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Old 02-05-2014, 04:22 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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DE should be looked at in the draft. That isn't the question.

As a long time Spencer supporter, you wouldn't even want him back if he came cheap?

Even as a long time hater, recent convert, I definitely would bring him back affordably. Reason why SEA is good is because of their depth.
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Good points. I agree, if he comes here as a cheap backup then I could live with that. Anything more than that, let him walk.
Seriously... your reading comprehension stinks. I said this and you said no. Now you say yes??? Oh boy.
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Old 02-05-2014, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Seriously... your reading comprehension stinks. I said this and you said no. Now you say yes??? Oh boy.
Im just saying as a cheap BACKUP I could live with it. Still not ideal and I'd rather have a young healthy player there but if nobody wanted him and he agreed to be a backup at the league minimum, it wouldnt be so bad I guess.

Not a guy I would ever depend on at this point though. Besides I knew if I said it, I'd get a rise out of you Lol. ;)
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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For what its worth, Kiper and McShay are both Mocking us Clinton-Dix. Im really hoping for D-line in the 1st, Donald specifically. Seems hes almost everybodys pet cat. No?
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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For what its worth, Kiper and McShay are both Mocking us Clinton-Dix. Im really hoping for D-line in the 1st, Donald specifically. Seems hes almost everybodys pet cat. No?
I think I'm the only one scared of Clinton Dix here.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Anything on defense is a plus.
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Old 02-06-2014, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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I think I'm the only one scared of Clinton Dix here.
I'm scared of his run support. I love his ability to play single-high though. With our defense it'll depend on what Marinelli wants out of a safety though. If we are not going to be playing a lot of single-high I'd pass on him in the 1st.

Was watching tape on Joyner and actually noticed another FSU defender whom I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like at the moment.

Terrance Brooks, FS. CBS has him as a 3-4th guy and I would kill for him there. The CBS comparison of Louis Delmas seems to fit the bill and would allow us to target the defensive lineman we sorely need higher up.

Check out his closing speed on the second play...




You want run support? Check out 2:10 in the same video. That closing speed is absolutely sick.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm scared of his run support. I love his ability to play single-high though. With our defense it'll depend on what Marinelli wants out of a safety though. If we are not going to be playing a lot of single-high I'd pass on him in the 1st.

Was watching tape on Joyner and actually noticed another FSU defender whom I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like at the moment.

Terrance Brooks, FS. CBS has him as a 3-4th guy and I would kill for him there. The CBS comparison of Louis Delmas seems to fit the bill and would allow us to target the defensive lineman we sorely need higher up.

Check out his closing speed on the second play...




You want run support? Check out 2:10 in the same video. That closing speed is absolutely sick.
Brooks is an interesting target, but I can't judge him by what he does against NC State's QB, who is not very good and had only just recently returned in that game.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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I'm scared of his run support. I love his ability to play single-high though. With our defense it'll depend on what Marinelli wants out of a safety though. If we are not going to be playing a lot of single-high I'd pass on him in the 1st.
Joyner is a pretty decent run defender despite his size, could even make the arguement that he is better then Brooks and that is the reason he was slotted at SS. They both tend to shoulder tackle a bit too much for my liking but neither is afraid of contact.

My knock on Joyner would be the difficulty he will have matching up against tightends. There are ways around putting him in those types of situations though, especially with his ability to drop in the slot or cover RBs out of the backfield.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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For safety run support isn't what I'd look for. Church had some inconsistencies that pissed me off at times, but he's a very sure tackler that's solid in run support. That's at least one aspect of safety that's wrapped up, and Wilcox didn't seem to bad there. The problem is that there wasn't anyone that could make plays deep down the field. Wilcox has some potential there, but he's still really raw. Heath is just a lost cause, and I keep forgetting that Matt Johnson exists because he doesn't play. Maybe Ward is the answer in the mid rounds if they don't go for Dix or Pryor early.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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So IYO we can skimp on the backend of the D while admitting thats where JJ has spent most of his money. Then you say stop ******** on JJ. Then you go on to talk about a flawed draft process in drafting injury prone players, but dont want to **** on JJ. Somebody is to blame for the things that you mentioned but for some reason nobody wants to put it on the face of the franchise. "From the socks to the jocks" I believe was JJ's quote.
The question was where would you spend money?

Granted where I would spend money differs from what we are currently running with... The question was merely what would I do?

The drafting habits I put down to Garrett actually. Now granted that is an extension of Jerry the GM. They still seem to stem from Garrett the talent acquisition officer. I think we take the guys we do because these guys are obviously high quality guys but no one will touch them because they cannot stay fit. It's a "safe" pick where you can blame injuries for a bad record.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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The question was where would you spend money?

Granted where I would spend money differs from what we are currently running with... The question was merely what would I do?

The drafting habits I put down to Garrett actually. Now granted that is an extension of Jerry the GM. They still seem to stem from Garrett the talent acquisition officer. I think we take the guys we do because these guys are obviously high quality guys but no one will touch them because they cannot stay fit. It's a "safe" pick where you can blame injuries for a bad record.
Or actually, where would you SAVE money at?

I did an excel breakdown to see where our money is going in 2014 based off the cap numbers at overthecap.com.

This is how we stand:

QB - 20%
DB - 20%
DL - 15%
OL - 15%
WR - 10%
LB - 9%
TE - 7%
RB - 2%
ST - 2%

Now, let's just have a practice here... If we ONLY used the draft to help us manage our cap, what positions do you think we should be targeting?

Due to extensions needed for Tyron and Dez...perhaps Murray, Carter, we will have to trim the fat at other positions.

The easy cut is Miles Austin. The question is how to do it.
-- Pre-June 1st cut - Saves us $400K next season, then totally off the books in future years.
-- June 1st cut - Saves us $6M next season, then roughly will count $2M in Dead Money over the next 3 seasons after that.

Next easiest is probably Free.
-- Pre-June 1st cut - Saves us $500K next season, then totally off the books in future years.
-- June 1st cut - Saves us $4M next season, then roughly will count $2.3M in Dead Money over the next 2 seasons after that.

I think it would be wise to keep Free one more season because in 2015 we can save $7M by cutting him. The only consideration for cutting him now would be if I felt Parnell was ready to be a reliable starter. Either way, drafting an OT/OG should be one of the higher priorities for us. As we move towards paying Tyron more money, we'll have to get back to cheap eats opposite of him.

DB and QB stand out, but it is inflated due to Romo ($21M) and Carr's ($12M) contracts. I don't see either of them going anywhere. Hopefully, they live up to their pay grade.

DL is inflated due to Ware's ($16M) contract. This is one that honestly concerns me. Did we see our last of Ware in a Cowboys uniform? The smart thing to do is to find out his trade value and then decide. The heart in me wants to keep him, but my brain says no. In the end, if we can use the money wisely, then I'm ok with getting rid of him, but if we can afford him, then I say keep him and hope for a bounce back year.

Happy to know that we have Witten's potential replacement in Escobar. Lot of grumpy hearts out there due to the fact that he wasn't used much last year, but he shores up our depth behind Witten and there is still potential that he is the future heir. I still think he would've been a bigger play last year if T-Will didn't break out the way he did. Simply put, we just found success with 3 WR sets more than 2 TE sets.

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Old 02-07-2014, 06:16 PM    (permalink
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Or actually, where would you SAVE money at?

I did an excel breakdown to see where our money is going in 2014 based off the cap numbers at overthecap.com.

This is how we stand:

QB - 20%
DB - 20%
DL - 15%
OL - 15%
WR - 10%
LB - 9%
TE - 7%
RB - 2%
ST - 2%

Now, let's just have a practice here... If we ONLY used the draft to help us manage our cap, what positions do you think we should be targeting?

Due to extensions needed for Tyron and Dez...perhaps Murray, Carter, we will have to trim the fat at other positions.

The easy cut is Miles Austin. The question is how to do it.
-- Pre-June 1st cut - Saves us $400K next season, then totally off the books in future years.
-- June 1st cut - Saves us $6M next season, then roughly will count $2M in Dead Money over the next 3 seasons after that.

Next easiest is probably Free.
-- Pre-June 1st cut - Saves us $500K next season, then totally off the books in future years.
-- June 1st cut - Saves us $4M next season, then roughly will count $2.3M in Dead Money over the next 2 seasons after that.

I think it would be wise to keep Free one more season because in 2015 we can save $7M by cutting him. The only consideration for cutting him now would be if I felt Parnell was ready to be a reliable starter. Either way, drafting an OT/OG should be one of the higher priorities for us. As we move towards paying Tyron more money, we'll have to get back to cheap eats opposite of him.

DB and QB stand out, but it is inflated due to Romo ($21M) and Carr's ($12M) contracts. I don't see either of them going anywhere. Hopefully, they live up to their pay grade.

DL is inflated due to Ware's ($16M) contract. This is one that honestly concerns me. Did we see our last of Ware in a Cowboys uniform? The smart thing to do is to find out his trade value and then decide. The heart in me wants to keep him, but my brain says no. In the end, if we can use the money wisely, then I'm ok with getting rid of him, but if we can afford him, then I say keep him and hope for a bounce back year.

Happy to know that we have Witten's potential replacement in Escobar. Lot of grumpy hearts out there due to the fact that he wasn't used much last year, but he shores up our depth behind Witten and there is still potential that he is the future heir. I still think he would've been a bigger play last year if T-Will didn't break out the way he did. Simply put, we just found success with 3 WR sets more than 2 TE sets.
Mostly the same thoughts as I. I like the idea of cutting Miles now and taking the dead money cap hit this year so there won't be any future monies against the cap.

I would keep Free. His cap number isn't super high anymore and he played at a level where we can get by. If we are in position to draft his replacement this year. Do it. But I like the Saints way of doing things by building from the inside which means committing more to my Guards then my Tackles. I understand Smith is going to be all-world but it's the guys in the center who are going to give Romo the room he needs.(He's likes throwing to the center of the field now I have noticed)

Actually that would be a good way to determine need on the offensive line. Where does Romo throw the ball and thus where should we be giving him the clearest lane to throw through.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Carr if anyone wanted to offer me decent draft picks and a DL with upside. But those trades don't come by very often and I think we have to take a cap hit for trading him.

In terms of Witten. He's a luxury. But he's never been the guy who's going to win us a Superbowl and there really is no TE who ever will. Thus cutting him and playing whoever you want there is my preference. Whether it's Escobar or any number of options we have had since Parcells as our second TE. A good quarterback will use ANY TE as a security blanket. Whether it be Witten or Joe Blow off the street.

With Ware... The more I think about it. The more I tend to swing towards trading him for anything near to a second round pick(+ another pick) My reasoning is that I would prefer 2-3-4 guys all earning around 6-8 million who can get 9+ sacks each then one guy getting 16 million who can potentially get 20 sacks. It makes your D-Line too One Dimensional.
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Old 02-07-2014, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Mostly the same thoughts as I. I like the idea of cutting Miles now and taking the dead money cap hit this year so there won't be any future monies against the cap.

I would keep Free. His cap number isn't super high anymore and he played at a level where we can get by. If we are in position to draft his replacement this year. Do it. But I like the Saints way of doing things by building from the inside which means committing more to my Guards then my Tackles. I understand Smith is going to be all-world but it's the guys in the center who are going to give Romo the room he needs.(He's likes throwing to the center of the field now I have noticed)

Actually that would be a good way to determine need on the offensive line. Where does Romo throw the ball and thus where should we be giving him the clearest lane to throw through.

I wouldn't be opposed to trading Carr if anyone wanted to offer me decent draft picks and a DL with upside. But those trades don't come by very often and I think we have to take a cap hit for trading him.

In terms of Witten. He's a luxury. But he's never been the guy who's going to win us a Superbowl and there really is no TE who ever will. Thus cutting him and playing whoever you want there is my preference. Whether it's Escobar or any number of options we have had since Parcells as our second TE. A good quarterback will use ANY TE as a security blanket. Whether it be Witten or Joe Blow off the street.

With Ware... The more I think about it. The more I tend to swing towards trading him for anything near to a second round pick(+ another pick) My reasoning is that I would prefer 2-3-4 guys all earning around 6-8 million who can get 9+ sacks each then one guy getting 16 million who can potentially get 20 sacks. It makes your D-Line too One Dimensional.
Nice thoughts. I'll lean with ya and agree on cutting Miles now. It's not like we need the money this offseason. We'll need it next when those key extensions are up for Tyron, Dez, Murray, etc.

Keeping Free is fine too. He bounced back. The only thing in the back of my mind is that I honestly think Parnell is ready to go. I'm with you on wanting to improve OG but I think a versatile guy who can play Tackle and Guard would be ideal. There are several of those types in this draft. Wiiten4HOF took Morgan Moses for us in the Forum Mock and I loved that thought.

I don't think anyone would trade for Carr after this season, but I am hopeful to see him in a more aggressive scheme under Marinelli. I hope he ends up playing like Peanut Tillman. Also can't wait to see Claiborne in this new scheme!
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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Question for Monday morning:

Theoretically what would you do if you had to make this choice...

Cut Ware and extend Hatcher or Keep Ware and let Hatcher go?
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:59 AM    (permalink
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Question for Monday morning:

Theoretically what would you do if you had to make this choice...

Cut Ware and extend Hatcher or Keep Ware and let Hatcher go?
I dont think that either scenario helps in the long term. Best case scenario would be Ware taking a good faith pay reduction but he has said that won't be happening.

The front office's #1 priority this offseason has to be continuing to cycle in young talent and that starts with hitting in the draft. The more heavy contracts we let expire without major restructures the better the future cap figures become. If we have to continue to stretch the bulk of guaranteed money as our big hitters age the more dead money is locked into declining production and so on and so on.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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I dont think that either scenario helps in the long term. Best case scenario would be Ware taking a good faith pay reduction but he has said that won't be happening.

The front office's #1 priority this offseason has to be continuing to cycle in young talent and that starts with hitting in the draft. The more heavy contracts we let expire without major restructures the better the future cap figures become. If we have to continue to stretch the bulk of guaranteed money as our big hitters age the more dead money is locked into declining production and so on and so on.
This is where we have to balance long term goals and short term goals. The talk of "wasting Romo's prime years" tells me that the front office still has "win now" very much at the front of their minds. Giving Romo that brand new extension AND now having to pinch pennies elsewhere while trying to "reload" and not "rebuild" is the game we have to play.
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Question for Monday morning:

Theoretically what would you do if you had to make this choice...

Cut Ware and extend Hatcher or Keep Ware and let Hatcher go?
This is a tough one. Ware has been a god for years outside of last year, and half of the 2012 season. Hatcher outplayed Ware, and was clearly the best defensive lineman last year. With all that being said I'd take Ware for a few reasons.

1. He's done so much that I don't mind them paying him a little bit more to see if he can get even close back to form. He doesn't completely suck. He's just a solid player now with a lot of injuries instead of the beast he once was in the past. He shows flashes of getting back to form, and just a little bit of his top form is worth more than Hatcher's best year.

2. His salary is already on the books, so there's nothing complicated with him. If they want to trade or cut him that's fine, but they don't have to try and work "cap magic" to try and keep his contract from stalling the future. Losing Hatcher costs you nothing because he's a free agent. Losing Ware costs you cap money for however long it states in his contact, and you have to deal with Hatcher's new contract that would easily cost a ton. Let's say for instance Hatcher signs a new contract that costs the team $7 million next year while Ware's contract costs the team $7 million if he is cut or traded. That would be $14 million tied up into two positions that only get production from one since the other guy is gone. If Ware's salary is $9 million for next year then you're only committing $9 million to one guy that is still playing. I'm just using example numbers here, but you get my point.

3. We don't know if Hatcher can put up the same performance again. Sure we don't know the same with Ware, but Ware's body of work gives me more faith than Hatcher. Hatcher has definitely been a good player in the past, and he finally got into a 4-3 scheme that would let him make better use of his athleticism. With that being said I don't trust players that have career, breakout years in the last years of their contract. There have been too many instances of guys who save their best for their contract year, and then after that they don't do much. Just look at Doug Free. He had two really good years, got his money, stunk it up for two years, and then played solid after he was forced to take a pay cut. I like Hatcher, but it may not be worth it to pay that guy a ton.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:02 PM    (permalink
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Nice points E-Man! Totally following you there.
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Old 02-10-2014, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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I like the idea of cutting Austin now, stemming the bleeding for future years. I don't see Jerrah cutting Ware or Witten, though I don't think Ware has helped us win in a few years and Witten is on the downside (at least in terms of playing well for 16 games).

I don't see the need to cut Free anymore, though I was a proponent last year. He played really well last year at times and his value is much more equal to his contract value now.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:09 AM    (permalink
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Yeah if I HAD to choose an option. It would be to keep Ware and I think that will be the way they head this year.

Personally speaking. I would cut everyone over 30 with a surname that starts with W.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:02 AM    (permalink
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Interesting hypothetical and scenario, you have a player who had a break out in a contract year, but isn't a youngster anymore and may not be able to duplicate that performance and a proven HOF candidate who is also aging and on the down side of his career.

Personally, in this case and I could be wrong about this but I'd rather gamble on the guy with the spectacular career making a come back.
Especially if you infuse the line with some young talent via the draft.
I know they sometimes hold onto players beyond their peak to their detriment and it is a business but he's been playing injured(again those injuries could be the sign of aging)but I'd give him another shot.

So Ware over Hatch for me.
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:38 AM    (permalink
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Definitely keep Ware. Just don't be silly with.a.big restructure. Then if he doesn't revert to old form he can be cut for massive savings.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Yea I think it's in our best interest to keep Ware and let Hatcher walk. Cutting Ware would be a huge cap hit and then you're even thinner along the DL. I'd rather keep him and see if he can bounce back. I also believe Hatcher's breakout season will prove to be a fad rather than a trend.
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Definitely keep Ware. Just don't be silly with.a.big restructure. Then if he doesn't revert to old form he can be cut for massive savings.
He can already be cut for massive savings. Actually, that idea starts this offseason.

http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Te...boys&Year=2014

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Yea I think it's in our best interest to keep Ware and let Hatcher walk. Cutting Ware would be a huge cap hit and then you're even thinner along the DL. I'd rather keep him and see if he can bounce back. I also believe Hatcher's breakout season will prove to be a fad rather than a trend.
Just playing Devil's advocate here...

Cutting Ware or letting Hatcher go... either move leaves us thin on the DL. I wouldn't say one makes us thinner than the other. We need to spend a 1st rounder on either one who leaves and then continue to address it some more.

Secondly, there is not really a huge cap hit since cutting him actually saves us $7.5M right away. Keeping him will cost $16M. If we cut him before June 1st, then we take on $8.5M in dead money but we're freed of anything else after that.

The savings could help out a lot. We could use that to keep Hatcher and Spencer.

We keep a player who can still produce versus one in decline and crazy expensive.

Just sayin'...
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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I said the same before Ratliff got his last contract.

Better a year early than a year late. Great front offices make these hard decisions.
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