originally Posted by locseti
Address OL in free agency, we've wasted enough draft picks on Olinemen and have a bunch of young Olinemen that can maybe learn from some proven vets. i hope we dont draft any Olinemen
that's a great idea in principle but who do we go after? Where are the stud lineman that are FA's this year? There aren't any, so while the idea may be sound (even though we haven't really been succesful at it) with no real quality people available we're gonna need to look somewhere else for help. Which means either a trade or through the draft.
There may not be any marquee names like a Steve Hutchinson out there, but Im sure some proven veterans will be available. There always are.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:30 PM    (permalink
 
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Originally Posted by locseti
Address OL in free agency, we've wasted enough draft picks on Olinemen and have a bunch of young Olinemen that can maybe learn from some proven vets. i hope we dont draft any Olinemen
that's a great idea in principle but who do we go after? Where are the stud lineman that are FA's this year? There aren't any, so while the idea may be sound (even though we haven't really been succesful at it) with no real quality people available we're gonna need to look somewhere else for help. Which means either a trade or through the draft.
Eric Steinbach will be available.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Vespian - chew on these OL names that are slated to be FA's next year.

Max Starks, OT Steelers (starting tackle for a super bowl champion, 6'8 337lbs)
Leonard Davis, OT Arizona Cardinals (mountain of a man)
Mike Gandy, OT Buffalo Bills (relaitvely young, proven blocker for Mcgahee)
Roman Oben, SD
Shane Locklear, SEA
Floyd Womack, SEA
Todd Steussie, STL
Eric Steinbach, CIN
Jordan Black, KC
Chris Gray, SEA

All these names I've listed are unrestricted free agents except for Locklear and Starks. All these names would also be upgrades.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locseti
Vespian - chew on these OL names that are slated to be FA's next year.

Max Starks, OT Steelers (starting tackle for a super bowl champion, 6'8 337lbs)
Leonard Davis, OT Arizona Cardinals (mountain of a man)
Mike Gandy, OT Buffalo Bills (relaitvely young, proven blocker for Mcgahee)
Roman Oben, SD
Shane Locklear, SEA
Floyd Womack, SEA
Todd Steussie, STL
Eric Steinbach, CIN
Jordan Black, KC
Chris Gray, SEA

All these names I've listed are unrestricted free agents except for Locklear and Starks. All these names would also be upgrades.
The only nameon there who is worthwhile is Eric Steinbach. I would love to stick him at LG next to Gallery and get rid of Sims' massive contract. Other than that, those guys are pretty pedestrian.
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Old 11-11-2006, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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Starks and Davis are big veterans that have talent. Gandy is by no means an elite player, but he is a solid starter. Oben is a seasoned vet. Steinbach will cost a pretty penny, but it would be worth it. And Locklear is a solid starter as well. The rest are certainly pedestrian players, but IMO would be an upgrade over our current starters. The point is, we have to do something come offseason, cause our guys are not getting it done.
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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Davis might re-find his groove after being moved back inside to guard. I'd definitely give him a shot.
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Scott Wright
As I mentioned in my blog the other day it's kind of crazy that the Raiders o-line is so bad because they have invested draft picks there, including a lot of high ones. So if you ask me the problem then comes down to either coaching or scouting. I am inclined to say coaching isn't the problem because they have had two coaching staffs with the same problem and now there are Hall of Fame o-linemen trying to whip them into shape. That leaves poor scouting as the reason for me...
Great players do not necessarily great coaches make.

We never should have let Aaron Kromer get away.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by locseti
Starks and Davis are big veterans that have talent. Gandy is by no means an elite player, but he is a solid starter. Oben is a seasoned vet. Steinbach will cost a pretty penny, but it would be worth it. And Locklear is a solid starter as well. The rest are certainly pedestrian players, but IMO would be an upgrade over our current starters. The point is, we have to do something come offseason, cause our guys are not getting it done.
Starks was benched. He's washed up. As is Roman Oben.
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Old 11-11-2006, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Davis might re-find his groove after being moved back inside to guard. I'd definitely give him a shot.
He and Steinbach are the only guys to whom I would give any amount of money. But only to play offensive guard. Both of them would be fine additions, but with Kevin Boothe playing so well, I can't see us grabbing two of them. We've got McQuistan who may or may not be in the process of being groomed to play RT.

On a side note, does anyone know where Aaron Kromer is right now?
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Old 11-11-2006, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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i know this is way off topic but...do any of you guys who still play football have the cutters gaunlet gloves?
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by locseti
Starks and Davis are big veterans that have talent. Gandy is by no means an elite player, but he is a solid starter. Oben is a seasoned vet. Steinbach will cost a pretty penny, but it would be worth it. And Locklear is a solid starter as well. The rest are certainly pedestrian players, but IMO would be an upgrade over our current starters. The point is, we have to do something come offseason, cause our guys are not getting it done.
Starks was benched. He's washed up. As is Roman Oben.
The Steelers also benched Mcfadden, who they just signed to a fat multiyear extension...Does this mean he's washed up? And Starks is back starting. They're having a bad year, just like us, Cowher's just seeing what he has.
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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I dont see how he can be washed up after just 3 yrs in the league...Anyway, dont mean to argue, GO RAIDERS - BEAT DENVER!!
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:29 AM    (permalink
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Dammit, i'm not getting the game on tv.
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:35 AM    (permalink
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Dammit, i'm not getting the game on tv.
heh, the raiders can't even get televised in california :)
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillaraiderfan
Dammit, i'm not getting the game on tv.
heh, the raiders can't even get televised in california :)
well, the 2 times the games were televised in la; they won. so..
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:54 AM    (permalink
locseti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillaraiderfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillaraiderfan
Dammit, i'm not getting the game on tv.
heh, the raiders can't even get televised in california :)
well, the 2 times the games were televised in la; they won. so..
Wait, Im from Norcal, but im in LA for the wknd and am planning on watching the game tomorrow while my girl goes out for lunch w/ friends...is the game gonna be blacked out?? I had to sit at the bar tonite and watch my beloved Ducks get served up a slice by USC. Needless to say I was surrounded by a bunch of Trojan fans...I need to salvage my wknd by watching the Raiders play, say it aint so!
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Old 11-12-2006, 02:59 AM    (permalink
slightlyaraiderfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locseti
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillaraiderfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillaraiderfan
Dammit, i'm not getting the game on tv.
heh, the raiders can't even get televised in california :)
well, the 2 times the games were televised in la; they won. so..
Wait, Im from Norcal, but im in LA for the wknd and am planning on watching the game tomorrow while my girl goes out for lunch w/ friends...is the game gonna be blacked out?? I had to sit at the bar tonite and watch my beloved Ducks get served up a slice by USC. Needless to say I was surrounded by a bunch of Trojan fans...I need to salvage my wknd by watching the Raiders play, say it aint so!
I checked the guide earlier, and it wont be shown on regular tv.
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