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Old 11-19-2008, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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Tank is a FA and who knows if he'll be back...i'd lean towards no.

Lots of Roy praise for not really doing anything yet. He was terrible in Detroit this year...he had a lot more drops than T.O. Could be uninspired play w/e but, he was horrible and hasnt been all that great throughout his career. He's had one good year. Great talent but, also very overrated. Hopefully, it all works out well, though. He has no more excuses.

Hamlin isnt going anywhere considering he just signed an enormous contract and Burnett is an FA who will most likely not be back.

Jenkins to FS is pointless...he has shut down corner skills and better feet than Newman. He could be one of the best in the league there, in a few years.

Play Carp where he belongs? hmm...Canada?
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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Great to see that Felix back in practice, even if it is light stuff, it is encouraging. Word is he will probably miss this weeks and the Thanksgiving game obviously, but could be ready for the Pitt game. Sounds good to me.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:34 PM    (permalink
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Lots of Roy praise for not really doing anything yet. He was terrible in Detroit this year...he had a lot more drops than T.O. Could be uninspired play w/e but, he was horrible and hasnt been all that great throughout his career. He's had one good year. Great talent but, also very overrated. Hopefully, it all works out well, though. He has no more excuses.
How inspired is Shaun Rogers playing this year?? That should answer your question, and Roy doesn't have weight issues or laziness as a knock on him...It's hard to really gauge players in Detroit, Roy has already shown glimpes of what he can provide this offense, he is itching to have his breakout game and just from his few plays you can see what he brings this team.


The jumpball TD vs Tampa, the way he can move the chains vs the Skins, he's never had a QB like Romo or the weapons we have either but we know the type of potential he is capable of, so when I see him dropping the ball here I'll be the first to call him on it.


But just as Rogers is playing his ass off, new scenery and a payday can do that for players, he's been surehanded every time we have gone his way, and I think he's just as talented as any #1 WR in this league.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Shaun Rogers still atleast played at a very high level in Detroit most of the time...and Roy does have issues w/ laziness and playing uninspired football. He took plays off all the time. He was a constant headache in Detroit. Also, his hands are just like T.O.'s as soon as he gets more looks you'll see him drop quite a few. Wasnt he leading the league in drops or right behind Braylon this year? Now, he could be great but, he seems to be getting a lot of undeserved praise every where i look. He's been one of the most overrated players in the game for a while...he can certainly shed that but, he hasnt done much in this league...except complain a lot and alienate himself from his teammates because, he was no longer in the limelight.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Shaun Rogers still atleast played at a very high level in Detroit most of the time...and Roy does have issues w/ laziness and playing uninspired football. He took plays off all the time. He was a constant headache in Detroit. Also, his hands are just like T.O.'s as soon as he gets more looks you'll see him drop quite a few. Now, he could be great but, he seems to be getting a lot of undeserved praise every where i look.
That's just not true, he was widely considered a lazy player who took plays off throughout the game, it was well documented and that was all you heard when they pulled that trade off...Again with an organization like Detroit I'm not willing to gauge a player and how he performed, same with Oakland, Rogers was considered a much more lazy player and has been a complete BEAST thus far, and his team isn't even in the playoff hunt.


Detroit hasn't seen this Shaun Rogers this year since probably 2004, we see this all the time from players.


I think you will see Roy's worth over the course of the season, and I think your underrating his play in the Tampa game or the impact it had, whens the last time we have even ran that play for TO? There isn't one WR on this team we run that play with, and that alone adds a new element to the team, that and the fact that he can catch underneath slants all game and turn them into first downs...He made the most out of very few looks and was the deciding td.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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That's just not true, he was widely considered a lazy player who took plays off throughout the game, it was well documented and that was all you heard when they pulled that trade off...Again with an organization like Detroit I'm not willing to gauge a player and how he performed, same with Oakland, Rogers was considered a much more lazy player and has been a complete BEAST thus far, and his team isn't even in the playoff hunt.


Detroit hasn't seen this Shaun Rogers this year since probably 2004, we see this all the time from players.


I think you will see Roy's worth over the course of the season, and I think your underrating his play in the Tampa game, whens the last time we have even ran that play for TO? There isn't one WR on this team we run that play with, and that alone adds a new element to the team, that and the fact that he can catch underneath slants all game and turn them into first downs.
A lazy Shaun Rogers was still a pretty effective player. Roy was just as lazy at times. Roy hasnt done anything yet...hell, all season. I think everyone should be holding off on the praise in this case.

Also, every big bodied WR in the league can run a fade route...and Roy Williams never draws double teams anymore so, he'll be a lot easier to find than T.O. Roy has talent...we all know that but, aside from one good year he has been an inconsistant, bad attitude player w/ mediocre hands. Probably should give it some time...and yes, Kitna is no Romo but, he did throw for consecutive 4,000 yard seasons w/ the Lions making Mike Furrey the recipient of 100 receptions one of those years. Roy's had plenty of chances to take his game to that next level but, he hasnt gotten there.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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Roy's had plenty of chances to take his game to that next level but, he hasnt gotten there.
In his 3rd year in the NFL his numbers were 82/1310/7.


In his two years before that he posted 8 TD's in both years, last year his 4th year it was obvious he was getting fazed out in favor of Calvin and he also hurt his knee that year so looking at stats don't do him any justice, his targets and looks dropped increasingly that year and it was obvious.


How much further does he need to go to get to the next level? Unless your looking at numbers I'm not, how many 1st rd WR's do you see that start off more productive then him in his first 3 years?


The list is thin if you want to find a WR that scored more then 23 TD's in their first 3 seasons, so I'm not really sure how much more productive the guy would have to be in Detroit of all places.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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In his 3rd year in the NFL his numbers were 82/1310/7.


In his two years before that he posted 8 TD's in both years, last year his 4th year it was obvious he was getting fazed out in favor of Calvin and he also hurt his knee that year so looking at stats don't do him any justice, his targets and looks dropped increasingly that year and it was obvious.


How much further does he need to go to get to the next level? Unless your looking at numbers I'm not, how many 1st rd WR's do you see that start off more productive then him in his first 3 years?


The list is thin if you want to find a WR that scored more then 23 TD's in their first 3 seasons, so I'm not really sure how much more productive the guy would have to be in Detroit of all places.
Roy has had one good year...he found the end zone as a red zone threat...that's great but, his drops and lack of yardage are very sub par for a #1 receiver. Again, he has been one of the most overrated players out there. He has mediocre-average hands, tends to disappear, and is terribly inconsistant. He's actually a lot like T.O. but, hasnt been able to put it all together like T.O. did. He's a good player but, he isnt even close to an elite level yet...he's more compliment than he is star.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Everyone knows where I stand on Roy from our Roy vs. Boldin discussion a few months ago...

But I'll support him and try to be optimistic because he's around long term. Let's hope Tony can turn him into a top flight receiver.

He and Austin, along with Witten and Bennett on the inside and Felix/Barber in the backfield should for a real formidable offense for the next 5-6 years at least.

EDIT: Assuming we find a LT for the future!
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Roy has had one good year...he found the end zone as a red zone threat...that's great but, his drops and lack of yardage are very sub par for a #1 receiver. Again, he has been one of the most overrated players out there. He has mediocre-average hands, tends to disappear, and is terribly inconsistant. He's actually a lot like T.O. but, hasnt been able to put it all together like T.O. did. He's a good player but, he isnt even close to an elite level yet...he's more compliment than he is star.

But your missing the point, his one good year was in his third season, did you want him to produce 1500 yards in his 2nd season? Geez, talk about holding a guy to high standards, but let's review:



Plaxico Burress through 2 years:

88 catches, 1281 yards, 6 TD's



TJ Houzmanzadeh through 2 years:

62 catches, 717 yards, 1 TD



Javon Walker through 2 years:

64 catches, 1035 yards, 10 TD's



Roddy White through 2 years:

59 catches, 952 yards, 3 TD's



Now Roy Williams through 2 yeras:

99 catches, 1504 yards, 16 TD's




Roy's 3rd year rivals every guy I have listed, and I could have went on forever and ever...I already mentioned the situation with his 4th year, but I'm not seeing where your going claiming he's had "one good year", I guess your just throwing his production his first 2 years out the window but judging from the track record of WR's in their first 2 years it shows in reality he's had FAR more then one good season.



I'm not mistaking him for Anquan Boldin here, or Larry Fitzgerald, he is not and I would certainly rather of had Boldin, but his stats are certainly impressive no matter how you try and view it...He's still a dominant WR in this league and anyone who comes in and scores 16 TD's his first two seasons is a dominant scoring threat that any team would love to have at WR.
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Where others begin to take off...Roy has done nothing in years 4 and 5. A great deal of people will tell you he got worse. He was having a pretty decent 07 but, his drops have continued to increase. He's good but, he hasnt been great. People talk about him as though he is some top 5 receiver but, he's not even close to that level...and given his inconstancies...he may never reach an elite status.

and most of us here knew it would take a while to get the ball rolling for Roy given the change of teams but...for catching 6 passes in 3 games, he sure is getting a little too much credit. I do think he's going to help us obviously...I'm just trying to point out that he really isnt as great as a lot of people think he is.
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:01 AM    (permalink
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Where others begin to take off...Roy has done nothing in years 4 and 5. A great deal of people will tell you he got worse. He was having a pretty decent 07 but, his drops have continued to increase. He's good but, he hasnt been great. People talk about him as though he is some top 5 receiver but, he's not even close to that level...and given his inconstancies...he may never reach an elite status.

and most of us here knew it would take a while to get the ball rolling for Roy given the change of teams but...for catching 6 passes in 3 games, he sure is getting a little too much credit. I do think he's going to help us obviously...I'm just trying to point out that he really isnt as great as a lot of people think he is.
I don't know how you are equating Roy's talent level to his stats in his first 3 games here. Roy is most certainly one of the top young talented WRs in the league. He's obviously new here and not yet entrenched in our offense. He obviously has not had any significant time to work with Romo. He's certainly not going to consistently put up #1 WR type stats in this offense until he is actually the #1 WR. I don't remember him dropping any passes yet. In fact, I think he's done a great job making tough catches. Clutch catches. This is absolutely crazy talk about doubting his potential to reach elite status. Give the guy a chance MOTH.

I can see how someone might want to compare his stats to the Zona WR duo (I know you didn't) since they are obviously the most prolific in the league right now. However, they don't have other great options... no TEs like ours, no RBs like ours...

I just think if we're going to go forward and judge Roy's talent to the numbers he will put up, there will be a lot of disappointed people and a lot of empty expectations. Right now he's in the role of a #2 WR in an offense with a lot of options. I would expect average #2 WR numbers. Some great games, some not so great, some average.
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how you are equating Roy's talent level to his stats in his first 3 games here. Roy is most certainly one of the top young talented WRs in the league. He's obviously new here and not yet entrenched in our offense. He obviously has not had any significant time to work with Romo. He's certainly not going to consistently put up #1 WR type stats in this offense until he is actually the #1 WR. I don't remember him dropping any passes yet. In fact, I think he's done a great job making tough catches. Clutch catches. This is absolutely crazy talk about doubting his potential to reach elite status. Give the guy a chance MOTH.

I can see how someone might want to compare his stats to the Zona WR duo (I know you didn't) since they are obviously the most prolific in the league right now. However, they don't have other great options... no TEs like ours, no RBs like ours...

I just think if we're going to go forward and judge Roy's talent to the numbers he will put up, there will be a lot of disappointed people and a lot of empty expectations. Right now he's in the role of a #2 WR in an offense with a lot of options. I would expect average #2 WR numbers. Some great games, some not so great, some average.
I'm not getting in to this but how has Williams had any clutch catches?
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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I'm not getting in to this but how has Williams had any clutch catches?
Every catch is clutch. ;) Obviously, he hasn't had any clutch catches as far as winning superbowls like David Tyree (hahahahhaha), but he's done everything asked of him and he's made some very nice catches.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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I'm not getting in to this but how has Williams had any clutch catches?
against Tampa before halftime was clutch IMO.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:35 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how you are equating Roy's talent level to his stats in his first 3 games here. Roy is most certainly one of the top young talented WRs in the league. He's obviously new here and not yet entrenched in our offense. He obviously has not had any significant time to work with Romo. He's certainly not going to consistently put up #1 WR type stats in this offense until he is actually the #1 WR. I don't remember him dropping any passes yet. In fact, I think he's done a great job making tough catches. Clutch catches. This is absolutely crazy talk about doubting his potential to reach elite status. Give the guy a chance MOTH.

I can see how someone might want to compare his stats to the Zona WR duo (I know you didn't) since they are obviously the most prolific in the league right now. However, they don't have other great options... no TEs like ours, no RBs like ours...

I just think if we're going to go forward and judge Roy's talent to the numbers he will put up, there will be a lot of disappointed people and a lot of empty expectations. Right now he's in the role of a #2 WR in an offense with a lot of options. I would expect average #2 WR numbers. Some great games, some not so great, some average.
You got me wrong...Firstly, I wasnt equating his talent level based on his three games here. I dont know where you got that...I even said, it would take him a long while to get up to speed. I guage the player on his career in Detroit which wasnt the greatest and he was regressing. His drops have increased every year and these past two years have reached alarming numbers. I'll obviously give him a chance and want him to do well. I'm just saying there are a great deal of people out there that think this guy is for sure a #1 guy, a top 5 receiver type...but, that is not what he has been. A side from that one top notch year...he's just been an inconsistant target w/ a dropping problem. Lions fans have been asking for his head since the end of 2006. An overrated player outside of Detroit...that's what i was getting at. A good player but, I wouldnt call him great...not yet atleast, he's just far too inconsistant. I wish him the best...the guy is here to stay and will surely be our got guy down the line. Of course I want him to do well. But, I'm not going to sugar coat things.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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Roy gives us another dimension because he can make the athletic/spectacular catches like Fitzgerald (he already had a 1 handed circus catch).
I'm with LL about him: look at Randy Moss, he looked like a washed up player in Oakland, and Detroit is very similar to Oakland. Roy Williams didn't want to play for the Lions anymore and you're not gonna play well if you don't have any motivation. But I simply don't see him quit on the Cowboys because he's a Texas guy, he always wanted to play in Dallas and he has the chance to win something.
He already show his potential in Detroit, his 3rd season was no fluke. He won't be as good as Fitz but he could be the same type of player. And I wouldn't count TO on the down side just yet, I think he's gonna have a helluva second half of the season.
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Old 11-20-2008, 03:15 AM    (permalink
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You got me wrong...Firstly, I wasnt equating his talent level based on his three games here. I dont know where you got that...I even said, it would take him a long while to get up to speed. I guage the player on his career in Detroit which wasnt the greatest and he was regressing. His drops have increased every year and these past two years have reached alarming numbers. I'll obviously give him a chance and want him to do well. I'm just saying there are a great deal of people out there that think this guy is for sure a #1 guy, a top 5 receiver type...but, that is not what he has been. A side from that one top notch year...he's just been an inconsistant target w/ a dropping problem. Lions fans have been asking for his head since the end of 2006. An overrated player outside of Detroit...that's what i was getting at. A good player but, I wouldnt call him great...not yet atleast, he's just far too inconsistant. I wish him the best...the guy is here to stay and will surely be our got guy down the line. Of course I want him to do well. But, I'm not going to sugar coat things.
Sugar coat things? Wow MOTH. You're my boy and all, but you sound like a bonafide Roy Williams hater dude.

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Old 11-20-2008, 03:36 AM    (permalink
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Roy gives us another dimension because he can make the athletic/spectacular catches like Fitzgerald (he already had a 1 handed circus catch).
I'm with LL about him: look at Randy Moss, he looked like a washed up player in Oakland, and Detroit is very similar to Oakland. Roy Williams didn't want to play for the Lions anymore and you're not gonna play well if you don't have any motivation. But I simply don't see him quit on the Cowboys because he's a Texas guy, he always wanted to play in Dallas and he has the chance to win something.
He already show his potential in Detroit, his 3rd season was no fluke. He won't be as good as Fitz but he could be the same type of player. And I wouldn't count TO on the down side just yet, I think he's gonna have a helluva second half of the season.
You guys bring up good points. You really can't compare the player he was in Detroit and use it as an indicator for what he will be here now and in the future. There are so many different variables, it's insane to even think about predicting his future success.

It's pretty easy to criticize the guy in years 4 and 5 merely by looking at stats. Forget that Martz left the Lions and there was a new offensive system in place. Forget that Calvin Johnson's presence made a difference in reduced targets. Forget that the Lions coaching staff wanted to make Calvin their #1 WR. ...and on and on... Listening to guys criticize his year 5 is laughable. As laughable as the laughing stock that is the entire Detroit Lions team. Oh wait, Dan Orvlosky is the QB there, my bad. Roy Williams is a scrub for not putting up Pro Bowl numbers with a new incompetent QB throwing to him.

Oh and those Lions fans... hating him has nothing to do with the fact that he outwardly said he didn't want to be a Lion and then recalled that statement to save face. Nah, they just hate him because he's a regressing player who's expectations put on him were simply too high.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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Where others begin to take off...Roy has done nothing in years 4 and 5. A great deal of people will tell you he got worse. He was having a pretty decent 07.
Ummm Roy DID in fact take off after that 2nd year, his 3rd year was as good as any WR's 3rd year in the league, also as you said he was having a pretty decent year in 07, here are a few of his games in case you forgot early on:


7 catches, 111 yards, 1 TD
9 catches, 204 yards, 1 TD
7 catches, 47 yards, 2 TD's


He started his 4th year on a TEAR, so again I'm waiting to see why this guy isn't a bonafide #1 WR as you claim he isn't...He sure did start year 4 off great for a guy who got worse.


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I'm just saying there are a great deal of people out there that think this guy is for sure a #1 guy

How many #2 WR's have produced the way Roy Williams has to start his career MOTH?? Nobody is calling this guy a top 5 WR, but your SURELY underrating him alot, he produced his first 2 years just as well as any WR did to start their career, his 3rd year took off, was hurt in his 4th after starting off hot(which had he finished was on pace for 1200 yds and 8 TD's all the while getting less targets) and this is year 5 right here.


Calling him "inconsistent" in completely false no matter how you spin it, hell the guy had 8 TD's his rookie year, 8 his 2nd, 7 his breakout year, how much more consistent can you even be? He's proved as much as anyone and your purely overlooking everything he brings to the table and everything he has proven.


He is not inconsistent, he hasn't had one good year, and he IS a legit #1 WR no other way around it...If you want to judge a player by the effort he gave in Detroit so be it, but you know what that type of atmosphere does for a player, he just said an in interview the other day when he ran our 'Victory' formation it was the first time he ever ran it, Detroit never even practiced it...Fact is he showed his worth in the Tampa game already, and he's produced all while facing double teams, he's getting some undeserved flack from you all around.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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He also missed 5 games in his second year due to injury.
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:04 PM    (permalink
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You got me wrong...Firstly, I wasnt equating his talent level based on his three games here. I dont know where you got that...I even said, it would take him a long while to get up to speed. I guage the player on his career in Detroit which wasnt the greatest and he was regressing. His drops have increased every year and these past two years have reached alarming numbers. I'll obviously give him a chance and want him to do well. I'm just saying there are a great deal of people out there that think this guy is for sure a #1 guy, a top 5 receiver type...but, that is not what he has been. A side from that one top notch year...he's just been an inconsistant target w/ a dropping problem. Lions fans have been asking for his head since the end of 2006. An overrated player outside of Detroit...that's what i was getting at. A good player but, I wouldnt call him great...not yet atleast, he's just far too inconsistant. I wish him the best...the guy is here to stay and will surely be our got guy down the line. Of course I want him to do well. But, I'm not going to sugar coat things.
I don't wanna join the MOTH bashing...but I also have to disagree.

First of all people can think he is a for sure #1 guy. Why? How about because he has done it in his career....he has put up #1 numbers on a bad team...and his only real knock during those times were injuries. Drops have jumped the last two years...but until I see it translate to a problem in Dallas I'm willing to overlook it as a problem that was caused mentally in Detriot not in Dallas.

BTW who is calling or proclaiming that his is a top 5 guy or will be?
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Old 11-20-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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I don't want to put it like it's MOTH bashing, cause that's just mean. :p ..and we love MOTH.... but man, MOTH, thanks for trying to give us a different angle at this, but there's nothing to sugar coat, buddy.

Maybe it's a case of being spoiled by TO. TO has been a top 3 WR for years now, and since many here are thinking that Roy is the future incumbant as our #1 WR, that he has to fill those shoes. Well, in my opinion, he doesn't. He doesn't need to be a top 5 receiver. He doesn't even need to be considered elite for me to be satisfied with him. Can he be? I most certainly believe he's got what it takes, but now is not that time, so I don't think we should judge him as such. Right now, he just needs to fit into the puzzle, make plays when the ball is thrown his way and block. The time will come for him to be the main man in the lime light. Right now, if he can be one of the best #2 WRs in the league and I'll be thrilled with that. Help take the double coverages off TO. Help give us another legit threat at WR.

Seriously, right now... the way our offense is on paper, we have to be thrilled now more than ever! I mean c'mon... we're worried about OG and future starters! The thought of pairing TO with Roy opposite used to be a day dream for me. Now the day is here. I'm excited for this. I'm excited for our future!
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Felix is out for the season :(
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Old 11-20-2008, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Felix is out for the season :(
Official link? I'd heard some rumors that was the case due to a toe injury, but hadn't seen anything official.
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