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Old 03-17-2012, 12:28 PM    (permalink
CDCB14
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Originally Posted by yanksknicks View Post
Konz at 14? Oh dear!

Konz of the 3 reps and injuries?
Not at 14. In a trade down or up from our second rounder. They won't make that reach.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I'm not high on Konz at all. I think that since he's the consensus #1 rated C and he played at Wisconsin that he's getting more credit than he deserves. He's a mid to late 2nd round pick based off film and measurables. Not in the Mangold, Mack, Pouncey class level.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Been hitting tapes REAAALLLY hard since our free agency on guys I think we *might* target at 14.

My impressions?

Courtney Upshaw: I have no idea why he is rated as a top 15 prospect. I hadn't watched a ton of 'Bama film this year but after focusing on him I'm baffled.

Another writer summed it up what I saw far better than the words I can find.

Quote:
I’ll just start by saying it: I think Upshaw is very overrated. His biggest strength, versatility, is negated by the fact that he doesn’t play any single position that well. At 6’2″, 271 pounds, he’s too large to play as an inside backer. In today’s pass-happy NFL, I would send Barry Church out there at inside linebacker before Upshaw.

Upshaw’s height, however, is a major concern as an edge rusher. With an arm length just a hair over 31 inches, Upshaw will have major problems fighting off larger offensive tackles. I see some issues already in college, as Upshaw has trouble getting off of blocks. This leads to very poor run defense when offenses run right at him.
Adding to that though WOW does he have amazing play recognition, elite motor, and a "good" set of pass rushing moves. He isn't explosive and his pass rushing reminds me of Almost Anthony with the aforementioned problems with larger tackles.

My Opinion at 14: Pass


Melvin Ingram: ELITE athlete. To some up a couple play sequences...

Ingram is playing on the inside of the line. Ball is snapped. Immediately he is double teamed. Ingram uses his strength and splits the two and tallies a sack. Same game he lines up outside baits on a power move and BLOWS by the offensive tackle and almost sacks a QB rolling left (ball is thrown away).

His strength/size allows him to an almost dominant run defender.

My one major issue would be his playing the snap count. He is CONSISTENTLY the last, or one of the last, guys to move off the snap. It completes negates his explosiveness. If we draft him and Ware can teach how to master the art. Look. Out. He can explode out of his stance without a problem.

My Opinion at 14: Draft


David DeCastro: He's been discussed to death. To put it simply he is has the best mechanics of ANY guard I have scouted. He isn't an elite athlete so is certainly a "safe" prospect in that he has an immensely high floor but also a low ceiling to go along with it. What you see is what you get.

While I see DeCastro's strength and anchor as "good" he certainly doesn't have elite anchoring ability. He doesn't get blown off the ball or anything to that extent but he can definitely use some bulking up and his frame supports it.

My Opinion: Draft


Quinton Coples: Call me biased but after watching him dominant in previous years I struggled to understand how many posters are down on him this year. While I understood the talk of him being purely a 4-3 DE or 3-4 DE I thought of him as a dominant player. The tape?

Yep. He still has his elite strength and bull rush to go with it. It doesn't matter if he lined up on the guard, tackle, center whoever was across from him on his bull rush was going backwards. On two consecutive plays he showed off his strength and IMHO his play recognition ability.

Play 1: Lined up over OT. Ball is snapped he immediately exploded into the tackles chest and drives him backwards. He releases inside and records a strip-sack of the unexpected QB.

The very next play.

Play 2: Lined up over OT. Ball is snapped and the OT comes out of his stance and immediately presses him. Coples holds his ground and sheds his blocker as the ball carrier reaches him. Play is over ball carrier tackled for a loss.

Now the one MAJOR question I have is that while he could flat out out-muscle guys in college will that be the case in the NFL? He relies VERY heavily on his bull-rush or swim and if his strength is negated he doesn't have a real counter.

I also only see him as a DE in our scheme.

My opinion: Draft


Tons more tape to hit but I can briefly say that Kuechly has some warts but would be a draft from me. Mercilus I think will end up in the top 15 but would be a Pass from Dallas. And lastly........some surprising (at least to me) early looks at other guys.

- Boykins will go higher than I think his tape says he should. (Main negative being he is best playing press even though he doesn't have the strength for the scheme. Anytime I see him play off / zone it is nowhere near as "must draft" as I thought. I still like him A LOT at 45 but the talk of him being a late 1st now is high for me.

- Gilmore will go lower than I think his tape says he should. I think him and Boykins should be switched in terms of draft position. Zone, man, press, off it doesn't matter he looked clean throughout. He has the strength press and comes off blocks well to make the tackle on the ball carrier. I don't see him as a punt returner in the next level (see mediocre) and no one will mistake him for a ball-hawk as he has bricks for hands.


Typed all this fast so my apologies for grammatical errors and nonsensical parts. :)
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Boykins should be there in the 2nd for us. Him busting his leg at the Senior Bowl should drop him even to the late 2nd or early 3rd.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Boykins should be there in the 2nd for us. Him busting his leg at the Senior Bowl should drop him even to the late 2nd or early 3rd.
I do like his value later in the 2nd. He's a steal in the 3rd. Just hated the talk of him being 1st round caliber.
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm not high on Konz at all. I think that since he's the consensus #1 rated C and he played at Wisconsin that he's getting more credit than he deserves. He's a mid to late 2nd round pick based off film and measurables. Not in the Mangold, Mack, Pouncey class level.
when i saw his bench numbers at the combine i wrote him off
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter

Eagles and free-agent G @evanmathis69 reached agreement on a 5-year deal, $25 million deal, including $7 mil gtd. Mathis back in Philly.
This makes the Livings deal look sooooo much worse. I would take that deal 99 times out of 100.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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This makes the Livings deal look sooooo much worse. I would take that deal 99 times out of 100.
That's a deal I take 100 times out of a 100. While he did take a discount to stay there (he wanted to stay all along), it does just go to show how stupid we were on Livings. We could've waited till after the draft. Livings wouldn't have been signed by anyone. Would've been a minimum wage signing.

This is possibly one of the worst OL decisions this team has made and they have made a TON through out history.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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when i saw his bench numbers at the combine i wrote him off
I wrote him off when I saw him flopping around and falling down all over the place on the field.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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That's a deal I take 100 times out of a 100. While he did take a discount to stay there (he wanted to stay all along), it does just go to show how stupid we were on Livings. We could've waited till after the draft. Livings wouldn't have been signed by anyone. Would've been a minimum wage signing.

This is possibly one of the worst OL decisions this team has made and they have made a TON through out history.
You guys overrate Mathis. He had one good year at age 30. For all you know he could go back to being a JAG, and he's small. He's 300 pounds. The Cowboys want to get bigger up front. That's the bottom line. I'm not defending the Livings signing because I didn't want it either, but I trust that Callahan sees something and at least he brings some beef.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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I love the overreactions on here. Signing Livings isn't even close to being up there with some of our worse OL moves. We could give Marco Rivera a $10M signing bonus again.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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I wrote him off when I saw him flopping around and falling down all over the place on the field.
never watched him closely i tend to stay away from watching big 10 games
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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I love the overreactions on here. Signing Livings isn't even close to being up there with some of our worse OL moves. We could give Marco Rivera a $10M signing bonus again.
yeah that one was bad but that one was one the few you can't blame on jerry, put that one on parcells along drafting barbie carpenter over tamba hali, and not drafting steven jackson for julius jones and the legendary jacob rogers
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Courtney Upshaw: I have no idea why he is rated as a top 15 prospect. I hadn't watched a ton of 'Bama film this year but after focusing on him I'm baffled.


Adding to that though WOW does he have amazing play recognition, elite motor, and a "good" set of pass rushing moves. He isn't explosive and his pass rushing reminds me of Almost Anthony with the aforementioned problems with larger tackles.
thats a little harsh on upshaw, he's well coached and is a good but not great pass rusher, now i wouldnt draft him if i were the cowboys but not for the reasons u stated
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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That's a deal I take 100 times out of a 100. While he did take a discount to stay there (he wanted to stay all along), it does just go to show how stupid we were on Livings. We could've waited till after the draft. Livings wouldn't have been signed by anyone. Would've been a minimum wage signing.

This is possibly one of the worst OL decisions this team has made and they have made a TON through out history.
Hyperbole much?
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Hyperbole much?
ALWAYS.

Gets the best reactions. If I really discussed the failures of our attempts at getting better along the OL, it would turn out to be the longest post this forum ever had in it's ENTIRE HISTORY!!!!1111
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:57 AM    (permalink
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I can't help but wonder if that cap penalty ultimately cost us a top OL in FA.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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I can't help but wonder if that cap penalty ultimately cost us a top OL in FA.
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Adding to the teams’ frustration, we’re told, is that the deal to take away the cap money was brokered between NFLPA executive DeMaurice Smith and the NFL Management Council Executive Committee, without a full vote of NFLPA leadership or NFL ownership. The chairman of the CEC is Giants owner John Mara, whose team benefits directly from the removal of cap room from two of his chief division rivals.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...over-cap-mess/

This makes me even more mad.It's bad enough that there were no "written" rules broken and other teams committed the same "crime" without being punished, but this is crazy. How do you put a punishment in the hands of someone with DIRECT competition with the teams involved to be part executioner?

I hope Jerry Jones takes this to court.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:39 AM    (permalink
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I can't help but wonder if that cap penalty ultimately cost us a top OL in FA.
By most estimates we still have about 10 million even with the penalty and signings. I wouldn't say the penalty negated our ability to do much of anything. One side effect would be if the cap doesn't push up as high as it should we could suffer in 2 or 3 years from the guaranteed contracts.

Jerry has also heavily hinted towards this being water under the bridge and he won't be pursuing litigation from what I've read. The 'Skins are still "evaluating their legal options".

Mara is a douche and just like every other owner in that he'll pinch every penny and press every advantage.

*sits and waits for a few Giant's fans to spew about how great of a person Mara is...*
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Manningham left the Giants and signed with the 49ers.

I can't help but love this off-season because of the somewhat "changing of the guard" for both teams. Over the past 5 seasons or so the Giants really have had our number and both teams have really had more or less the same players.

Two Cowboys killers of theirs (Jacobs, Manningham) have left and we drastically changed the team this year in free agency. It's a reason for optimism at least. No more just knowing that Eli would kill Bradie James and Brooking all game over the middle.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:51 AM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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I am probably leaning DeCastro and Poe right now at 14. Both could go as high as 8 or so, and if they make it to our pick it might very well be bpa. I think there is less risk associated with DeCastro, but guys the size of Poe aren't supposed to move the way that he can and he is a guy who can change the entire complexion of a defense and make everyone else better.


I also really like Boykins in the 2nd. But I'm having a hard time going with any other option in the 1st, I need to find some back-up options if they are gone.


Don't see OLB in the 1st with Spencer on the tag, at least this year. ILB is out, CB is out, no Safety worth it, WR is out, RB is out, and so is QB. So we are down to the trenches on both sides, anything else is highly unlikely.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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I am probably leaning DeCastro and Poe right now at 14. Both could go as high as 8 or so, and if they make it to our pick it might very well be bpa. I think there is less risk associated with DeCastro, but guys the size of Poe aren't supposed to move the way that he can and he is a guy who can change the entire complexion of a defense and make everyone else better.


I also really like Boykins in the 2nd. But I'm having a hard time going with any other option in the 1st, I need to find some back-up options if they are gone.


Don't see OLB in the 1st with Spencer on the tag, at least this year. ILB is out, CB is out, no Safety worth it, WR is out, RB is out, and so is QB. So we are down to the trenches on both sides, anything else is highly unlikely.
Couldn't agree more. Even in a trade down it should a trench player.

At 14 options should be DeCastro, Cox, Poe, Brockers in that order although I want nothing to do with Poe or Brockers. Way too much bust potential, and with the free agency we just had I want a player who I know will be good even if he doesn't have all pro potential. Just give me good players, all we really need is a solid draft now. Can't have a 2009 type disaster, and Poe and Brockers have just as much potential to flame out as they do of becoming quality starters.

In a trade down, options should be Konz, Zeitler, Glenn, Still, and Worthy in that order. I don't like Glenn, Still, or Worthy that much, but they are probably better than what we currently have so whatever.

We just need to get more athletic along the DL. The Coleman's and Spears' of the world don't do anything, and they aren't even perfect run defenders either. A guy like Cox along with more playing time for Lissemore would give this defense a real pass rush, especially on 3rd downs. Couple that if hopefully much improved secondary play and a good coverage linebacker in Carter, and our defense is drastically improved.

As for the OLB situation, one thing that could be a possibility is switching to the 4-3 if we can't keep Spencer and/or find a viable replacement. Same can be said for DeMarcus aging/possibility of getting hurt. 4-3 DE's who can rush is a way easier to find than a DeMarcus Ware type 3-4 OLB. We aren't going to find another DeMarcus. That is probably my number 1 under-the-radar future concern.

EDIT: The one reason I can't see us taking DeCastro is because of the money we just gave to Livings and Bernedeau. They are all pure guards. If we pick DeCastro it means one of them isn't starting, and that would be a lot of money for a back-up. Granted Bernedeau is only like 2 million a year, but i'd probably rather have him starting Livings. I really don't get Livings contract. That is why center makes a lot more sense to me, but maybe they like Arkin there and don't address interior OL that early.

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Old 03-18-2012, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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I don't think the Spencer tag means we're crossing off OLB in the 1st at all. Supposedly the coaching staff LOVED Aldon Smith last year and were ready to pull the trigger if he lasted to our pick, and if they were looking to replace Spencer last year with a 1st Rounder then chances are they're looking to do the same again this season. The franchise tag just buys them an extra year and serves as insurance if they can't nab the guy they're targeting at 14, at least that's what I'm thinking since they didn't feel comfortable enough with him to agree to a longterm deal this off-season.

With the moves Garrett has made thus far it tells me that he looks at things through a longterm perspective, ignoring OLB because Spencer and Butler are under contract for this upcoming season is a classic short term approach and doesn't seem to fit into his philosophy. If they are high on Mercilus, who shares many parrallels with Aldon Smith, I can easily see him being the pick.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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I don't think the Spencer tag means we're crossing off OLB in the 1st at all. Supposedly the coaching staff LOVED Aldon Smith last year and were ready to pull the trigger if he lasted to our pick, and if they were looking to replace Spencer last year with a 1st Rounder then chances are they're looking to do the same again this season. The franchise tag just buys them an extra year and serves as insurance if they can't nab the guy they're targeting at 14, at least that's what I'm thinking since they didn't feel comfortable enough with him to agree to a longterm deal this off-season.

With the moves Garrett has made thus far it tells me that he looks at things through a longterm perspective, ignoring OLB because Spencer and Butler are under contract for this upcoming season is a classic short term approach and doesn't seem to fit into his philosophy. If they are high on Mercilus, who shares many parrallels with Aldon Smith, I can easily see him being the pick.
Agreed up until you picked Mercilus :P I don't see him as capable on the strong-side. He doesn't sit well against the run and WAAAY too often he lets blockers get to his body. Both can fixable technique flaws so moot to an extent but his one year production is cause for concern. Need someone who can defend the run. If Ingram falls to 14 he's about the only prospect in the draft I'd rank equally with DeCastro in terms of "best player available".
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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I'm not high on Konz at all. I think that since he's the consensus #1 rated C and he played at Wisconsin that he's getting more credit than he deserves. He's a mid to late 2nd round pick based off film and measurables. Not in the Mangold, Mack, Pouncey class level.
Konz is the #1 rated C because of his size and tape. I've heard him called a ball of clay....hard to find centers with that size now a days.
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