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Old 09-26-2007, 09:56 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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D, first, second and third rounders should be starting.

Nice to have a quality back-up but the real issue is you used a valuable option and valuable cap room for a back-up when those same resources could have been used elsewhere.
Well, matter of factly, that was the logic at the time he was drafted. Ellis was not supposed to work as a 3-4 OLB. But he did. If Parcells was on board, no way Spencer would be the pick. Carp was supposed to inhert the job that Spencer has. The pick would have been Alan Branch if Parcells was here. No doubt in my mind.
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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You see Carp playing in the preseason and hear the stories of his disappointing TC and practices. There is no way he is ready to play on a consistant basis in our D. You expect a lot more out of your first round selections...especially a player that was being called "polished" and "well-rounded" before we drafted him. 1st round picks are supposed to be the best players...obviously. He hasnt played well at all. The fact that most of us want a CB w/ a 1st round pick is because, we want the most talented corner available. Sure you could find a corner in the later rounds but, the 1st round guys are supposed to be the more talented or the surer bet. What is the problem drafting a corner in the 1st exactly?
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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You see Carp playing in the preseason and hear the stories of his disappointing TC and practices. There is no way he is ready to play on a consistant basis in our D. You expect a lot more out of your first round selections...especially a player that was being called "polished" and "well-rounded" before we drafted him. 1st round picks are supposed to be the best players...obviously. He hasnt played well at all. The fact that most of us want a CB w/ a 1st round pick is because, we want the most talented corner available. Sure you could find a corner in the later rounds but, the 1st round guys are supposed to be the more talented or the surer bet. What is the problem drafting a corner in the 1st exactly?
There is nothing wrong with drafting a corner in round 1. Just as there is nothing wrong having Carp a former 1st rounder being one of our top back ups at LB. It's the same deal. If we draft a CB in round 1 and he serves as the back up and starter in the nickel, how is that any different from Carp.

...yet all I hear is Carp is such a waste. You guys kill me with your logic.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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There is nothing wrong with drafting a corner in round 1. Just as there is nothing wrong having Carp a former 1st rounder being one of our top back ups at LB. It's the same deal. If we draft a CB in round 1 and he serves as the back up and starter in the nickel, how is that any different from Carp.

...yet all I hear is Carp is such a waste. You guys kill me with your logic.
The nickel corner sees a lot more time than Carp does. Carpenter is trapped on our team behind youth...youth that is better than him. The corner we draft would not only see the field more but, be in line to be a starter one, two years down the road...after Henry departs. Carpenter was a wasted selection that hasnt panned out at all...a lot of the blame should be on Carp's shoulders...he hasnt performed. He has been given opportunities he just hasnt played that well.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:39 PM    (permalink
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I think he's a waste if considered a bust;as in poor play. Not necessarily a waste if hes not the starter. 3-4 requires a ton of depth at LB.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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The nickel corner sees a lot more time than Carp does. Carpenter is trapped on our team behind youth...youth that is better than him. The corner we draft would not only see the field more but, be in line to be a starter one, two years down the road...after Henry departs. Carpenter was a wasted selection that hasnt panned out at all...a lot of the blame should be on Carp's shoulders...he hasnt performed. He has been given opportunities he just hasnt played that well.
That doesn't make him a bust. Ware was drafted higher and Spencer was a first round pick too. You act like he's being benched in favor of Scott Shanle.

How can you say Carp isn't in line to be a starter himself, one, two years down the road? He can play all LB positions. James and Ayodele are not in a different boat from Henry.

You're kidding yourself if you think Carp lacks talent and ability. What he lacks is playing time and a position. This is amazing... 3 weeks into his second season and he's not even been on the field long enough to get a guage and you're labeling him a bust???

Give him the time Spears has had first.
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Old 09-26-2007, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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I never called him a bust...I dont see him starting any time soon at all, though. I havent completely given up on him but, Akin and Bradie are better players and under contract for quite a while. They're in a completely different boat than Henry...Henry is an FA 2 years down the road.

Spears actually had a spot on this team and a future here...does Carpenter?
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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I never called him a bust...I dont see him starting any time soon at all, though. I havent completely given up on him but, Akin and Bradie are better players and under contract for quite a while. They're in a completely different boat than Henry...Henry is an FA 2 years down the road.

Spears actually had a spot on this team and a future here...does Carpenter?
You did all you can to label him a bust without saying the word, bust. How convenient... Do you actually plan on taking a stance or are you just going to cry sitting on the fence?

Like I said... You're not listening, so this is the last time I'll tell you, Rob... I mean Moth...

Carpenter can play all of the LB positions on the team. Parcells made him do it for better or worse. Looks like for the better right now.

It doesn't appear like he has a spot on the team right now. It takes some understanding of the meaning and importance of having depth. Kinda hard for the average fan who just stares at starting line ups everyday (not saying that's you).

If any of our starting LBs go down due to injury (heaven forbid), Carp immediately jumps into a more prominent role.

Let me relate this to the whining going on at CB where we lack depth. Newman went down and the cries about the importance of spending a first rounder on CB are echoing through the hills and valleys like hungry coyotes in the middle of the night.

It always takes a hit of reality to see a starter go down before people start to realize how important quality depth is. Right now, a future first round selection on CB doesn't seem to be a problem because of the whole depth problem at CB, but we don't have that problem at LB because we spent the pick on Carp. If we spent the pick on Cromartie instead and Ware or Spencer went down instead of Newman, we'd be hearing the cries for LB in round 1 next year and be hearing about what a waste Cromartie was cause all he does is play nickel.
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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You did all you can to label him a bust without saying the word, bust. How convenient... Do you actually plan on taking a stance or are you just going to cry sitting on the fence?

Like I said... You're not listening, so this is the last time I'll tell you, Rob... I mean Moth...

Carpenter can play all of the LB positions on the team. Parcells made him do it for better or worse. Looks like for the better right now.

It doesn't appear like he has a spot on the team right now. It takes some understanding of the meaning and importance of having depth. Kinda hard for the average fan who just stares at starting line ups everyday (not saying that's you).

If any of our starting LBs go down due to injury (heaven forbid), Carp immediately jumps into a more prominent role.

Let me relate this to the whining going on at CB where we lack depth. Newman went down and the cries about the importance of spending a first rounder on CB are echoing through the hills and valleys like hungry coyotes in the middle of the night.

It always takes a hit of reality to see a starter go down before people start to realize how important quality depth is. Right now, a future first round selection on CB doesn't seem to be a problem because of the whole depth problem at CB, but we don't have that problem at LB because we spent the pick on Carp. If we spent the pick on Cromartie instead and Ware or Spencer went down instead of Newman, we'd be hearing the cries for LB in round 1 next year and be hearing about what a waste Cromartie was cause all he does is play nickel.
You dont draft 1st round LBers for depth. He was drafted to be a starting pass rusher and at the time he couldnt cut it. So, BP moved him.

I never said, he was bust. I said he hasnt lived up to what he was supposed to be. He doesnt play anywhere near a 1st round talent. He plays slow, he's indecisive, he shys away from contact on running plays, he gets tossed around out there. He has been major let down. He is a 2nd year player...I'd be crazy to call him a bust now...I may be harsh in my critiquing but, I never called him a bust. I'll say this though, it doesn't look good at this very point in time.

Most of the guys on here knew we needed CB depth before Newman went down...hence why most of us were saying we needed a CB in the 1st round, pre Newman injury. Just in case you forgot.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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Give him the time Spears has had first.
Seriously, let's get off Carp and start talking about this clown.
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:48 AM    (permalink
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You dont draft 1st round LBers for depth. He was drafted to be a starting pass rusher and at the time he couldnt cut it. So, BP moved him.

I never said, he was bust. I said he hasnt lived up to what he was supposed to be. He doesnt play anywhere near a 1st round talent. He plays slow, he's indecisive, he shys away from contact on running plays, he gets tossed around out there. He has been major let down. He is a 2nd year player...I'd be crazy to call him a bust now...I may be harsh in my critiquing but, I never called him a bust. I'll say this though, it doesn't look good at this very point in time.

Most of the guys on here knew we needed CB depth before Newman went down...hence why most of us were saying we needed a CB in the 1st round, pre Newman injury. Just in case you forgot.
Stop saying this and that about Carp and then backing out of it. You either like his addition to the team or you don't.

I didn't forget the need of CB. Yet, I don't remember you grumbling about the Spencer pick either. So there you are again, saying a lot of things at once that contradict each other.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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Stop saying this and that about Carp and then backing out of it. You either like his addition to the team or you don't.

I didn't forget the need of CB. Yet, I don't remember you grumbling about the Spencer pick either. So there you are again, saying a lot of things at once that contradict each other.
At the time...I thought the Carp addition was a good one...I wanted Manny more but, I was content w/ the selection on draft day. Has it turned out like we all hoped? No.

2007 draft...If we didnt get AD. I wanted Brandon Merriweather or a corner in the first. I was really high on Houston but, the value wasnt there in the 1st round. The other corner I wanted...Leon Hall was already off the board.

At the time of the 07 draft...I still wanted to see what Carp could do at outside LB...if you remember. The coaches had other plans. Carp has since performed awfully in TC and the preaseason...He hasnt looked great anywhere we put him...other than ST but, we're not supposed to be paying this guy $13 mil to play primarily on ST and a little zone coverage a few times per game. I'm just saying...it's been a let down. I honestly don't know if he has much of a future here.
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Old 09-27-2007, 04:12 AM    (permalink
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I'm going against you on this D.

Bradie James is 26 and will be 27 in Jan
Akin Ayodele just turned 27 in Sept.
Anthony Henry will be 31 in November.
Terrence Newman just turned 29 in Sept.

Point is by the time the draft rolls around next year. Our starting corners will be 32 and 29 respectably.
Bradie James and Akin Ayodele will be 27.

3-5 years is quite the age difference in the position. Esspecially when you factor in the average ILB can play longer into his career at a high level than a CB just because you need to be a top athlete to play corner in the NFL. Speed is a much bigger factor and you slowly decline as you get older.

At 27...with both guys freshly resigned...where exactly is Carp going to get playingtime in the next 3 years? He'll play in the nickel. Yes he knows all the LB positions...but when your sitting on the bench looking for playing time you better. When Ellis comes back...which he is now at 11 months since his surgery Carp will no longer be the backup. Carp has never played the weakside but Burnett has. Burnett is also the primary backup to Akin. So if Akin went down Burnett would actually start not Carp.

Carp could be great for us I don't doubt it. But like I said earlier he is stuck with a rookie recognition because he can't get on the field. Because of this he won't beat out any of our starters at this time and he will constantly be just a "depth player" By the time our ILB's run out on their contracts they will both be over 30. If he was to persay start then...he would be 28 by the time Bradies contract ran out. You really going to draft a guy at 22 years old and not start him until he's aged 6 years. That logic doesn't make sense in any regaurd let alone cap wise.

Carp does have promise it was just to his downfall that parcells left town. I still find it funny that both coaches thought he had a knack for the inside. If we weren't stockpiled with LB talent he would have a shot but barring injury all he will be seeing is special teams and the nickel.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Well, the first thing you have to realize is that things change, and weird **** happens.

Bradie or Akin could both go down at any given moment. There could be lingering injury issues with one or the other. Carpenter could simply just force his way onto the field. I think Akin might be a good trade-bait guy if Carp ever does emerge.

I don't know, but I wouldn't write him off just yet, or even complain about him.

Ideally, you want your 1st rounders to start right away, but the better your team becomes, the lower you draft and the harder it is for the player to find a role on the team. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. Obviously you can look back now and say what would have/could have/should have happened, but the bottom line is that at the time of that draft, most on-lookers were just fine with the selection of Carpenter. So you have to live with that selection.

All I know is that he is a very good young talent. I do not agree with the people that say he plays slow, or is hesitant, or other bad things. He played in the pre season a lot and did great, to my eye. He's big, fast, strong and smart. The problem is that he has a very solid vet ahead of him for playing time. I truly think that, at some point this year, we will be very glad that we have him.


Also, I don't agree with the idea of drafting a CB in the 1st this year or next year. Henry is a physical CB who will not likely drop off for at least 2 years after this year. Newman is old in years, but I think he is just entering his prime, and that he has the kind of physique and natural gifts that will allow him to age well and play at a high level into his mid-30s. That leaves a nickel spot, which should be filled by a late-first or early-second day selection. I would have loved to get McCauley and give him some time to acclimate in our scheme. I still think that missing out on him will be the biggest blunder of our 06 draft, just ahead of passing on Branch.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
Well, the first thing you have to realize is that things change, and weird **** happens.

Bradie or Akin could both go down at any given moment. There could be lingering injury issues with one or the other. Carpenter could simply just force his way onto the field. I think Akin might be a good trade-bait guy if Carp ever does emerge.

I don't know, but I wouldn't write him off just yet, or even complain about him.

Ideally, you want your 1st rounders to start right away, but the better your team becomes, the lower you draft and the harder it is for the player to find a role on the team. Sometimes it happens, other times it doesn't. Obviously you can look back now and say what would have/could have/should have happened, but the bottom line is that at the time of that draft, most on-lookers were just fine with the selection of Carpenter. So you have to live with that selection.

All I know is that he is a very good young talent. I do not agree with the people that say he plays slow, or is hesitant, or other bad things. He played in the pre season a lot and did great, to my eye. He's big, fast, strong and smart. The problem is that he has a very solid vet ahead of him for playing time. I truly think that, at some point this year, we will be very glad that we have him.


Also, I don't agree with the idea of drafting a CB in the 1st this year or next year. Henry is a physical CB who will not likely drop off for at least 2 years after this year. Newman is old in years, but I think he is just entering his prime, and that he has the kind of physique and natural gifts that will allow him to age well and play at a high level into his mid-30s. That leaves a nickel spot, which should be filled by a late-first or early-second day selection. I would have loved to get McCauley and give him some time to acclimate in our scheme. I still think that missing out on him will be the biggest blunder of our 06 draft, just ahead of passing on Branch.
Agreed with you on the Newman part. Also something to consider-- Newman entered the league as an "old rookie." I normally do look at the player's age and say "yada yada is about to drop off cause hes xx years old." Then I look at the player's number of years in the NFL, to see how much wear and tear the player has actually gone through. I think Newman could well play into his mid 30s.
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by thule View Post
I'm going against you on this D.

Bradie James is 26 and will be 27 in Jan
Akin Ayodele just turned 27 in Sept.
Anthony Henry will be 31 in November.
Terrence Newman just turned 29 in Sept.

Point is by the time the draft rolls around next year. Our starting corners will be 32 and 29 respectably.
Bradie James and Akin Ayodele will be 27.

3-5 years is quite the age difference in the position. Esspecially when you factor in the average ILB can play longer into his career at a high level than a CB just because you need to be a top athlete to play corner in the NFL. Speed is a much bigger factor and you slowly decline as you get older.

At 27...with both guys freshly resigned...where exactly is Carp going to get playingtime in the next 3 years? He'll play in the nickel. Yes he knows all the LB positions...but when your sitting on the bench looking for playing time you better. When Ellis comes back...which he is now at 11 months since his surgery Carp will no longer be the backup. Carp has never played the weakside but Burnett has. Burnett is also the primary backup to Akin. So if Akin went down Burnett would actually start not Carp.

Carp could be great for us I don't doubt it. But like I said earlier he is stuck with a rookie recognition because he can't get on the field. Because of this he won't beat out any of our starters at this time and he will constantly be just a "depth player" By the time our ILB's run out on their contracts they will both be over 30. If he was to persay start then...he would be 28 by the time Bradies contract ran out. You really going to draft a guy at 22 years old and not start him until he's aged 6 years. That logic doesn't make sense in any regaurd let alone cap wise.

Carp does have promise it was just to his downfall that parcells left town. I still find it funny that both coaches thought he had a knack for the inside. If we weren't stockpiled with LB talent he would have a shot but barring injury all he will be seeing is special teams and the nickel.
Here's what I said, feel free to disagree. I don't think you're right in your assessment. It's too narrow minded. You can't just base it on age. Anyways... my points:

1) Carp was overwritten by the new coaching regime by the addition of Spencer.
2) Carp provides depth at ILB and OLB.
3) Carp is a great guy to have on the depth chart.
4) People are not complaining about the need of LB because our starters are healthy and we have great depth (Carp being apart of the answer). Saying he was a wasted pick is not entirely true.
5) People are complaining about CB being a need because Newman is injured, Glenn is out and we don't have the same quality of depth like we do at LB.
6) The tables would be turned if we had spent a first on CB instead of Carp and our starting LBs were injured and our starting CBs were healthy.
7) Carp could step in as a starter in any moment. You cannot say that just because of age that Carp doesn't have a clear path to being a starter. He is one ACL injury away from getting major playing time. His time could come at any moment. Contracts are irrelevant in the NFL because they can get cut at anytime, and our guys are only adequate, not special. If we get strapped for cash, Bradie or Akin may by asked to reconstruct their contracts or be in fear of getting cut. Carp has more upside than either of our ILBs.
8) People are giving up on Carp too early. Give him the time Spears has had before making judgements.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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I think that Bobby Carpenter will be starting over Akin Ayodele in less than 2 years. He's got the talent, and he actually is starting to get time in the nickel. And yes, he does provide immeasurable depth to our linebacking corps. Right now, he may be the most important linebacker on the team outside of Demarcus Ware.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by robert_in_bigd View Post
Actually provides evidence that big fat guys wear on you.

Specious argument. My eyes tell me eveything I need to know. The statistics only support what I see.
Yes but if you look at other backs around the league, including Julius, their stats don't jump as much as Marion's...or you could just look at his stats in the first halves of games to see the point that I'm making.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
You dont draft 1st round LBers for depth.
Yes.

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He was drafted to be a starting pass rusher
Wrong. That is not the BP 3-4 and to think so shows a poor understanding of the BP/Bellichick system

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and at the time he couldnt cut it. So, BP moved him.
BP played him inside b/c of lack of depth. Fowler left, remembah. Fujita gone, Shanle gone.

But fact is he played SOLB once Ellis went out.

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I never said, he was bust. I said he hasnt lived up to what he was supposed to be.
I think this is the most unfair (and common) silly thing to smear him with.

The kid is a OLB. Played it in OSU pretty well. He was brought in to be a 3-4 SOLB in a BP system.

That means you need to be smart and need to be able to play LB in all phases of the game.

Narrow players like Spencer (pass rush guy) would not have a chance with BP unless they could at least play zone coverage. A bonus if they could play man.

Is he a 3-4 Phillips, blitzing OLB. No, that is Spencer. He is a Patriots / Pittsburgh OLB.

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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
He doesnt play anywhere near a 1st round talent..
Best D player in Seattle at SOLB. That is under the BP/Bellichick read/react scheme.

New coach, new scheme (similar to a 46) where different skills are valued.

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He plays slow, he's indecisive, he shys away from contact on running plays, he gets tossed around out there. He has been major let down.
Not in Seattle and not at OLB in the second half of last year. As ILB, yes he has issues.

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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
He is a 2nd year player...I'd be crazy to call him a bust now...I may be harsh in my critiquing but, I never called him a bust. I'll say this though, it doesn't look good at this very point in time.
Does not look good for Burnett either. Both playes don't fit this scheme in spite of their obvious talent.

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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
Most of the guys on here knew we needed CB depth before Newman went down...hence why most of us were saying we needed a CB in the 1st round, pre Newman injury. Just in case you forgot.
Amen, should have addressed it before Round 7 this year.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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Good post rob.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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Yes but if you look at other backs around the league, including Julius, their stats don't jump as much as Marion's...or you could just look at his stats in the first halves of games to see the point that I'm making.

Maybe other RB stats don't go up as much because THEY ARE NOT AS PHYSICAL OR DETERMINED.

Fact is MBIII plays as hard in the 4th as in the 1st. He gets mroe in the second half b/c he wills it. Other RB get "tired."

Only further reinforces my belief this kid maybe be special in spite of his lack of speed.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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Maybe other RB stats don't go up as much because THEY ARE NOT AS PHYSICAL OR DETERMINED.

Fact is MBIII plays as hard in the 4th as in the 1st. He gets mroe in the second half b/c he wills it. Other RB get "tired."

Only further reinforces my belief this kid maybe be special in spite of his lack of speed.
I'm not going to bother arguing this with you any more...you look at everything far too one dimensionally. Did you even notice that Marion has far more carries in the 2nd half and is therefore more rested?
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I just want Jerrah to figure out that Carp and Burnett are depreciating in the roles picked for them.

If these guys are sane, they both bolt once they become FA.

No sense being in Dallas if you are going to be devalued because you are not 260lb edge rusher.

IMHO Burnett plays right now in Chicago. He replaces Hillenmeyer.

IMHO Carpenter plays right now in Pittsburgh (Haggan or Harrison) and plays significant time in New England behind Bruschi or Colvin depending on the scheme.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going to bother arguing this with you any more...you look at everything far too one dimensionally. Did you even notice that Marion has far more carries in the 2nd half and is therefore more rested?

This is the ol 80/20 rule TripJ

80% of it is that he is good.

20% is your stuff.

You have a point but it does not explain the extraordinary results.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I just want Jerrah to figure out that Carp and Burnett are depreciating in the roles picked for them.

If these guys are sane, they both bolt once they become FA.

No sense being in Dallas if you are going to be devalued because you are not 260lb edge rusher.

IMHO Burnett plays right now in Chicago. He replaces Hillenmeyer.
I'd do that for Tillman, Adewale Ogunleye or Mark Anderson.

IMHO Carpenter plays right now in Pittsburgh (Haggan or Harrison) and plays significant time in New England behind Bruschi or Colvin depending on the scheme.
I'd do that for Brandon Merriweather.
I'm sure they have good trade value.
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