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Old 02-03-2014, 05:43 PM    (permalink
pocketaces
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...and what will you say if Murray misses 2-4 games next season just like he has the last 2 years and we miss the playoffs by 1 game again?

Missing him HAS made a negative impact which cannot be ignored. Are you ok with that risk for another season?

I think a healthy Murray or a RB committee that doesn't lose steam in case of injury to one starter would've put us in a situation where Week 17 WASN'T win or go home. Dunbar and Randle are nice complimentary backs but neither are workhorse backs.

3 straight 8-8 seasons make me want to be SURE that our running game is sound. When you throw in the fact that Murray will be a FA, my mind is starting to think open thoughts... Future replacement?... Trade him now??? Other???

I am a fan of Murray and I would like to bring him back for cheap, but how can we expect big things of him AND expect him to come cheap? Those 2 things go against each other.

Drafting one next year is no certainty to work. How is Trent Richardson looking right now?

The only way I think it works is if Murray can be effective in a time share NOW. If nothing changes and Murray goes for over a thousand yards and a Pro Bowl appearance again, then I think he's seeing big money signs for sure...If not us, then someone else. If we keep him, we're going to end up overpaying for the RB position.

But if Murray goes for 650-700 yards and no Pro Bowl, stays healthy all year in a time share... I think we win all around! Win in keeping him healthy. Win in having a backup in case he goes down. Win being able to keep his value down, production steady AND hopefully that means we have more W's in the Win column (because we don't look like a different team w/out him). Not to mention keeping his stats down make him more affordable to keep.

But this only happens if we draft another workhorse back. I'm not talking about scatbacks or 3rd down backs. I'm talking about guys who are tough enough to replace Murray as a full time back. Tre Mason... Andre Williams... off the top of my head.

I think if we do this now, then we have leverage at the negotiating table when it comes to sit down time with Murray and his new deal. Without it, Murray comes to the table with ALL the ammo. You tell me which one is better for helping us manage our cap space.
Using that logic we need to draft a QB because what happens if Romo goes down, a CB because Mo cant stay healthy, an ILB because Lee cant stay healthy, a WR for Miles, ect ect. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and hope their fortunes change. If we didnt need so many other positions, then I would say sure, but our coaching staff needs to win THIS year and if they dont fill the roster with starters,(mainly on D) then they are gone and they know it. IMO there are more pressing needs than another RB but maybe thats just me. Still no answer on JJ keeping the players he wants? Lol. Its ok. We both know the answer and it makes the other argument silly. I get you dont want to admit it, ;)
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Old 02-03-2014, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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If Murray runs for 1000+ and makes the Pro Bowl again, maybe thats enough to get us in the playoffs and saves some jobs. I dont think him missing a game or 2 mattered this year anyway. He was rarely used correctly and when our D is giving up 30+ hes not changing the outcome.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Using that logic we need to draft a QB because what happens if Romo goes down, a CB because Mo cant stay healthy, an ILB because Lee cant stay healthy, a WR for Miles, ect ect. Sometimes you have to roll the dice and hope their fortunes change. If we didnt need so many other positions, then I would say sure, but our coaching staff needs to win THIS year and if they dont fill the roster with starters,(mainly on D) then they are gone and they know it. IMO there are more pressing needs than another RB but maybe thats just me. Still no answer on JJ keeping the players he wants? Lol. Its ok. We both know the answer and it makes the other argument silly. I get you dont want to admit it, ;)
Are you that dense? We're talking about it now! Drafting Murray's replacement or getting his value down IS the answer to your question. Isn't this the reason for this discussion??? What else is there to talk about?

Dez and Tyron aren't going anywhere. Everybody and their mom knows that. Lee, Scandrick and Church are already resigned long term. WTF? Why did you even mention them as guys Jerry would have difficulty resigning if we already resigned them? Claiborne isn't a FA until 2016.

The only name worth talking about that you mentioned was Murray.

-----

And I've also learned that whenever you say "Using that logic..." or "That's like saying..." It's always going to be some ridiculous relationship that doesn't make sense.

If your point is that we need to address QB, CB, ILB early you won't hear me freak out. In fact, getting Johnny Manziel would make me cream my pants! A WR maybe would freak me out... because since you didn't notice anything about Miles Austin's replacement, his name is Terrence Williams. We prep'ed ourselves to be in position to replace him last year. Kudos to the front office for using the draft with an eye on our future salary cap.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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If Murray runs for 1000+ and makes the Pro Bowl again, maybe thats enough to get us in the playoffs and saves some jobs. I dont think him missing a game or 2 mattered this year anyway. He was rarely used correctly and when our D is giving up 30+ hes not changing the outcome.
What's the difference between Murray running for 1000+ or a RBBC running for 1000+?

I'll tell you what... Strong depth at the RB position that's not reliant on 1 guy, cheaper stable of backs than overpaying for 1 guy, and keeping your team more manageable against the future cap.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Are you that dense? We're talking about it now! Drafting Murray's replacement or getting his value down IS the answer to your question. Isn't this the reason for this discussion??? What else is there to talk about?

Dez and Tyron aren't going anywhere. Everybody and their mom knows that. Lee, Scandrick and Church are already resigned long term. WTF? Why did you even mention them as guys Jerry would have difficulty resigning if we already resigned them? Claiborne isn't a FA until 2016.

The only name worth talking about that you mentioned was Murray.

-----

And I've also learned that whenever you say "Using that logic..." or "That's like saying..." It's always going to be some ridiculous relationship that doesn't make sense.

If your point is that we need to address QB, CB, ILB early you won't hear me freak out. In fact, getting Johnny Manziel would make me cream my pants! A WR maybe would freak me out... because since you didn't notice anything about Miles Austin's replacement, his name is Terrence Williams. We prep'ed ourselves to be in position to replace him last year. Kudos to the front office for using the draft with an eye on our future salary cap.
All I can tell you is that if Murray runs for 1200 yards and 10 Tds and is a Pro Bowler AND JJ wants him back on the team, he will be here and probably over paid. Thats what the argument is about. Romo making 100 million is a NON FACTOR!! Seattle isnt good because they are paying peanuts to their QB, they are good because they have a competent GM that finds value throughout the draft and made some great trades. They are doing now, what Jimmy did while he was here. Im not surprised you would want to draft Manzeil, you and JJ are 2 of a kind. Shiney. Toy. I. Must. Have.

And BTW, I asked you if there was ANYBODY on the roster that JJ wouldnt sign for cap reasons. You were making the argument on how to keep Murray here for cheaper. So I guess there is nobody on our roster that we cant keep even with a $100 million QB. That was the original argument.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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What's the difference between Murray running for 1000+ or a RBBC running for 1000+?

I'll tell you what... Strong depth at the RB position that's not reliant on 1 guy, cheaper stable of backs than overpaying for 1 guy, and keeping your team more manageable against the future cap.
Thought that was why we drafted Randle. Thought Dunbar was supposed to be in that mix. Guess we are ready to move on from them and get a 4th guy. More shiney toys!!! Great way to build a team. Ignore that 32nd ranked D and get more offense!! Lol. 2 of a kind.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Thought that was why we drafted Randle. Thought Dunbar was supposed to be in that mix. Guess we are ready to move on from them and get a 4th guy. More shiney toys!!! Great way to build a team. Ignore that 32nd ranked D and get more offense!! Lol. 2 of a kind.
I'll just leave it at this... YOU THOUGHT.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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I'll just leave it at this... YOU THOUGHT.


RB? Hell ya! Give me another. Thrown in a TE and WR too!!
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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All I can tell you is that if Murray runs for 1200 yards and 10 Tds and is a Pro Bowler AND JJ wants him back on the team, he will be here and probably over paid. Thats what the argument is about. Romo making 100 million is a NON FACTOR!! Seattle isnt good because they are paying peanuts to their QB, they are good because they have a competent GM that finds value throughout the draft and made some great trades. They are doing now, what Jimmy did while he was here. Im not surprised you would want to draft Manzeil, you and JJ are 2 of a kind. Shiney. Toy. I. Must. Have.

And BTW, I asked you if there was ANYBODY on the roster that JJ wouldnt sign for cap reasons. You were making the argument on how to keep Murray here for cheaper. So I guess there is nobody on our roster that we cant keep even with a $100 million QB. That was the original argument.
Romo making $100M is a huge handicap! Who is saying otherwise? If left up to me I would've traded Romo instead of extending him. Listen, if Tony Romo made $680K instead of $21M in a season then I would give him a lot more slack... BUT HE DOESN'T! So don't tell me Seattle or San Fran is good because they surround their QB with a good team. They can afford it. They don't invest like we invest in our QB.

We pay our QB like Brees and Manning and even more than Brady gets paid so he should be OVERCOMING weaknesses like they do. Does he? I don't know, but he sure does get a lot of excuses.

So don't tell me I like shiny toys when you LOVE your $100M dollar QB. Pot calling the kettle black.

Here's your answer to your weirdly communicated question...

Who we CAN'T keep because Romo is on the roster... Jason Hatcher, Anthony Spencer, Miles Austin... possibly Ware, Carr, Free, Witten... but in terms of young building blocks, only Murray comes to mind. If Claiborne doesn't show his worth then there's no reason to sign him anyways, but it's too early to know that now.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Randle sucks, I wish I knew why we drafted him. I'm usually a big skill position guy as I love scouting those guys and he sucked every time I ever saw him. At best he looked like an average 3rd down back ie Mewelde Moore type. Dunbar is legit, I don't know if he can stay healthy but dude is so explosive and has a gear Demarco doesn't have.


I'm fine with blowing 1 pick on Randle, but man, another RB would be depressing. If we don't draft at least 2-3 D lineman I'll have a problem and from there RB is a position I can easily see passing on. If we want one, my take would be to try and be first in line on the UDFA bin and sign the guy we like the most out of that crop.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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Thought that was why we drafted Randle. Thought Dunbar was supposed to be in that mix. Guess we are ready to move on from them and get a 4th guy. More shiney toys!!! Great way to build a team. Ignore that 32nd ranked D and get more offense!! Lol. 2 of a kind.
More shiney toys? You talkin' about that 5th rounder and UDFA??? LMAO.

Seattle paid Lynch $7M this year though. I guess they have a problem with shiney toys too.
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Old 02-03-2014, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Randle sucks, I wish I knew why we drafted him. I'm usually a big skill position guy as I love scouting those guys and he sucked every time I ever saw him. At best he looked like an average 3rd down back ie Mewelde Moore type. Dunbar is legit, I don't know if he can stay healthy but dude is so explosive and has a gear Demarco doesn't have.


I'm fine with blowing 1 pick on Randle, but man, another RB would be depressing. If we don't draft at least 2-3 D lineman I'll have a problem and from there RB is a position I can easily see passing on. If we want one, my take would be to try and be first in line on the UDFA bin and sign the guy we like the most out of that crop.
I think the jury is still out on him, but to his advantage, I think Linehan will like having him. His pass catching skills can be a weapon in this scheme. Dunbar is always fun to watch until he fumbles or gets hurt. He doesn't have the frame to withstand the demand of a fulltime back, but he's good in a RBBC approach. We still have no answer when Murray gets hurt though and I'm tired of hoping that he won't get hurt.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Randle sucks, I wish I knew why we drafted him. I'm usually a big skill position guy as I love scouting those guys and he sucked every time I ever saw him. At best he looked like an average 3rd down back ie Mewelde Moore type. Dunbar is legit, I don't know if he can stay healthy but dude is so explosive and has a gear Demarco doesn't have.


I'm fine with blowing 1 pick on Randle, but man, another RB would be depressing. If we don't draft at least 2-3 D lineman I'll have a problem and from there RB is a position I can easily see passing on. If we want one, my take would be to try and be first in line on the UDFA bin and sign the guy we like the most out of that crop.
Agree 100%. Wouldnt surprise me if we did, which is why we are 8-8 every year, but I sure hope not.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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More shiney toys? You talkin' about that 5th rounder and UDFA??? LMAO.

Seattle paid Lynch $7M this year though. I guess they have a problem with shiney toys too.
LOL. The shiney toy would be if we draft ANOTHER one. Lynch is worth $7M. Our GM might think DeMarco is too after next year. Prepare yourself.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Romo making $100M is a huge handicap! Who is saying otherwise? If left up to me I would've traded Romo instead of extending him. Listen, if Tony Romo made $680K instead of $21M in a season then I would give him a lot more slack... BUT HE DOESN'T! So don't tell me Seattle or San Fran is good because they surround their QB with a good team. They can afford it. They don't invest like we invest in our QB.

We pay our QB like Brees and Manning and even more than Brady gets paid so he should be OVERCOMING weaknesses like they do. Does he? I don't know, but he sure does get a lot of excuses.

So don't tell me I like shiny toys when you LOVE your $100M dollar QB. Pot calling the kettle black.

Here's your answer to your weirdly communicated question...

Who we CAN'T keep because Romo is on the roster... Jason Hatcher(OLD), Anthony Spencer(INJURED), Miles Austin(UNPRODUCTIVE)... possibly Ware(DOWNSIDE), Carr(OVER PAID), Free(MEH), Witten(NOT GOING ANYWHERE)... but in terms of young building blocks, only Murray comes to mind. If Claiborne doesn't show his worth then there's no reason to sign him anyways, but it's too early to know that now.
If JJ wants any of those guys back, they'll be back. Most dont deserve to be.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather have a stronger line than a new RB. Mack and Free got better, but they're still the weak links. I don't expect perfection, but they still give up things too easily at times. I'm fine with Tyron, Leary, and Frederick, but getting someone else in there that could pummel D-linemen would take the offense to new heights. I think that Waters' injury really took some steam out of an already underused running game last season, and getting a real replacement besides Mack would be ideal for me.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather have a stronger line than a new RB. Mack and Free got better, but they're still the weak links. I don't expect perfection, but they still give up things too easily at times. I'm fine with Tyron, Leary, and Frederick, but getting someone else in there that could pummel D-linemen would take the offense to new heights. I think that Waters' injury really took some steam out of an already underused running game last season, and getting a real replacement besides Mack would be ideal for me.
Agreed. Lets try building up the trenches. Both sides of the ball. When was the last time we were known as a physically dominate team? When its 3rd and 2 and everybody knows your going to run it but nobody can stop it. It's been to long.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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LOL. The shiney toy would be if we draft ANOTHER one. Lynch is worth $7M. Our GM might think DeMarco is too after next year. Prepare yourself.
You mean like Robert Turbin drafted in Round 4?

What the Cowboys do (not Jerry alone btw) will be judged. We're talkin' draft talk... what we think the Cowboys should or shouldn't do. If the Cowboys overpay Murray then so be it. It still won't stop me from thinking that we shouldn't have. Same thoughts I have on our Romo situation.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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If JJ wants any of those guys back, they'll be back. Most dont deserve to be.
If Hatcher, Spencer and Austin are back at a contract I don't agree with then I'll voice my displeasure openly.

But there is your answer on who I think we are unable to keep because of Romo's deal. It will be the old guys, not the young guys like you were trying to infer. Only young guys that won't be back are the ones that don't deserve it... like Jerry has shown in the past.. ie. Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins. Maybe it's Carter or Claiborne in the future.

I think you have this impression that Jerry wants to keep EVERYONE or that ANY new contract is a bad contract, but that simply isn't the case. He doesn't keep everyone and Lee, Church, Scandrick signed good deals.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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If Hatcher, Spencer and Austin are back at a contract I don't agree with then I'll voice my displeasure openly.

But there is your answer on who I think we are unable to keep because of Romo's deal. It will be the old guys, not the young guys like you were trying to infer. Only young guys that won't be back are the ones that don't deserve it... like Jerry has shown in the past.. ie. Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins. Maybe it's Carter or Claiborne in the future.

I think you have this impression that Jerry wants to keep EVERYONE or that ANY new contract is a bad contract, but that simply isn't the case. He doesn't keep everyone and Lee, Church, Scandrick signed good deals.
Not true. I dont believe that. I believe if he wants them he will find a way to keep them. Romo's deal wont hinder him in finding a way. Not saying thats a negative either, sometimes its good. There was a time when Romo was starting as a UFA and getting paid peanuts but we didnt win a Super Bowl while spending money in other places. Seattle has found some big time players in the middle rounds. Their starting Corner got hurt and they didnt miss a beat. They have quality depth while we are calling on guys off the street. When they sign Wilson, they'll find a way to keep all those guys on D if they want to keep them. Thats all Im saying.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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I'd rather have a stronger line than a new RB. Mack and Free got better, but they're still the weak links. I don't expect perfection, but they still give up things too easily at times. I'm fine with Tyron, Leary, and Frederick, but getting someone else in there that could pummel D-linemen would take the offense to new heights. I think that Waters' injury really took some steam out of an already underused running game last season, and getting a real replacement besides Mack would be ideal for me.
It's not always about getting top talent at every position in the trenches. At some point you have to have to rely on smaller investments panning out. Leary is exactly that. Bernadeau is exactly that. Sure, we would all love our OL to comprise of 1st or 2nd round picks, but that doesn't solve all of our problems. A freak injury to a RB isn't caused by a bad OL. A good OL can buffer the loss of your RB, but only to a degree. Only a good replacement at RB can replace a good injured RB. The Vikings aren't the same when AD goes down and they have a good OL.

Seattle has 2 starters on their OL.. Giacominni (5th rounder-drafted by Green Bay) and Sweezy (7th rounder). They are just an example, but a successful team has to rely on low investments panning out.

Secondly, saying we need to spend a 4th rounder or even a 3rd rounder on a RB, doesn't mean that we have ignored the OL. We can't always draft day 1 starters. We have to develop starters out of our mid to late round picks. Some positions allow you do draft Day 1 starters out of your mid to late round picks (commonly RB and LB). I'm all for that kind of moves.
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Old 02-03-2014, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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Not true. I dont believe that. I believe if he wants them he will find a way to keep them. Romo's deal wont hinder him in finding a way. Not saying thats a negative either, sometimes its good. There was a time when Romo was starting as a UFA and getting paid peanuts but we didnt win a Super Bowl while spending money in other places. Seattle has found some big time players in the middle rounds. Their starting Corner got hurt and they didnt miss a beat. They have quality depth while we are calling on guys off the street. When they sign Wilson, they'll find a way to keep all those guys on D if they want to keep them. Thats all Im saying.
Once they sign Wilson, they will have to start to pick and choose. Same with San Fran when they sign Kaep. Maybe they keep their guys on D and lose some on O. No matter, something has to give.
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Old 02-03-2014, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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It's not always about getting top talent at every position in the trenches. At some point you have to have to rely on smaller investments panning out. Leary is exactly that. Bernadeau is exactly that. Sure, we would all love our OL to comprise of 1st or 2nd round picks, but that doesn't solve all of our problems. A freak injury to a RB isn't caused by a bad OL. A good OL can buffer the loss of your RB, but only to a degree. Only a good replacement at RB can replace a good injured RB. The Vikings aren't the same when AD goes down and they have a good OL.

Seattle has 2 starters on their OL.. Giacominni (5th rounder-drafted by Green Bay) and Sweezy (7th rounder). They are just an example, but a successful team has to rely on low investments panning out.

Secondly, saying we need to spend a 4th rounder or even a 3rd rounder on a RB, doesn't mean that we have ignored the OL. We can't always draft day 1 starters. We have to develop starters out of our mid to late round picks. Some positions allow you do draft Day 1 starters out of your mid to late round picks (commonly RB and LB). I'm all for that kind of moves.
Well for me it's not about where they're drafted. It's more about the fact that they are drafted or picked up in FA. I don't have faith in Mack and Free. Leary's got some promise. It's weird that his PFF ratings are terrible, but he's a solid player from what I've seen. He's not the stud that Tyron is, nor is he as good as Frederick, but he's a good middle man that could build good chemistry for them. Mack could take a hike though. Same with Free. I want a more dominant line. I don't care if they take a guy early or late, but RG and/or RT are at the top of my list after DL, DT, and FS.
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Old 02-04-2014, 04:01 AM    (permalink
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Romo making $100M is a huge handicap! Who is saying otherwise? If left up to me I would've traded Romo instead of extending him. Listen, if Tony Romo made $680K instead of $21M in a season then I would give him a lot more slack... BUT HE DOESN'T! So don't tell me Seattle or San Fran is good because they surround their QB with a good team. They can afford it. They don't invest like we invest in our QB.

We pay our QB like Brees and Manning and even more than Brady gets paid so he should be OVERCOMING weaknesses like they do. Does he? I don't know, but he sure does get a lot of excuses.
What kind of distorted argument is this?

San Fran AND Seattle are both playing QB's still on their rookie contracts. Kaepernick will get a contract that rival's Romo's and Wilson will ape the living **** out of Romo's contract when they get resigned and no amount of quality in the front office is going to change that.

The circumstances for those teams being of a higher quality is that they have more money to spend on the team because they have completely BALLED out on their QB play.

Of course then you have the teams like Minnesota/Tennessee/Cleveland who have drafted QB's and those teams aren't getting superior play from their QB's.(Because I know your argument would have been to draft Romo's replacement)

We shouldn't be basing our situation on the San Fran's and Seattle's of the world as their situation is not comparable.

We should be looking at Denver/New England/G-Men/Pittsburgh(until this year)/Green Bay.

Better coaching. Better decisions. Keeping quality players at their peak.

Comparing a situation where two teams have been able to assemble some defensive juggernaut because they are paying their QB's absolute peanuts... IS NOT COMPARABLE.
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Old 02-04-2014, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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What kind of distorted argument is this?

San Fran AND Seattle are both playing QB's still on their rookie contracts. Kaepernick will get a contract that rival's Romo's and Wilson will ape the living **** out of Romo's contract when they get resigned and no amount of quality in the front office is going to change that.

The circumstances for those teams being of a higher quality is that they have more money to spend on the team because they have completely BALLED out on their QB play.

Of course then you have the teams like Minnesota/Tennessee/Cleveland who have drafted QB's and those teams aren't getting superior play from their QB's.(Because I know your argument would have been to draft Romo's replacement)

We shouldn't be basing our situation on the San Fran's and Seattle's of the world as their situation is not comparable.

We should be looking at Denver/New England/G-Men/Pittsburgh(until this year)/Green Bay.

Better coaching. Better decisions. Keeping quality players at their peak.

Comparing a situation where two teams have been able to assemble some defensive juggernaut because they are paying their QB's absolute peanuts... IS NOT COMPARABLE.
There's nothing distorted about what I said and in fact you did not make a single point that goes against anything I said.

I don't think you've been following the discussion. Pocket brought up the thought that SEA is set up for longevity. Trog and I tried to tell him that once they have to pay their stars like Wilson, Sherman, etc that they won't be able to field as strong a team as they currently have constructed. SF fits in the same boat with Kap. They will get into a situation like we are with Romo.

Nobody is saying that they are our model. In fact, I said that Romo's contract is a handicap that we have to work around. So you are exactly right about us being incomparable. When we have to pay our QB like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Eli, Big Ben... then he needs to make up for some of our weaknesses like those guys do. ALL OF THEM has had to overcome imperfections on their way to success. We've seen it on occasion from Romo, but he's never shown us consistency. Then when he doesn't, every offseason we go into it saying, "Romo needs this... Romo needs that... It's not his fault that this or that sucks".

We have guys crying about OL. I mentioned that SEA starts Giancomini and Sweeney... a 5th and 7th rounder. While we would ALL love an OL made up of 1st and 2nd round picks, that's really asking for the impossible. Our OL turned the corner last year and it's true that cohesiveness can make up for talent. I think that we'll have a chance to add to our OL in the draft where the value fits right, but if we continue to beef it up, then we need to look at other areas where we can start to save on current or future costs. ...thus the talk of Murray's future with the team.
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