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Old 01-15-2007, 02:00 PM    (permalink
JJJ888
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All this talk about another OLB obviously hinges on Ellis' recovery...anyone heard anything?
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano
We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
You never can have enough pass rushing OLB's in the 3-4 defense. Look at what happened to us this year when Ellis went down with an injury. Carpenter only came into his own the last 2 games, which while it was great, it was too late.

While i say this about OLB's, I still wouldn't select one in the first few rounds though. You are correct that we need to address our DE problem we currently have.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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I still favor going CB / WR with the first pick in the draft.

As for whether anyone you draft with the first round will make an immediate impact, most likely not. Most teams that are in the playoffs at the end of the year do not (unless by the case of losing a FA or by injury) have a rookie that steps in from day one and starts. That's the benefit of having a very good team.

The only positions that would make an immediate impact would be pass rushing specialists, or RB.

I do not expect us to draft a RB in the first round (although, if the right guy fell, I certainly wouldn't be upset) and I don't think a true pass rushing specialist would necessarily fall to us where we pick.

You have to look at what a player CAN BECOME not what they are on day one. Take Bobby Carpenter for instance. His last game against the Seahawks was by far his best game. In fact, that game bordered on Dominant. I hope he continues that next year. I hoped he'd be more like that earlier in the year, but he developed slower than that. Ultimately, he played his best when it mattered.

I think CB or WR are positions that we are the thinnest at, with no apparent replacement. LT - at least McQuistan is supposed to have the skills to replace Adams. Who do we have in training if Newman goes down? What about if TO is gone and Glenn goes down? I don't think we have anyone that you can absolutely say is the heir apparent. Hurd looked ok at times, and Austin definitely has the size / speed ratios you want.

I want speed, speed, speed, in the first round. Maybe even in round 2. I want size in round 3-5 and BPA in the last two.

If we draft a Kicker I will banish myself from this board voluntarily. I'm telling you it will NEVER happen. I mean NEVER happen.

Also, my semi-sleeper / mid round pick that I like the most right now is Wright, the RB out of Fresno State. He will be a very good back in the NFL.

Most overrated player in the draft.....Jamarcus Russell. He will make bonehead decisions for his whole playing career and whatever team drafts him will learn it eventually.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JJJ888
All this talk about another OLB obviously hinges on Ellis' recovery...anyone heard anything?
About a week ago I remember reading that his recovery was on schedule. It's impossible to tell at this time how well he'll be recovered when training camp comes around, but no setbacks is a good sign at this point.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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That would be awesome if we could get Donnie Edwards. Class player and leader in the 3-4.
I like it as well. He's not that strong against the run in my opinion, but his other strengths more than make up for that.
And how old is he?


--


I thought we were trying to step away from age?
Yeah but this is not a move that is permanent. This is a guy that knows the 3-4 intimately. He's a fiery leader, something we desperately need, and he can still play. If it's a cheap deal, I'm all for it.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Modano
We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
You never can have enough pass rushing OLB's in the 3-4 defense. Look at what happened to us this year when Ellis went down with an injury. Carpenter only came into his own the last 2 games, which while it was great, it was too late.

While i say this about OLB's, I still wouldn't select one in the first few rounds though. You are correct that we need to address our DE problem we currently have.
I totally agree.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Heres some food for thought. Donnie Edwards is gonna be available. Now, the one thing that is missing from the front 7 is a dominant guy who can go sideline to sideline and excell in pass coverage in the middle right?

So Donnie Edwards is perfect. He's the perfect compliment inside to James. He can drop in coverage and has the speed to chase rbs out of the backfield. That would allow James to do what he does best, which is hammer the RB in the run game. Plus, he provides veteran leadership, something this defense needs more of. Plus he could be a great teacher to Carp if Carp eventually moves inside.

It makes sense to me. It would be a cheap signing too. What do you guys think?
At this point, I would think it is VERY unlikely. In fact, Bradie would actually be more likely to be benched for him, and that isn't happening. Ayodele was very good for us, and he actually does pretty well in coverage, too.

No, the only way that we bring anyone in at ILB is if we decide to give up on one of our two guys there, which is not a situation that is in the cards.

That said, if we could get him in and he was willing to ride the pine for a very modest contract.....ok, I can buy that. But that is even more unlikely than us benching James or Ayodele. I wouldn't mind having a guy with his talents around for our nickel package, though.


But, I want to sound off on SD here for a sec. Is everyone going to freak their gords now that they lost? Are people going to cry in the streets for them to clean house and start over? That team choked in a much more epic sense than our beloved 'Boys did. It was blatantly obvious who the best team on that field was, and they threw it away by committing more turnovers in ONE GAME than they did over a 7 game stretch during the season. And these weren't forced turnovers either. These were idiotic, stupid, bonehead plays that no playoff caliber team makes. Just absolutely mind boggling the way that they fell apart. And where was Lights Out? Didn't see him make one meaningful play all game. I guess it's a lot harder to get to the QB when you have offensive lineman blocking you as opposed to RBs and TEs, huh?

I simply can't believe the way they gave up that game. All I can think of is Parcells' favorite saying : "Dumb players do dumb things". They looked like a bunch of dumb players out there to me.
i know i will get roasted for this but imo the talent difference between s.d. and n.e. was no greater than the talent difference between the boys and seattle. and as far as bonehead plays a playoff caliber team doesnt make do i dare say romo, glenn. we gave that game away and watching the seattle/chicago game makes it that much more frustrating. we could/should be playing n.o. this weekend. oh well....btw the talk is martys going to get fired.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I wholeheartedly agree with LSUAlum on Russell. He's so overrated.

The man threw into double and triple coverage his whole career. Everyone just goes "wow, look at that arm!". I like to say, "woah, look at that decision". He will be a disappointment in the NFL, and I'll laugh if Oakland takes him over Quinn.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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I am all up for Speed in first two rounds.

We need game breakers.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano
We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
I 100% agree. About everything.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Modano
We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
I 100% agree. About everything.
Ware is the only pressure guy on this team.....if you stop him you stop the defense.....another linebacker will provide more pressure and stop a heavy reliance on one guy to pressure the qb'z
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense
Heres some food for thought. Donnie Edwards is gonna be available. Now, the one thing that is missing from the front 7 is a dominant guy who can go sideline to sideline and excell in pass coverage in the middle right?

So Donnie Edwards is perfect. He's the perfect compliment inside to James. He can drop in coverage and has the speed to chase rbs out of the backfield. That would allow James to do what he does best, which is hammer the RB in the run game. Plus, he provides veteran leadership, something this defense needs more of. Plus he could be a great teacher to Carp if Carp eventually moves inside.

It makes sense to me. It would be a cheap signing too. What do you guys think?
At this point, I would think it is VERY unlikely. In fact, Bradie would actually be more likely to be benched for him, and that isn't happening. Ayodele was very good for us, and he actually does pretty well in coverage, too.

No, the only way that we bring anyone in at ILB is if we decide to give up on one of our two guys there, which is not a situation that is in the cards.

That said, if we could get him in and he was willing to ride the pine for a very modest contract.....ok, I can buy that. But that is even more unlikely than us benching James or Ayodele. I wouldn't mind having a guy with his talents around for our nickel package, though.


But, I want to sound off on SD here for a sec. Is everyone going to freak their gords now that they lost? Are people going to cry in the streets for them to clean house and start over? That team choked in a much more epic sense than our beloved 'Boys did. It was blatantly obvious who the best team on that field was, and they threw it away by committing more turnovers in ONE GAME than they did over a 7 game stretch during the season. And these weren't forced turnovers either. These were idiotic, stupid, bonehead plays that no playoff caliber team makes. Just absolutely mind boggling the way that they fell apart. And where was Lights Out? Didn't see him make one meaningful play all game. I guess it's a lot harder to get to the QB when you have offensive lineman blocking you as opposed to RBs and TEs, huh?

I simply can't believe the way they gave up that game. All I can think of is Parcells' favorite saying : "Dumb players do dumb things". They looked like a bunch of dumb players out there to me.
i know i will get roasted for this but imo the talent difference between s.d. and n.e. was no greater than the talent difference between the boys and seattle. and as far as bonehead plays a playoff caliber team doesnt make do i dare say romo, glenn. we gave that game away and watching the seattle/chicago game makes it that much more frustrating. we could/should be playing n.o. this weekend. oh well....btw the talk is martys going to get fired.
Not that crazy if folks understand exactly what you wrote. I agree.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Staubach12
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Originally Posted by Modano
We don't need another LB to rush the passer.. The problem is the d-line. We have Ellis and Carpenter (who was a beast against Seattle)..
Moving Carpenter inside will be a mistake, imo. We've already made a mistake moving him around and forcing him not to have a truly position.. It affected is transition to the pro.. When he started playing outside he developed into a good player.. He will be a huge part of our defense, give him this offeason a you'll see..

If we want more pressure we need pushing from the d-line. If Spears, Canty, Hatcher etc can't step up we can draft someone like Alama-Francis. But we don't need another OLB... We lack a dominant NT, and we lack pressure from our DE. If Canty can play as he did late in the season we'll solve a part of the problem.. A lot dependes on how Spears and Hatcher will play next season..
I 100% agree. About everything.
Ware is the only pressure guy on this team.....if you stop him you stop the defense.....another linebacker will provide more pressure and stop a heavy reliance on one guy to pressure the qb'z
BP always talks wanting D players who win their match-ups. We did not have enuff of those types of players -- may develop in the future with SPears, Canty, et al -- so finding an edge OLB is not nuts.

To someone's point, can never have enuff 3-4 OLB with passrushing skills. Premium in today's NFL.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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I still favor going CB / WR with the first pick in the draft.

As for whether anyone you draft with the first round will make an immediate impact, most likely not. Most teams that are in the playoffs at the end of the year do not (unless by the case of losing a FA or by injury) have a rookie that steps in from day one and starts. That's the benefit of having a very good team.

The only positions that would make an immediate impact would be pass rushing specialists, or RB.

I do not expect us to draft a RB in the first round (although, if the right guy fell, I certainly wouldn't be upset) and I don't think a true pass rushing specialist would necessarily fall to us where we pick.

You have to look at what a player CAN BECOME not what they are on day one. Take Bobby Carpenter for instance. His last game against the Seahawks was by far his best game. In fact, that game bordered on Dominant. I hope he continues that next year. I hoped he'd be more like that earlier in the year, but he developed slower than that. Ultimately, he played his best when it mattered.

I think CB or WR are positions that we are the thinnest at, with no apparent replacement. LT - at least McQuistan is supposed to have the skills to replace Adams. Who do we have in training if Newman goes down? What about if TO is gone and Glenn goes down? I don't think we have anyone that you can absolutely say is the heir apparent. Hurd looked ok at times, and Austin definitely has the size / speed ratios you want.

I want speed, speed, speed, in the first round. Maybe even in round 2. I want size in round 3-5 and BPA in the last two.

If we draft a Kicker I will banish myself from this board voluntarily. I'm telling you it will NEVER happen. I mean NEVER happen.

Also, my semi-sleeper / mid round pick that I like the most right now is Wright, the RB out of Fresno State. He will be a very good back in the NFL.

Most overrated player in the draft.....Jamarcus Russell. He will make bonehead decisions for his whole playing career and whatever team drafts him will learn it eventually.
Look who emerged from their cave! Wow, dude, I was beginning to wonder if we had lost you permanently. Good to hear from you, though. This thread has been going downhill fast since, oh....around early December. It would be nice if you could contribute a little more, we could definitely use as much input from good posters as we can get. The best way to exemplify the way this thread has been lately is in asking the question : "If two morons argue on a message board, and no one pays any attention, did it really happen?"

Anyhow, I was going to ask you if Russell had won you over yet. I remember you being extremely negative about him in the preseason, and I thought that maybe his play lately had been enough, but apparently not. It's never a good sign when the fans of a guys own team think that he is overrated and lousy in general. Bad times.

Also, I agree with you a bit at CB, but definitely not at WR. TO will be back for certain, and as hungry as he's ever been. Glenn has finally settled into the perfect role for him as an explosive deep threat and compliment to a true #1 WR. Not only that, but he has now played basically two full seasons without suffering a major injury. Even if one guy gets hurt, both Crayton and Hurd are able fill-ins, as they demonstrated in the Arizona game. Not only that, we can always play more 2 TEs and emphasis the underneath and seam passing routes. We will be fine. The future there is a concern, but if the FO and coaching staff feel confident in the ability of Hurd and/or Austin to develop into good players down the road, then you have to stick to your guns. That said, if we can get a premiere prospect on the cheap, as in Ginn or Jarrett falling down to 22, or a Meachem, Rice, Bowe type in the 2nd, then I would not complain.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Wow, dude, I was beginning to wonder if we had lost you permanently. Good to hear from you, though. This thread has been going downhill fast since, oh....around early December. It would be nice if you could contribute a little more, we could definitely use as much input from good posters as we can get. The best way to exemplify the way this thread has been lately is in asking the question : "If two morons argue on a message board, and no one pays any attention, did it really happen?
LOL. Who was it that wrote about arrogance earlier and not liking name calling? Just too much.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Bobby Carpenter is the answer on the other side of the linebacking group. I dont think it is a huge need with Kevin burnett still developing and Ellis coming back from injury.

We need a gamebreaker on offense, like a ted ginn type.
We need another cover corner on defense, and more depth on the defensive line.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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DMW - fair enough on the WR front. But that's based on TO being here. If he's still here next year then drafting a WR in round 1 may not be the best idea, if he's gone though, the idea become more feasible.

Not because a 1st round WR will start from day 1, but because of a lack of depth it creates if TO is gone.

The way I've always looked at it based on plays. A first round draft pick at LB / DB / WR / RB gives you plays from day one (ST, as a substitution periodically, etc). A DL gives you a few less, basically just as a substitution. A OL gives you VERY few plays barring injury. That's one of the main reasons they just aren't that valuable as a 1st round pick unless they are penciled in as a starter (which they shouldn't be on a playoff team).

At this point, the most glaring problems on the team are pass rush and safety play. But, sometimes the most glaring problems aren't the ones that you address because the difference between Average and Good is so small. Unlike say QB where the difference between Average and Good is huge. To me, with speed guys like CB and WR - the difference between average and good is pretty high. For that reason, I like the idea of going speed early. In the past I wanted us to go Big early based on the 'planet theory' but I think we have plenty of size right now.

I'm encouraged by what I saw in Bobby Carpenter late and what Hatcher may bring to the table next year also. I am not encouraged by the fact that in the secondary Henry has peaked and stands to only get worse, and Aaron Glenn isn't going to be better next year. Our LB's can all get better, based on their tenure in the league, but half of our DB's are only going to get worse.

OL is a need from a youth point of view at RG, but other than that, I'm ok with the OL.

RB - I would like some one like Brian Westbrook from a versatility stand point. We really don't have a pass catching threat from the backfield that can break long ones. MBIII is reliable, but isn't going to scamper for a 65 yard screen pass.

I actually think ILB is a bigger need than NT at this point. I was extremely disappointed with Bradie James. Some of this could be scheme, some could be talent. I don't know for sure what the problem is with the Defense, but I do know there is a problem. If a ILB in round one helps solve that, I'll take one thanks.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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I still believe OG and S are biggest need. So talk about drafting a WR and CB in the 1st boggles me. They are not huge needs IMO.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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[quote="DMWSackMachine"]Wow, where to begin.

- I'm gonna be the first to say it......Ellis getting hurt is going to end up being a good thing for this team.

see dmw you have made some questionable post before not to mention getting into arguments with other posters. now i will say that i tried way to hard to prove a point, which as it turns out were pointless because nothing presented was good enough anyway. i got carried away and i apoligize to you and all the other posters on this board and will try to be a better poster in the future. this board is too good and informative for the rants that ive been apart of these last few pages and i should have known better. again my apoligies to all and know it will never happen again.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboysforever
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
Wow, dude, I was beginning to wonder if we had lost you permanently. Good to hear from you, though. This thread has been going downhill fast since, oh....around early December. It would be nice if you could contribute a little more, we could definitely use as much input from good posters as we can get. The best way to exemplify the way this thread has been lately is in asking the question : "If two morons argue on a message board, and no one pays any attention, did it really happen?
LOL. Who was it that wrote about arrogance earlier and not liking name calling? Just too much.
I think it's fair to say that DMW and I have both been stating intelligent arguments for quite some time on this board. Some things you have said are well thought out, and some I classify as pipe dreams or otherwise unrealistic ideas. Just because something is broken (i.e. Roy Williams) doesn't mean it's easy to fix (i.e. trade Roy Williams for Shaun Rogers). Things like that don't work in the real world and suggesting them only serves to lessen your credibility.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul
I still believe OG and S are biggest need. So talk about drafting a WR and CB in the 1st boggles me. They are not huge needs IMO.
I know what you mean, but let me try to explain my stance.

Although S might be the most glaring need, drafting one first doesn't always make the most sense.

You have to account for the difference in talent between a 1st round safety and say a 3rd round safety, versus the difference in talent of say a 1st round WR and a 3rd round WR. In some cases you come out on top by taking the S and in some cases you do not. It's not just about what you get with your pick, but what you Don't get by drafting someone else.

Prime example. Suppose Pass rush is our #1 need but we have a future HOF at WR. Suppose with the #8 overall pick we take a DE who is one of the top pass rushers in the draft, instead of taking a WR talent that is available at that point. Is that a good move?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUALUM99
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboysforever
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
Wow, dude, I was beginning to wonder if we had lost you permanently. Good to hear from you, though. This thread has been going downhill fast since, oh....around early December. It would be nice if you could contribute a little more, we could definitely use as much input from good posters as we can get. The best way to exemplify the way this thread has been lately is in asking the question : "If two morons argue on a message board, and no one pays any attention, did it really happen?
LOL. Who was it that wrote about arrogance earlier and not liking name calling? Just too much.
I think it's fair to say that DMW and I have both been stating intelligent arguments for quite some time on this board. Some things you have said are well thought out, and some I classify as pipe dreams or otherwise unrealistic ideas. Just because something is broken (i.e. Roy Williams) doesn't mean it's easy to fix (i.e. trade Roy Williams for Shaun Rogers). Things like that don't work in the real world and suggesting them only serves to lessen your credibility.
LSU, I have no doubt you and DWS are good posters. I am not debating that but I also read your posts, and his, and you are wrong sometimes. For eaxmple, you where calling the OL good and D dominant. DWS was saying Eillis getting injured was for the better and that Rivera was pretty good. Now we can argue the degree to which these are wrong but I think they are just wrong.

So. On the play personnel stuff my one core, non-negotiable position is if you don't accept you have a real big problem then you can never really solve it. Problem identification is the start of a resolution regardless of contracts. Contracts can be structured and restructured and many times we fans don't understand how they worl.

Perfect example is Roy Williams. A few posters here like Roy Williams. They believe that Roy under a new scheme with a "Pro Bowl" FS would flourish like he did in 2003. Even when these individuals are uncomfortable arguing his abilities they say "CONTRACT." Can't make a change so forget it and move on .... Wrong.

Well let us start with contract. Mickey Spagnola just indicated Roy's contract requires a 5.5 MM roster bonus on March. So this makes moving Roy easier if true. Roy's 2006 Salary was 565K. Depending on how the math works it equates to a cap hit less than Vanderjagt if you eliminate Roy or trade him.

Now, if we would like to argue contract at this time. Please. Let us. But facts please. I want facts. Not emotional arguments why Roy is salvagable. Talk analytically about his contrat and the Cap Hit et al....

Now let us talk Performance on the Field and results. Mickey Spagnola's articel says it all on Roy. I listen to lots of analysts and not one outside of Dallas thinks Roy is any good as a SS. To put it in Mike Francesca's words from WFAN in NY -- "He is not any good more than 5 yards from the LOS and even there he is horrible at shedding blocks. Unless he gets a free run at a player he is horrid"

This is why Burress called him an ankle tackler.

He is a SS who can't cover what SS normally cover. He is a SS who at the Point of Attack near the LOS usually gives up his body instead of trying to make a play. He is a SS who is a step slow in zone coverage and takes bad angles. He is defensive in the locker room and is very sensitive to criticism.

I think Roy can play but in a vastly different scheme and as a different player as an OLB.

I think (hope, pray) Roy can transform his body and work very hard to improve fatal inadequacies for a SS.

So given all this. Why is Roy a lock on next year's roster? And even if a lock because of bonus, why is he even a starter?

Instead of killing our FS to cover up for Roy why not find a SS who can play the position better than Roy.

Instead, the topic of discussion is "how do we rescue our lovable #8 pick who in 5 years has proven a disappointment as SS." Scheme, new FS, better pass rush ..... etc.

Anyway, good luck.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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[quote="pocketaces"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
Wow, where to begin.

- I'm gonna be the first to say it......Ellis getting hurt is going to end up being a good thing for this team.

see dmw you have made some questionable post before not to mention getting into arguments with other posters. now i will say that i tried way to hard to prove a point, which as it turns out were pointless because nothing presented was good enough anyway. i got carried away and i apoligize to you and all the other posters on this board and will try to be a better poster in the future. this board is too good and informative for the rants that ive been apart of these last few pages and i should have known better. again my apoligies to all and know it will never happen again.
You might want to fix that to reflect the fact that the Ellis quote was orginally made by me. As is, it is pretty confusing to someone who doesn't know what you are saying.

I know what I said was pretty harsh, but it was not aimed primarily at you. I remember thinking about a year ago that you were mainly a troll who didn't bring much substance to the discussion, but since then you haven't done much to warrant that kind of thought, so don't think I am criticising you for what you've done in the past. Mainly, the point is that if you try to have a discussion with Barney, then you end up looking like a purple dinosaur yourself, that's all. I actually agree with your point of view on the topic of discussion, but you didn't do much to help yourself by leaving out the corresponding links to the quotes you posted. Anyway, it was the kind of thing that drives people away from a message board, and exactly what moderators are supposed to prevent, but I haven't seen much moderation around here lately. Either way, no offense intended....to you. ;)

As for my statement about Ellis, it does look kind of silly now. You have to remember, though. At the time, Bobby wasn't getting any real PT, and the very next game against Indy we had probably our 2nd best pressure performance of the season against the great Peyton Manning. As is, I wouldn't say that it was really THAT bad a thing for us, as it allowed Carpenter to develop, as well as Hatcher, though it did hurt us badly as far as this year's performance went.
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Old 01-15-2007, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboysforever
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSUALUM99
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboysforever
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
Wow, dude, I was beginning to wonder if we had lost you permanently. Good to hear from you, though. This thread has been going downhill fast since, oh....around early December. It would be nice if you could contribute a little more, we could definitely use as much input from good posters as we can get. The best way to exemplify the way this thread has been lately is in asking the question : "If two morons argue on a message board, and no one pays any attention, did it really happen?
LOL. Who was it that wrote about arrogance earlier and not liking name calling? Just too much.
I think it's fair to say that DMW and I have both been stating intelligent arguments for quite some time on this board. Some things you have said are well thought out, and some I classify as pipe dreams or otherwise unrealistic ideas. Just because something is broken (i.e. Roy Williams) doesn't mean it's easy to fix (i.e. trade Roy Williams for Shaun Rogers). Things like that don't work in the real world and suggesting them only serves to lessen your credibility.
LSU, I have no doubt you and DWS are good posters. I am not debating that but I also read your posts, and his, and you are wrong sometimes. For eaxmple, you where calling the OL good and D dominant. DWS was saying Eillis getting injured was for the better and that Rivera was pretty good. Now we can argue the degree to which these are wrong but I think they are just wrong.

So. On the play personnel stuff my one core, non-negotiable position is if you don't accept you have a real big problem then you can never really solve it. Problem identification is the start of a resolution regardless of contracts. Contracts can be structured and restructured and many times we fans don't understand how they worl.

Perfect example is Roy Williams. A few posters here like Roy Williams. They believe that Roy under a new scheme with a "Pro Bowl" FS would flourish like he did in 2003. Even when these individuals are uncomfortable arguing his abilities they say "CONTRACT." Can't make a change so forget it and move on .... Wrong.

Well let us start with contract. Mickey Spagnola just indicated Roy's contract requires a 5.5 MM roster bonus on March. So this makes moving Roy easier if true. Roy's 2006 Salary was 565K. Depending on how the math works it equates to a cap hit less than Vanderjagt if you eliminate Roy or trade him.

Now, if we would like to argue contract at this time. Please. Let us. But facts please. I want facts. Not emotional arguments why Roy is salvagable. Talk analytically about his contrat and the Cap Hit et al....

Now let us talk Performance on the Field and results. Mickey Spagnola's articel says it all on Roy. I listen to lots of analysts and not one outside of Dallas thinks Roy is any good as a SS. To put it in Mike Francesca's words from WFAN in NY -- "He is not any good more than 5 yards from the LOS and even there he is horrible at shedding blocks. Unless he gets a free run at a player he is horrid"

This is why Burress called him an ankle tackler.

He is a SS who can't cover what SS normally cover. He is a SS who at the Point of Attack near the LOS usually gives up his body instead of trying to make a play. He is a SS who is a step slow in zone coverage and takes bad angles. He is defensive in the locker room and is very sensitive to criticism.

I think Roy can play but in a vastly different scheme and as a different player as an OLB.

I think (hope, pray) Roy can transform his body and work very hard to improve fatal inadequacies for a SS.

So given all this. Why is Roy a lock on next year's roster? And even if a lock because of bonus, why is he even a starter?

Instead of killing our FS to cover up for Roy why not find a SS who can play the position well.

Anyway, good luck.
Ok, let me begin by saying that our OL is good and our Defense has been dominant. The first part of the season our defense played as good if not better than 30 other teams in the NFL.

Our offense was the third best scoring team in the NFL. You don't do that with a bad offensive line UNLESS you have Jim Brown at RB. Since our RB's are Average / Good you can't say that our OL was anything less than good. We didn't give up alot sacks, our 3rd down conversion rate was good and our QB was a 1st year starter. I'm sorry, but there are far more facts to support my theory that the OL was good than your theory that they weren't.

As for Roy Williams. Your original suggestion was to trade him for Shaun Rogers. Not only does his contract preclude that but so does Rogers'. Now, to suggest we cut him to save his roster bonus due in March because the net cap hit would be the same as keeping him does have some merit. As much as I think Roy Williams could improve as a player, I do not think he's bad enough to out and out cut him. Could his deal be restructured, well maybe. But you do realize that the player has to AGREE to do that right? It's just not up to the team. Now, if you're Roy Williams, and you are (despite your opinion on whether it's warranted or not, it is a fact) a 4 time pro-bowl player, would you call the Cowboys' bluff to cut you if you don't restructure? Do you not think that to Roy Williams he could get cut, then go sign another deal with those credentials? I sure do, so where exactly is the leverage the Cowboys have?

Again, just because you can cut the guy, doesn't mean it makes sense. By your own calculations it cost the same to cut him or keep him. So why not keep him? He's certainly better than 16 other safeties in the NFL. If the average safety is what you are comparing him against AND keeping him vs. cutting him is a net zero gain, then it's obvious that the best thing to do is to keep him.

Restructuring would be the best solution for the Cowboys, however Roy Williams' has nothing to gain from that. I don't see any bargaining power the Cowboys have to restructure him at this point.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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