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Old 05-17-2007, 04:09 PM    (permalink
SubNoize
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ok so you compare Jake Plummers #s considering Walkers best year was in GB, why don't we compare Collins to Favre in the same season... you did this to favor yourself, which you've accused me of. Also Plummer didn't start the whole season, do we factor in Cutler's #s?

http://www.footballdb.com/players/jordala01. 3.8 average for last 2 years...
4.2 career average, again consider the line play since he's been here...

Article on improving line:
http://www.contracostatimes.com/raiders/ci_5832281

30 something RBs were snatched up quickly in free agency see Lewis, Green... so yeah people do still pick them up and expect them to perform at a higher level...

Droughns avg 4.0 yards a carry that season and is a lifetime 3.9 compared to Jordans 4.2... so 3.8 to 4.0 behind horrible lines a .02 difference...

Bell was also outgained by the back Rhodes split with...Joseph Addai, both rookies... Rhodes also carried an offense in a SB, when it was sputtering... He must be devestated Bell put up bigger #s. I also think you can get an idea of how somebody plays when you've watched game footage of him as a HS, College player and Pro and realize he makes the same mistakes. Living in the state he is from, we got a lot of Bell propoganda and a lot of people showed his weaknesses in our state HS football forum that he still displays.

Henry has improved how??? He's been like an elevator going up and down. He's never surpassed his 2002 season, as has often not even started. He's also played a whole 1 full season since being drafted...

I wasn't ranking them as a unit, I was ranking them as individuals...Also have added different players since those inept seasons... so yeah throw that garbage out.

Again, I'm supposed to believe because you think you know more than me??? (Hardly)... you're trying to prove that I was being homer when I ranked the Raiders last in a few categories and placed them higher in some based on the players they will be fielding, notice WILL, as in assuming the "future". We can bring up these past stats all day, but my ranking were based on the personnel ongoing, the line cannot get worse, plain and simple and the running game will improve with a healthy Jordan splitting carries with Rhodes. Both are better suited in a split role as both are not feature guys, but together I see them as a better combo than Henry/Bell...

There's also no way you can argue the point I made about Walker being #3 on some teams and #2 on others, actually you've said nothing about it...
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Old 05-17-2007, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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I have this argument with this kid I know that says that Frank Gore is better than Steven Jackson. Should I back down or keep supporting Jackson? Wanna give me some facts?
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Old 05-17-2007, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Look up the facts yourself. Compare last year stats of each, career stats, situational stats. Using facts can only help your argument, the best being facts of most recent relevance.
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Old 05-17-2007, 04:54 PM    (permalink
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Look up the facts yourself. Compare last year stats of each, career stats, situational stats. Using facts can only help your argument, the best being facts of most recent relevance.
Well its hard to get facts through considering he is a 49er fan and a canes fan. Not a bandwagon either.
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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1.LT
2.Champ Bailey
3.Larry Johnson
4.Shawne Merriman
5.Antonio Gates
6.Derrick Burgess
7.Marcus McNeil
8.Tony Gonzalez
9.Jamaal Williams
10.Nnamdi Asomugha
11.Philip Rivers
12. Dre Bly
13.Jay Cutler
14.Luis Castillo
15.Brian Waters
16.DJ Williams
17.Quintin Jammer
18.Michael Huff
19.Javon Walker
20.Warren Sapp
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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Droughns avg 4.0 yards a carry that season and is a lifetime 3.9 compared to Jordans 4.2... so 3.8 to 4.0 behind horrible lines a .02 difference...
4.0-3.8=.2
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Old 05-17-2007, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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yeah I noticed, but didn't care to edit...thanks though.
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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1. LaDainian Tomlinson
2. Champ Bailey
3. Larry Johnson
4. Shawne Merriman
5. Nnamdi Asomugha
6. Antonio Gates
7. Jamal Williams
8. Derrick Burgess
9. Javon Walker
10. Brain Waters
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Old 05-17-2007, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
in 2004 brandon stokely caught 10 tds and surpassed every other number porter has ever put up in spite of being the 3rd or 4th option in the colts passing attack. not that i'd compare the offenses, but quoting a single statistic is ridiculous. moreso considering jerry porter was the starter for 14/16 games in 2002, suggesting that even if he was the #3 WR, oakland commonly ran 3 WR sets.

in 2004, if you extrapolated those stats over the year, porter would've ended up with 70.85 catches (at 4.42 per game), 1229 yards (at 76.85 per game) and 18 tds (at 1.14 per game). if we extrapolate the best 7 game stretch for javon walker in 2004 (it's only fair if we're going to take porter's best seven games instead of looking at the season as a whole), he had 41 catches, 726 yards and 6 touchdowns. significantly besting porter's numbers in all but a single category. again, i can fudge statistics just as well as you guys can if i don't like what they show. if stats don't help your argument (and they don't), you might try finding something that does.
I have little interest in getting in a pissing contest over who the better wideout is. Athletically, the two are very close. Statistically, Walker is better, but that means little for the upcoming year, especially when Porter has been a cog in a broken machine for years now.

You're welcome to proclaim Walker grand poobah of wideouts for all I care.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.
IMO Burgess is much better then Jared Allen.
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Old 05-17-2007, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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IMO Burgess is much better then Jared Allen.
Yea, I left out Burgess which was probably a mistake, but I also left out Shaun Phillips, who is similar to Burgess (Burgess may be a little better though). I do think Allen is much more effective against the run. The AFC West has some very good front 7 players.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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Yea, I left out Burgess which was probably a mistake, but I also left out Shaun Phillips, who is similar to Burgess (Burgess may be a little better though). I do think Allen is much more effective against the run. The AFC West has some very good front 7 players.
No offense, but outside of Merrimen, no one has more sacks the past two NFL seasons than Burgess. Burgess also plays the strongside and is actually quite good against the run.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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Burgess imo, is a poor man's dwight freeney. He needs to improve against the run. He's not bad in that area, but he's not that good either.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Burgess imo, is a poor man's dwight freeney. He needs to improve against the run. He's not bad in that area, but he's not that good either.
I think you're underselling him. He gets fantastic leverage and has held down the strongside of the line very well for someone his size.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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No, I agree, he's got amazing hip movement and is brilliant I think laterally, but what he needs to do is stop trying to bowl over bigger tackles and gaurds against the run which I've seen him do.
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Old 05-17-2007, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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No, I agree, he's got amazing hip movement and is brilliant I think laterally, but what he needs to do is stop trying to bowl over bigger tackles and gaurds against the run which I've seen him do.
I think that's more him controlling his gap and not opening up a hole. Most defensive ends aren't asked to evade their blocking and take out a runner unless he passes within arms length.
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Old 05-17-2007, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I know that, but it might be a scheme thing as well, he's not been strong enough at the point of attack to control his gap, a lot of the time.

I'm not trying to knock the guy because I think he's a very good player, but I think that the defensive coordinator at times needs to rethink how he's used against the run when the offensive team is simply charging right at him and hammering him out of his gap and making a hole.
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Old 05-18-2007, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by San Diego Chicken View Post
Just for fun, I rated the top 10 players in the division -

1) LaDainian Tomlinson
2) Champ Bailey
3) Shawne Merriman
4) Larry Johnson
5) Nnamdi Asomugha
6) Jared Allen
7) Luis Castillo
8) Philip Rivers
9) Javon Walker
10) Brian Waters

Thoughts? Anyone want to take my 10 into a 20? I left the TE's out halfway on purpose.


1. LT
2. Gates
3. Bailey
4. LJ
5. Gonzo
6. Merriman
7. Asoalphabetsoup
8. Jamal Williams
9. Derrick Burgess
10. Rivers

I guess a little Charger heavy but these guys pretty much represent the elite at their positions. LT, Gates, Bailey, Burgess, Merriman and Jamal are the best at what they do. Asomughua or whatever and Rivers are rising stars at crucial positions, and you can't leave out LJ or Gonzalez.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I know that, but it might be a scheme thing as well, he's not been strong enough at the point of attack to control his gap, a lot of the time.

I'm not trying to knock the guy because I think he's a very good player, but I think that the defensive coordinator at times needs to rethink how he's used against the run when the offensive team is simply charging right at him and hammering him out of his gap and making a hole.
No its true. Hes not the greatest at holding at the point of attack. A lot of our d-linemen had trouble.
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Old 05-18-2007, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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1. LT
2. Champ
3. Lights Out
4. LJ
5. Gates
6. Asomugha
7. Gonzalez
8. McNeil
9. Burgess
10. Phillips
11. Henry
12. Javon walker
13. Rivers
14. Morrison
15. Bly

or something
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my scent?...like making love to a lumberjack
<TACKLE> i will ngata give you a bj raji
<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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Originally Posted by Hermstheman83 View Post
What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to go w/ PMD on this way and say w/e you're the all mighty NJX so you'll shut up even though you've said nothing significant (Why compare 6th seasons now when it was best before?)... but I'd like to point out where you called me moronic for arguing this long and say you've responded to everything I've written...( Also never said Walker wasn't the best #1 in west( See Below), just said he's average.) Would be #3 behind Boldin and Fitzgerald, Wayne and Harrison, Williams and Johnson... so on...

1.LT
2.Champ Bailey
3.Larry Johnson
4.Shawne Merriman
5.Antonio Gates
6.Derrick Burgess
7.Marcus McNeil
8.Tony Gonzalez
9.Jamaal Williams
10.Nnamdi Asomugha
11.Philip Rivers
12. Dre Bly
13.Jay Cutler
14.Luis Castillo
15.Brian Waters
16.DJ Williams
17.Quintin Jammer
18.Michael Huff
19.Javon Walker <---First WR on list...
20.Warren Sapp

Last edited by SubNoize : 05-18-2007 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 05-18-2007, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I'm a homer alright, that's why when I ranked the division I picked the Chargers and Broncos ahaed of Oak, instead of being like "OMG were going to be 10-6 or 11-5... I see Oak closer between 6-8 wins "IF" the offense improves, which from I've read it should. Damn my homerism just because I'm not impressed by Javon Walker or Travis Henry/Mike Bell, disliking 3 rival team members, I'm a homer alright. Get a clue guy, if anything you've gone to great lengths of homerism by defending your guys so hard... Your facts are skewed toward your argument and have changed, we went from best to 6th season, you take Henrys stats behind good O-lines and compare them to Jordans behind crappy o-lines. what an argument, but again to stroke your ego, you can be right...feel better big guy?
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Old 05-18-2007, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i have no idea how you think gates is a better or more important player than bailey, who is clearly the best player at a far more important position.
Well, it's probably because Gates is the only consistent aerial threat for the number 1 scoring offense in the league. LT was putting up crazy numbers for years, but the Bolts weren't winning any games, until Gates developed. His arrival turned the Chargers' O into one of the fiercest in the league. His presence was one of the main reason Rivers led us to the most wins in franchise history in his first year as a starter.

You can throw away from Champ, but when Gates is actually part of the gameplan (sometimes he just got no looks from Cam for whatever reason), nobody can cover him. He's faster and more agile than any linebacker, and he's bigger and more powerful than any DB. except Polamalu (Fight on!).

Also because Gates wrecked Champ this year in the end zone.

It's a one slot difference, not the upset of the century. Hopefully this will provide you with an idea. It's just an opinion, after all.
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Old 05-18-2007, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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I'd def. rate Bailey over Gates based on much of what NJX said. Also would like to add the fact that people gameplan around Bailey when playing the Broncos, and I think people would gameplan more for LT than Gates, you just more so put faith in your LBs and secondary...
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