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Old 02-15-2012, 08:34 AM    (permalink
leroyisgod
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
We all know that won't happen too. I'm just saying, the emphasis needs to be placed back on defense.

As for me saying Romo needing all those things... that was a direct response to the people claiming that we need to surround Romo with high expenditures in FA and 1st round pick usage on OFFENSE. I was reguritating what was being said here. Those weren't my feelings. I'm fine with using picks outside of Round 1 on OL. I'm fine with not getting Nicks in FA. But everytime I say that, I get the reasons WHY WE SHOULD.

People saying we need to get Nicks and DeCastro are essentially telling me that Romo NEEDS to have those things in order to do his job. That's adds more fuel to my fire that Romo isn't ALL THAT, if he needs to have those caliber of players in order to do his job.
It's not about Romo needing it, it's about the offense needing it. There's no way we can continue on with the interior line we currently have.
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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All this talk about Spencer staying for nearly 9 mill makes me want to choke a *****.
I agree as well. On paper Spencer didn't look all that bad, but the numbers don't do him justice.
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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I guess my perspective has more to do with what's going to be the greatest impact on the team?

Decastro/Kirkpatrick/Jenkins vs. Spencer's replacement.(Ingram or Upshaw maybe are probably the closest to a blue chip right?)

I'm moreso asking...throw out names, who else do you guys see stepping in day one for another hole that needs filling? Again..I'm not advocating signing him longterm...but IMO, there are positions of need greater than OLB on the team. That's what I'm weighing against...not necessarily whether or not we can find an upgrade for Spencer, because I"m sure we can, I just feel he's not bad enough to where it's necessary to create another hole.
I'm not sure it's one single player that will step in day one and be Spencer's full time replacements. We're gonna see a replacement by committee until either a rookie or Butler takes ownership over the position. As for names, I'd like to take a shot at Curry in the 2nd round if he's there. Take a G or CB with our 1st round pick and then grab Curry.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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What he is though...is an above average LB'er in the NFL. Another fact.

Who do you guys get to replace him?
A fact? I disagree. YOu and I havea diff definition of above average.
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Old 02-15-2012, 09:36 AM    (permalink
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A fact? I disagree. YOu and I havea diff definition of above average.
We're parsing words, semantics dear friend...semantics....how about slightly above average? A little better than a JAG? Not quite great, but better than 50% of the OLB's in the league?
Strange you ignored my entire post to pick out that.

Again, give me some scenarios where the Boys can create that hole, while still filling the other holes..I'd love to hear them. That's not sarcasm either. I'd love to hear them.

Spencer isn't a bad OLB. Whatsoever. For people to say he is...well, I'd say they're only worried about sacks.

Again, re-read what I've discussed. I don't think Spencer is deserving of 8 million a year. I think Dallas can very well find a replacement for him and get similar production. The only thing I'm attempting to say here is...Do you create another hole to get similar or lesser production?

Again, you'll get no qualms from me, replacing Spencer is a priority...Just isn't at the top of that list of priorities in my opinion. I'd rather them use the draft to fill more pressing needs...

He's just always been...ONE STEP too late...let's see if he can get home with a better DL in front of him?, or without T.New or Alan Ball being instant completions. Or with the offense actually being able to run the ball with a decent O-line and give the defense a rest here and there.

Basically...there's a number of ways this offseason shakes out...and there's a few scenarios where I don't mind franchising Spencer for a year, and filling that hole next year instead of this one....See what I"m saying?
He's not T. New bad(who Dallas paid 9 million for last year, I believe)....He's not Keith Brooking bad....Not Phil Costa bad....

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Old 02-15-2012, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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I've never said he's terrible, but he is the epitome of JAG, IMO. Certainly not someone you would give $9 million to spare us to death.
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Certainly not someone you would give $9 million to spare us to death.
Yea me either.

But.....thereinlies the problem.

What do you propose the Boys do? I'm curious.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Yea me either.

But.....thereinlies the problem.

What do you propose the Boys do? I'm curious.
There are several options. Obviously there is the big one that is probably not very likely, but I'll list them here.

FA:
1. Super Mario - Not very likely
2. Mathis - Not a true OLBer but a huge upgrade as a passs rusher
3. Avril - Not a true OLBer but has the skill set.
4. Abraham - Wouldn't commit huge money, but is an upgrade.
5. Brooks
6. Sergio Kendle - Interesting name

Those are some FA names that would at least give you similar results and most would carry a much cheaper price tag.

Draft:
1. Upshaw - I know some think he's a Spencer clone, but he has a high motor.
2. Mercilus - Huge upside, but bust potential there.
3. Irvin - Might be the most explosive pass rusher in the draft
4. Curry
5. Cam Johnson

Those are a minimum of around 10 options to Spencer.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Yea me either.

But.....thereinlies the problem.

What do you propose the Boys do? I'm curious.
What I sense from your POV is that you are not comfortable in taking any risks in improving the position. That's not a crime. It's certainly a fair assessment. But at the same time, you cannot sit there and say with conviction that there are no other options. Just because you are afraid of the unknown doesn't make the unknown a worse option.

In turn, we cannot sit here and tell you that there ARE better options, because we would be purely speculating as well.

The points that you made that intrigued me were using Spencer as a stop-gap to a better solution in 2013. But I feel that projection has too many holes in it. What if we're picking in at the bottom of Round 1? Out of range to nab an elite level OLB prospect? Right now at 14, we are certainly within range to choose from the cream of the crop.

I do imagine that a better secondary and DL would improve things for Spencer... and that is a thought that I can invest in. I just don't know how much it will improve himi. But a better year for Spencer after being franchised means that he'll be looking for a way bigger pay day in 2013.

If you believe in Spencer then we sign him to an affordable deal this year and live with the consequences. If you truly and honestly believe that he'll perform better with a better supporting cast, then that's what you do. Sign him to a long term affordable deal now. Because if he does improve, then you'll no longer want to keep him for just 1 year and after the good season he has he'll look for a big pay day. It'll cost us more in the future than it would be today. So I ask you, how much do you REALLY believe in Spencer? If you REALLY believe in him, then screw the franchise tag option and just give him a deal. If he continues being the same player, then you're at least paying him fair price. The biggest drawback is the possibility that we don't ever get the pass rush we want because we invested in Spencer.

If you don't really believe in Spencer then, DON'T Franchise him. If you are unsure if he'll ever deliver the kind of pressure that we want opposite of Ware, then let the guy go and start the new search NOW. Even if there is risk that the player we draft will be a bust, it's STILL worth the investment to try, imo, than to continue on the path of mediocrity.

So imo, it boils down to how much you believe in Spencer. If you believe in him, then give him a new long term deal. If you don't, then let him go. The last thing you do is Franchise him. You'll either end up paying more or end up prolonging the process in replacing him another year.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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What I sense from your POV is that you are not comfortable in taking any risks in improving the position. That's not a crime. It's certainly a fair assessment. But at the same time, you cannot sit there and say with conviction that there are no other options. Just because you are afraid of the unknown doesn't make the unknown a worse option.

In turn, we cannot sit here and tell you that there ARE better options, because we would be purely speculating as well.

The points that you made that intrigued me were using Spencer as a stop-gap to a better solution in 2013. But I feel that projection has too many holes in it. What if we're picking in at the bottom of Round 1? Out of range to nab an elite level OLB prospect? Right now at 14, we are certainly within range to choose from the cream of the crop.

I do imagine that a better secondary and DL would improve things for Spencer... and that is a thought that I can invest in. I just don't know how much it will improve himi. But a better year for Spencer after being franchised means that he'll be looking for a way bigger pay day in 2013.

If you believe in Spencer then we sign him to an affordable deal this year and live with the consequences. If you truly and honestly believe that he'll perform better with a better supporting cast, then that's what you do. Sign him to a long term affordable deal now. Because if he does improve, then you'll no longer want to keep him for just 1 year and after the good season he has he'll look for a big pay day. It'll cost us more in the future than it would be today. So I ask you, how much do you REALLY believe in Spencer? If you REALLY believe in him, then screw the franchise tag option and just give him a deal. If he continues being the same player, then you're at least paying him fair price. The biggest drawback is the possibility that we don't ever get the pass rush we want because we invested in Spencer.

If you don't really believe in Spencer then, DON'T Franchise him. If you are unsure if he'll ever deliver the kind of pressure that we want opposite of Ware, then let the guy go and start the new search NOW. Even if there is risk that the player we draft will be a bust, it's STILL worth the investment to try, imo, than to continue on the path of mediocrity.

So imo, it boils down to how much you believe in Spencer. If you believe in him, then give him a new long term deal. If you don't, then let him go. The last thing you do is Franchise him. You'll either end up paying more or end up prolonging the process in replacing him another year.
Pretty well stated. And it's mostly true.

I honestly don't have an answer. I think it's a little bit of both, I think with upgrades in the secondary and the DL, that Spencer will undoubtedly play better...Potentially even have a probowl type season.

On the flipside, he could be exactly what he has been.

There was a discussion a few pages back regarding how people rated different positions, and I forget the poster who said it...but they said that all positions are equal. I don't subscribe to that thought process. I think by taking care of the weakest links first, it will potentially raise the play of the better players.

And again, that's what it comes down to for me. I don't think Spencer is a bad enough player that he's got to be replaced at the expense of losing out on other positions of need.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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What I sense from your POV is that you are not comfortable in taking any risks in improving the position. That's not a crime. It's certainly a fair assessment. But at the same time, you cannot sit there and say with conviction that there are no other options. Just because you are afraid of the unknown doesn't make the unknown a worse option.

In turn, we cannot sit here and tell you that there ARE better options, because we would be purely speculating as well.

The points that you made that intrigued me were using Spencer as a stop-gap to a better solution in 2013. But I feel that projection has too many holes in it. What if we're picking in at the bottom of Round 1? Out of range to nab an elite level OLB prospect? Right now at 14, we are certainly within range to choose from the cream of the crop.

I do imagine that a better secondary and DL would improve things for Spencer... and that is a thought that I can invest in. I just don't know how much it will improve himi. But a better year for Spencer after being franchised means that he'll be looking for a way bigger pay day in 2013.

If you believe in Spencer then we sign him to an affordable deal this year and live with the consequences. If you truly and honestly believe that he'll perform better with a better supporting cast, then that's what you do. Sign him to a long term affordable deal now. Because if he does improve, then you'll no longer want to keep him for just 1 year and after the good season he has he'll look for a big pay day. It'll cost us more in the future than it would be today. So I ask you, how much do you REALLY believe in Spencer? If you REALLY believe in him, then screw the franchise tag option and just give him a deal. If he continues being the same player, then you're at least paying him fair price. The biggest drawback is the possibility that we don't ever get the pass rush we want because we invested in Spencer.

If you don't really believe in Spencer then, DON'T Franchise him. If you are unsure if he'll ever deliver the kind of pressure that we want opposite of Ware, then let the guy go and start the new search NOW. Even if there is risk that the player we draft will be a bust, it's STILL worth the investment to try, imo, than to continue on the path of mediocrity.

So imo, it boils down to how much you believe in Spencer. If you believe in him, then give him a new long term deal. If you don't, then let him go. The last thing you do is Franchise him. You'll either end up paying more or end up prolonging the process in replacing him another year.
^ This.

My personal opinion? If he's willing to resign for an affordable deal then bring him back. If he tries to command top dollar then he can sign elsewhere.

Resigning Spencer and drafting someone in the 2-5 rounds to build into a starter would be more than satisfactory IMHO. If we don't resign him I still want a veteran to start next season as I am not at all confident in asking a rookie to not only fulfill Spencer's "setting the edge/run defense" role but also asking him to be a dynamic pass rushing threat.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I mean the Franchise Tag seems to be the worst option to me. If it costs $9M to do that, then that takes up nearly half of our $20M in cap space. There are so many other things I can imagine doing with that kind of money.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Looks like we might go LB early, per Walter's football

The Cowboys have had an obvious need at the cornerback position since the beginning of the 2011 season. It would not be surprising to see them make a run at some free agent corners and/or potentially use their first-round draft pick on the position. Aside from corner, the Cowboys need help at safety and on the interior of their offensive line, but interestingly, sources have told WalterFootball.com that the Cowboys are putting immense effort into scouting the linebacker position.

Dallas has two impending free agents in Bradie James and Anthony Spencer. Some reports have stated that Spencer could be slapped with the franchise tag despite being inconsistent since entering the league out of Purdue. The former first-rounder would carry an expensive price tag of $8.8 million for the 2012 season, and that doesn't equate to his production of six sacks last season. Dallas may look to the second day of the draft to add an edge rushing linebacker. Some candidates include Marshall's Vinny Curry, Oklahoma's Ronnell Lewis and Troy's Jonathan Massaquoi. The Cowboys could keep Spencer around for another season and develop a draft pick to replace him.

Behind James, the Cowboys have 2011 second-round pick Bruce Carter. Aside from Carter and Sean Lee, Dallas could use more depth at inside linebacker. Sources have said they are showing a lot of interest in mid-round inside linebacker prospects. Some players who might be fits include North Carolina State's Audie Cole, TCU's Tank Carder and Nevada's James-Michael Johnson.

While most predictions have Dallas going hard at the secondary and offensive line with their early picks in the 2012 NFL Draft, free agency could change that, and a position that Dallas could turn their attention to is linebacker. That would become especially apparent if they decide to let both Spencer and James sign with other teams.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Say we choose to give Spencer a 3yr deal. What is the market going to be like for a player like Spencer? With not a lot of 3-4 OLB's out there, he might bet more money than what he truly deserves. I'm not terribly opposed to an affordable 3 year deal and still draft someone in the first 2 rounds as his eventual replacement.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Looks like we might go LB early, per Walter's football

The Cowboys have had an obvious need at the cornerback position since the beginning of the 2011 season. It would not be surprising to see them make a run at some free agent corners and/or potentially use their first-round draft pick on the position. Aside from corner, the Cowboys need help at safety and on the interior of their offensive line, but interestingly, sources have told WalterFootball.com that the Cowboys are putting immense effort into scouting the linebacker position.

Dallas has two impending free agents in Bradie James and Anthony Spencer. Some reports have stated that Spencer could be slapped with the franchise tag despite being inconsistent since entering the league out of Purdue. The former first-rounder would carry an expensive price tag of $8.8 million for the 2012 season, and that doesn't equate to his production of six sacks last season. Dallas may look to the second day of the draft to add an edge rushing linebacker. Some candidates include Marshall's Vinny Curry, Oklahoma's Ronnell Lewis and Troy's Jonathan Massaquoi. The Cowboys could keep Spencer around for another season and develop a draft pick to replace him.

Behind James, the Cowboys have 2011 second-round pick Bruce Carter. Aside from Carter and Sean Lee, Dallas could use more depth at inside linebacker. Sources have said they are showing a lot of interest in mid-round inside linebacker prospects. Some players who might be fits include North Carolina State's Audie Cole, TCU's Tank Carder and Nevada's James-Michael Johnson.

While most predictions have Dallas going hard at the secondary and offensive line with their early picks in the 2012 NFL Draft, free agency could change that, and a position that Dallas could turn their attention to is linebacker. That would become especially apparent if they decide to let both Spencer and James sign with other teams.
Love love love this. Get me some young athletes at ILB, not these old retread vets who couldn't cover an AARP member in a phone booth. One of the most over looked things that has help this defense back.

As for Spencer, you guys need to remember that the organization knows that they are doing. They aren't going to franchise Spencer with no reason behind it. If they do, they know they'll still have enough money to get who they want. They won't cripple free agency for Anthony Spencer. You have to believe that.

Also, people are underrating spencer. He's a solid player who won't lose you games. Now, I want an upgrade just like everyone else, but what if the person we replace him with becomes a huge liability to the defense? That could be a serious problem.

Franchising spencer isn't the end of the world. It's not what I would do, but they would have a reason for it. We'd still have the money for a few good free agents.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I was listening to Rich Gannon on Sirius over lunch and he made a good point about our secondary this past year. He said that it appeared one of the biggest issues was the lack of communication and coverage calls being made too late. I agree with his statement that Ryan should have scaled it back some last year. Maybe with an entire off-season he can implement his entire defense better.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Love love love this. Get me some young athletes at ILB, not these old retread vets who couldn't cover an AARP member in a phone booth. One of the most over looked things that has help this defense back.

As for Spencer, you guys need to remember that the organization knows that they are doing. They aren't going to franchise Spencer with no reason behind it. If they do, they know they'll still have enough money to get who they want. They won't cripple free agency for Anthony Spencer. You have to believe that.

Also, people are underrating spencer. He's a solid player who won't lose you games. Now, I want an upgrade just like everyone else, but what if the person we replace him with becomes a huge liability to the defense? That could be a serious problem.

Franchising spencer isn't the end of the world. It's not what I would do, but they would have a reason for it. We'd still have the money for a few good free agents.
What makes you believe that? All this team does is extend mediocre players that we drafted while ignoring quality FA upgrades.

Sorry, I don't blindly follow the idea that the Cowboys brass always knows what it's doing.

Stop being scared of life without Anthony Spencer. He's a career underwhelmer who has never lived up to expectations. Playing across from Demarcus Ware has been his biggest blessing. He's not an elite OLB, so don't pay him like one. Franchising him like he's a Top 5 OLB is another joke in the long line of jokes that this franchise makes year in and year out.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Say we choose to give Spencer a 3yr deal. What is the market going to be like for a player like Spencer? With not a lot of 3-4 OLB's out there, he might bet more money than what he truly deserves. I'm not terribly opposed to an affordable 3 year deal and still draft someone in the first 2 rounds as his eventual replacement.
This, I think this would be a great move...I think this would be the best method to take.

I want a replacement for Spencer just like everyone else. I hope nobody thinks that I'm in the thinking that we can't do better. I just don't think he's as bad as people are making him out to be...and there's much more important places we need to fixing.

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Old 02-15-2012, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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I was listening to Rich Gannon on Sirius over lunch and he made a good point about our secondary this past year. He said that it appeared one of the biggest issues was the lack of communication and coverage calls being made too late. I agree with his statement that Ryan should have scaled it back some last year. Maybe with an entire off-season he can implement his entire defense better.
He did scale it back...actually.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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He did scale it back...actually.
So did Wade.

At some point we'll stop blaming the coaches and realize that the talent just isn't there defensively to complete.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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What makes you believe that? All this team does is extend mediocre players that we drafted while ignoring quality FA upgrades.

Sorry, I don't blindly follow the idea that the Cowboys brass always knows what it's doing.

Stop being scared of life without Anthony Spencer. He's a career underwhelmer who has never lived up to expectations. Playing across from Demarcus Ware has been his biggest blessing. He's not an elite OLB, so don't pay him like one. Franchising him like he's a Top 5 OLB is another joke in the long line of jokes that this franchise makes year in and year out.
You know what, this post just gave me a revelation.

It isn't Anthony Spencer at all. He's fine. Re-sign him. It's the down 3 that's the problem. Just look at the other 3-4 defense around the league. Do any of them have both OLB's getting 12+ sacks? the answer is no.

Look no further than the 49ers. They had aldon smith on one side get 14, and Ahmad Brooks on the other side get 7. On our team, demarcus got 19.5 and spencer got 6. Yet there pass rush was not a problem at all. You know why? Because they had a big NT and Justin Smith at DE. That is our problem. Sure it's great if you can get two demarcus ware's getting 15 plus sacks, but that just doesn't happen.

So Demarcus had 5 more sacks than aldon smith, and spencer and ahmad brooks were basically equal. Also, Spencer had 4 forced fumbles (one which won the redskins game) and Brooks only had 1. Spencer also had more QB hurries. So what's the problem...? The problem is the down 3.

Wow. I've shocked no one have ever brought this up before. Look at all the other 3-4 OLB's and look at the 2nd best pass rushers production.. they are all in the 5-8 sack range.

Re-sign spencer everybody, he ain't the problem.

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Old 02-15-2012, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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So did Wade.

At some point we'll stop blaming the coaches and realize that the talent just isn't there defensively to complete.
Hahahahaha... THAT'S what I've been saying this whole time.

Amen brother.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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You know what, this post just gave me a revelation.

It isn't Anthony Spencer at all. He's fine. Re-sign him. It's the down 3 that's the problem. Just look at the other 3-4 defense around the league. Do any of them have both OLB's getting 12+ sacks? the answer is no.

Look no further than the 49ers. They had aldon smith on one side get 14, and Ahmad Brooks on the other side get 7. On our team, demarcus got 19.5 and spencer got 6. Yet there pass rush was not a problem at all. You know why? Because they had a big NT and Justin Smith at DE. That is our problem. Sure it's great if you can get two demarcus ware's getting 15 plus sacks, but that just doesn't happen.

So Demarcus had 5 more sacks than aldon smith, and spencer and ahmad brooks were basically equal. Also, Spencer had 4 forced fumbles (one which won the redskins game) and Brooks only had 1. Spencer also had more QB hurries. So what's the problem...? The problem is the down 3.

Wow. I've shocked no one have ever brought this up before. Look at all the other 3-4 OLB's and look at the 2nd best pass rushers production.. they are all in the 5-8 sack range.

Re-sign spencer everybody, he ain't the problem.
Welcome to the party. You've finally arrived. We've been talking about it for a long time. All you needed to do was open your eyes.

This is why I've been high on Brockers at 14. This is why I am high on Fangupo and any NT in FA. Yes, I am not too thrilled with Poe and Ta'amu nevertheless, I have mocked Ta'amu to us in Round 2 in previous mocks. IMO, neither justify thier draft position.

Resigning Spencer is fine... the cost is the big question. If we can get Ahmad Brooks or Robert Mathis for cheaper, then that's the route I'd rather go. I'm just not on board with franchising Spencer and paying him basically the same salary as Ware.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Welcome to the party. You've finally arrived. We've been talking about it for a long time. All you needed to do was open your eyes.

This is why I've been high on Brockers at 14. This is why I am high on Fangupo and any NT in FA. Yes, I am not too thrilled with Poe and Ta'amu nevertheless, I have mocked Ta'amu to us in Round 2 in previous mocks. IMO, neither justify thier draft position.

Resigning Spencer is fine... the cost is the big question. If we can get Ahmad Brooks or Robert Mathis for cheaper, then that's the route I'd rather go. I'm just not on board with franchising Spencer and paying him basically the same salary as Ware.
If we don't get a true NT it won't matter. Brockers would be useless after thanksgiving when Ratliff has no legs left for the part of the season that actually matters.

If this team goes into the season with Ratliff at NT, we might as well just concede to be 8-8 (if that) and find something else to do on Sundays.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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If we don't get a true NT it won't matter. Brockers would be useless after thanksgiving when Ratliff has no legs left for the part of the season that actually matters.

If this team goes into the season with Ratliff at NT, we might as well just concede to be 8-8 (if that) and find something else to do on Sundays.
Well I don't think anyone is hoping that we don't get some kind of help there, so I'm not sure why you're preaching that.

That said, Ratliff will never completely stop playing NT. At least that's my realistic take on the situation. I'm sure Rob will mix up the looks plenty to confuse offenses. Having a true NT will be great, no doubt, but if you're expecting a full time switch for Ratliff, then I think you're fooling yourself.
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