Dallas Cowboys Discussion

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

Congrats on getting rid of Vanderjagt.

[FinChase]

I haven't seen him play in quite awhile, so is Gramatica any improvement over Vandershank?

According to dc.com, they are also about to sign Carlos Martinez, the kicker from the Dallas arena league team to the practice squad.

[thule]

Originally Posted by FinChase

I haven't seen him play in quite awhile, so is Grammatica any improvement over Vandershank?

According to dc.com, they are also about to sign Carlos Martinez, the kicker from the Dallas arena league team to the practice squad.

Well Vandy only hit about 70% of his kicks...and only could kick off to the 5-10 yard line. I think he will definately help us on kickoffs...as long as he hits 70% of his fieldgoals he's an upgrade imo.

I wouldn't look into the PS kicker very much...prob just a precausionary measure...wonder who gets kicked off the ps then?

[thule]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

It's Josh Brown or bust!

/agreed
He is a RFA correct? any idea on compensation...I was just guessing a 3rd would get the job done. Hell I'll give up a 2nd round pick we all konw we hit on our 4th round picks more then 2nd rounders neways :P

[M.O.T.H.]

Gramatica was a stud this pre season.

[Jdallas]

Originally Posted by thule

/agreed
He is a RFA correct? any idea on compensation...I was just guessing a 3rd would get the job done. Hell I'll give up a 2nd round pick we all konw we hit on our 4th round picks more then 2nd rounders neways :P

I think he was a RFA last year and should be unrestricted this year.

[FinChase]

Originally Posted by thule

Well Vandy only hit about 70% of his kicks...and only could kick off to the 5-10 yard line. I think he will definately help us on kickoffs...as long as he hits 70% of his fieldgoals he's an upgrade imo.

I wouldn't look into the PS kicker very much...prob just a precausionary measure...wonder who gets kicked off the ps then?

Hell, I'll consider it an upgrade if he can just hit consistently inside of 40 yards!

[pocketaces]

The Cowboys have just replaced the most accurate kicker in league history with, perhaps, one of the most inaccurate kickers in football.

Over the 2003-04 seasons, Martin Gramatica was 6-of-12 from 30-39 yards. But he did manage to go 4-of-13 in the 40-49 range.

It appears that Bill Parcells has traded one headcase for another, but at least this guy jumps around a lot on the rare occasions when he connects. :( :shock: :? :? :x :| scary huh?

on another note, does anyody know why romo wears #9? there was a good write up in my paper today on the subject..but if everybody already knows......

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by pocketaces

The Cowboys have just replaced the most accurate kicker in league history with, perhaps, one of the most inaccurate kickers in football.

Over the 2003-04 seasons, Martin Gramatica was 6-of-12 from 30-39 yards. But he did manage to go 4-of-13 in the 40-49 range.

It appears that Bill Parcells has traded one headcase for another, but at least this guy jumps around a lot on the rare occasions when he connects. :( :shock: :? :? :x :| scary huh?

on another note, does anyody know why romo wears #9? there was a good write up in my paper today on the subject..but if everybody already knows......

At one time Gramatica was arguablly the best kicker in the game, it was a toss up between him and Olindo Mare. Yes, it looked like he was done these last few years but, he was phenominal in a patriots uni during this camp and pre season. I was shocked that no one gave him a ring, he looked like the player of old, he finally looks healthy again. I love the pick up.

[Poet3334]

Originally Posted by Jdallas

I think he was a RFA last year and should be unrestricted this year.

Yeah, they gave him a one year tender. He's unrestricted this year.

[M.O.T.H.]

We should wait a few years and then draft South carolina's stud, Ryan Succop.

[M.O.T.H.]

What's with the Crosby fascination? he hasnt been that good this season, granted most of his misses are from 50 out but, he is kicking under 70% this year.

[Number 10]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

What's with the Crosby fascination? he hasnt been that good this season, granted most of his misses are from 50 out but, he is kicking under 70% this year.

Because a heavy dose of the posters here look at Scott's ranking and Scott's ranking only to formulate their opinions.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by Number 10

Because a heavy dose of the posters here look at Scott's ranking and Scott's ranking only to formulate their opinions.

This is true, I'm sure the majority havent even seen him play. yes, he has a nice leg but, talk about overrated on this board.

[bigmac076]

photo of Vanderjagt leaving the Cowboys facilities


couldn't be happier to get rid of Vanderjagt a.k.a. Doink the Clown!

[LSUALUM99]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

This is true, I'm sure the majority havent even seen him play. yes, he has a nice leg but, talk about overrated on this board.

If the Cowboys draft any kicker on the first day of any Draft I'll be suprememly PISSED OFF.

Look at Vanderjagt as an example. He hit 13 of 18 field goals and we say he's having a terrible season. Had he hit 16 of 18 field goals we'd be extremely happy.

That's 3 friggen FG's in 11 games. Jesus, that's worth a first day draft pick? NO WAY.

One can argue that a FG here or there wins or loses a game. True. But the bottom line is that what you should be looking at is the difference between an elite player at their position and a 'JUST A GUY' at their position. For QB's, CB's, LT's, DE/OLB this is a big difference. That's why these guys go so high in the draft. The difference between an Elite Kicker and a JAG is very small in comparison. That's why you don't waste a first day pick on them.

Mike Nugent for example....2nd round draft pick IIRC, hitting a whopping 80% (12 of 15) of his kicks. Josh Brown, the one that everyone wants us to get, is 14 of 18 this year (yes, that's right, just one better than Vanderjagt).

If anything as a coach you should get a guy that consistantly connects well on KO's and not worry about FG%. The FG% from top to bottom is pretty close. KO's there is more variance on. Bear in mind that Vandy is averaging 59.9 on his kick offs and Nugent is averaging 60.3, Vandy has more touchbacks than Nugent also. Vandy's return average is 18 while Nugent's is over 20. So, Vandy is a BETTER KO guy than the 2nd round draft pick. PLEASE do not waste a first day pick on a kicker.

[SFbear]

Reminds me of Doug Brien. Most accurate kicker in the NFL. Chokes in the playoffs. Bears sign him the next year and is absolutely terrible. Thank god for Robbie Gould.

[bigmac076]

Originally Posted by LSUALUM99

If the Cowboys draft any kicker on the first day of any Draft I'll be suprememly PISSED OFF.

Look at Vanderjagt as an example. He hit 13 of 18 field goals and we say he's having a terrible season. Had he hit 16 of 18 field goals we'd be extremely happy.

That's 3 friggen FG's in 11 games. Jesus, that's worth a first day draft pick? NO WAY.

One can argue that a FG here or there wins or loses a game. True. But the bottom line is that what you should be looking at is the difference between an elite player at their position and a 'JUST A GUY' at their position. For QB's, CB's, LT's, DE/OLB this is a big difference. That's why these guys go so high in the draft. The difference between an Elite Kicker and a JAG is very small in comparison. That's why you don't waste a first day pick on them.

Mike Nugent for example....2nd round draft pick IIRC, hitting a whopping 80% (12 of 15) of his kicks. Josh Brown, the one that everyone wants us to get, is 14 of 18 this year (yes, that's right, just one better than Vanderjagt).

If anything as a coach you should get a guy that consistantly connects well on KO's and not worry about FG%. The FG% from top to bottom is pretty close. KO's there is more variance on. That's where Vandy lacks, but for god's sake, don't waste a first day pick on a kicker.

no way waste a day one pick on a lowly kicker. Need to address too many other positions. I wanna see 2 OLs and an NT on day one.

[thule]

Originally Posted by LSUALUM99

If the Cowboys draft any kicker on the first day of any Draft I'll be suprememly PISSED OFF.

Look at Vanderjagt as an example. He hit 13 of 18 field goals and we say he's having a terrible season. Had he hit 16 of 18 field goals we'd be extremely happy.

That's 3 friggen FG's in 11 games. Jesus, that's worth a first day draft pick? NO WAY.

One can argue that a FG here or there wins or loses a game. True. But the bottom line is that what you should be looking at is the difference between an elite player at their position and a 'JUST A GUY' at their position. For QB's, CB's, LT's, DE/OLB this is a big difference. That's why these guys go so high in the draft. The difference between an Elite Kicker and a JAG is very small in comparison. That's why you don't waste a first day pick on them.

Mike Nugent for example....2nd round draft pick IIRC, hitting a whopping 80% (12 of 15) of his kicks. Josh Brown, the one that everyone wants us to get, is 14 of 18 this year (yes, that's right, just one better than Vanderjagt).

If anything as a coach you should get a guy that consistantly connects well on KO's and not worry about FG%. The FG% from top to bottom is pretty close. KO's there is more variance on. Bear in mind that Vandy is averaging 59.9 on his kick offs and Nugent is averaging 60.3, Vandy has more touchbacks than Nugent also. Vandy's return average is 18 while Nugent's is over 20. So, Vandy is a BETTER KO guy than the 2nd round draft pick. PLEASE do not waste a first day pick on a kicker.

I agree with the no drafting of a kicker. I really don't understand it...rookie kickers never seem to make an impact their first year. They seem to struggle more often then not.

I just figured since you pointed out that Brown is just 1 kick better then Vandy. I would back him up.

Do you realize inside the 40 Brown has only missed 5 kicks in his whole career.

He has never missed from inside the 30.

He has only missed one extra point in 168 attempts...pretty sure it was blocked.

He actually has a higher percentage at 50+ then the 40-49 range but either way he has been good from that range as well.

He constantly hits the goalline on kickoffs not to mention he has ability to kick to the corners.

I think one last note is needed. He has kicked his whole career in Seattle with some wierd weather. I think bring him into a dome and his percentage goes up 2-5 %

[LSUALUM99]

Originally Posted by thule

I agree with the no drafting of a kicker. I really don't understand it...rookie kickers never seem to make an impact their first year. They seem to struggle more often then not.

I just figured since you pointed out that Brown is just 1 kick better then Vandy. I would back him up.

Do you realize inside the 40 Brown has only missed 5 kicks in his whole career.

He has never missed from inside the 30.

He has only missed one extra point in 168 attempts...pretty sure it was blocked.

He actually has a higher percentage at 50+ then the 40-49 range but either way he has been good from that range as well.

He constantly hits the goalline on kickoffs not to mention he has ability to kick to the corners.

I think one last note is needed. He has kicked his whole career in Seattle with some wierd weather. I think bring him into a dome and his percentage goes up 2-5 %

Well a couple of things to add....


Lets not talk about 'career stats' because Vanderjagt has shown that career stats mean next to nothing.

Also, 50% of Brown's games are not in Seattle...so your assumption of 2-5% improvement is basically a random number that you pulled out of thing air. No basis for this number whatsoever.

Lastly, Brown has missed more kicks from 30-39 yards this year than Vanderjagt with less attempts.


I'm not trying to turn this into a Brown v. Vanderjagt discussion. I do not like Vanderjagt at all. My point is that the difference between kickers in the NFL is so ridiculously small that wasting a draft pick on one is silly (6th or 7th round picks I can live with).


Bring on Battlestar Gramatica!!!

[thule]

Originally Posted by LSUALUM99

Well a couple of things to add....


Lets not talk about 'career stats' because Vanderjagt has shown that career stats mean next to nothing.

Also, 50% of Brown's games are not in Seattle...so your assumption of 2-5% improvement is basically a random number that you pulled out of thing air. No basis for this number whatsoever.

Lastly, Brown has missed more kicks from 30-39 yards this year than Vanderjagt with less attempts.


I'm not trying to turn this into a Brown v. Vanderjagt discussion. I do not like Vanderjagt at all. My point is that the difference between kickers in the NFL is so ridiculously small that wasting a draft pick on one is silly (6th or 7th round picks I can live with).


Bring on Battlestar Gramatica!!!

I agree the career thing isn't a big factor...but another thing to bring in is that brown has been clutch in his career. Brown has consistantly kicked to the goalline in his career. Brown has never missed inside of the 30. These are all things that we haven't seem to have here in forever.

Who was the last kicker in big d to be Consistant on KO's/Consistant inside the 30/Clutch/Have the leg to kick 55+?

I agree...be our man Gramatican

[FinChase]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

We should wait a few years and then draft South carolina's stud, Ryan Succop.

If nothing else, we could have a lot of fun with that last name. :D

[dan77733]

I'm somewhat surprised that Vanderjagt was let go at this time. If anything, I was expecting him to get released in the off-season. Vanderjagt was missing some easy kicks but let's say, he would have finished the season, 22 of 27. That's not bad at all. His problem that he kept kicking the ball too much to his right. He needed to pull the ball inside more to the left and he would probably still have his job.

Signing Gramatica isnt much better. After all, isnt he the one who broke his leg after jumping up and down after making a FG? And what the hell happened to his brother Bill? The only real negative about Vanderjagt was his short kickoffs.

One thing is for sure, Gramatica better not miss any FG's on Sunday or we may be having another conversation like this one in a week from now.

And for the record, I would have went after Viniateri (sp?) in free agency instead of Vanderjagt to begin with but that's just me.

[thule]

Originally Posted by dan77733

I'm somewhat surprised that Vanderjagt was let go at this time. If anything, I was expecting him to get released in the off-season. Vanderjagt was missing some easy kicks but let's say, he would have finished the season, 22 of 27. That's not bad at all. His problem that he kept kicking the ball too much to his right. He needed to pull the ball inside more to the left and he would probably still have his job.

Signing Gramatica isnt much better. After all, isnt he the one who broke his leg after jumping up and down after making a FG? And what the hell happened to his brother Bill? The only real negative about Vanderjagt was his short kickoffs.

One thing is for sure, Gramatica better not miss any FG's on Sunday or we may be having another conversation like this one in a week from now.

And for the record, I would have went after Viniateri (sp?) in free agency instead of Vanderjagt to begin with but that's just me.

We tried....but he signed before we ever got to talk to him.

I believe it was bill who hurt himself from celebration.

[bigmac076]

Originally Posted by thule

We tried....but he signed before we ever got to talk to him.

I believe it was bill who hurt himself from celebration.

Im sure almost every Cowboys' fan in the country is happy to see the move. I don't know about anyone else, but everytime "Doink the clown" lined up for a FG, I would get sick to my stomach.