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Old 11-24-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you on most of the points you made except for one, and the part I disagree with you on is the need for a WR. We are already can't figure out how to distribute the ball with the players we have and you wanna add another superstar WR? There comes a point in time where you have to many superstars on one team and we might be getting close to that. Most teams dream of having a group of skill players like Romo, Barber, TO, and Witten. WTF do we need another WR? I know you are thinking of the future, but are we just giving up on Austin, Stanback and Hurd?

It all comes to do whether you think the juice is worth the squeeze and I don't think it was.
If you're a GM, your eye always has to be on the future. You can't just live for today. So don't think like that. That is the exact reason Jerry went out and got Roy. He is the future. We could've made a play for him at the end of the year, but I'm happy Jerry jumped on the ball early. The earlier the better.

Out of Austin, Stanback and Hurd... only 1 maybe 2 at the most have a long term future with the team with or without Roy. You weren't thinking any of those guys were future #1s.... Were you?

And yes, a WR of that caliber was a need. A WR of lesser caliber was not a need. There's a difference. We have the latter. Just think, what if it was TO that was injured instead of Hurd or Austin? Without Hurd or Austin as it stands now, we're ok, we're still good to go. Without a guy like TO??? We need Roy or we'd be screwed, blued and tattooed. With TO and with Roy, we're golden.

Oh and I don't think ball distribution is a problem worth talking about. Is there negativity in adding weapons to your arsenal? Only thing I can think about which I pointed out earlier is how it affects the re-signing of future FAs... which I don't lose any sleep in because of the confidence I have in Jerry getting things accomplished in that department.

So... ball distribution? Not a problem. What happens to Austin, Hurd, Stanback? They fight it out. And the future IS very important and not something to disqualify.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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I really wish we would not have made the Roy Williams trade. We need help on the OL, DL, ILB, and S, and then we decide to give up 3 picks for a WR? I mean ya he will help the offense, but seriously was that something we needed? If you ask me I say no. If you can't have a good offense with Romo, Witten, Barber, TO, Crayton, and a solid OL then you should just kiss your ass goodbye and fire the offensive coordinator.

If you want to stay on top in the league you have to build through the draft. Giving up 3 picks for something that is just a perk is dumb. Jerry sacrificed long term success for his I want it now attitude when I don't even think it was necessary.
You realize had we not made that trade our WR's are TO, Patrick Crayton, and Practice Squad players? Talent or no talent that's not an enticing WR corps, if TO got hobbled for a few plays we would be through.


And I know D touched on it, but it's basically a 1st a 3rd, throw in how many picks we got from trading back last year, and the extra pick from Pacman suspension and our draft is still going to be a large draft, nothing similiar to Cleveland last year.


Look at it this way, Jerry wanted a WR, so if we were to draft in the 22-25 range, Jerry would think of moving up for let's say Crabtree for the local kid, it would cost at LEAST a 1st and 3rd to get into that range, and your still looking at development time and hoping you don't have a bust...Who wouldn't rather spend that 1st and 3rd on a proven 26 year old talent? I would every time, this is nothing like two 1st for Joey Galloway, and looking at what we have left in the draft I don't see any harm in it.


If TO gets hurt, or leaves in a few years, we will all be happy we made this deal, Roy's contract would of been alot higher had he been a Free Agent so the cost isn't concerning, look at what Donte Stallworth or Javon Walker got this off-season for no production.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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You realize had we not made that trade our WR's are TO, Patrick Crayton, and Practice Squad players? Talent or no talent that's not an enticing WR corps, if TO got hobbled for a few plays we would be through.


And I know D touched on it, but it's basically a 1st a 3rd, throw in how many picks we got from trading back last year, and the extra pick from Pacman suspension and our draft is still going to be a large draft, nothing similiar to Cleveland last year.


Look at it this way, Jerry wanted a WR, so if we were to draft in the 22-25 range, Jerry would think of moving up for let's say Crabtree for the local kid, it would cost at LEAST a 1st and 3rd to get into that range, and your still looking at development time and hoping you don't have a bust...Who wouldn't rather spend that 1st and 3rd on a proven 26 year old talent? I would every time, this is nothing like two 1st for Joey Galloway, and looking at what we have left in the draft I don't see any harm in it.


If TO gets hurt, or leaves in a few years, we will all be happy we made this deal, Roy's contract would of been alot higher had he been a Free Agent so the cost isn't concerning, look at what Donte Stallworth or Javon Walker got this off-season for no production.
I forgot about that 2 firsts for Galloway. Sheesh. Talk about cost comparison! Compared to the deals Jerry used to make.... The man has one thing going for him... He learns from his past mistakes.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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ehh you guys blow and I hate you all! :p

Maybe I just like the draft to much, and I want more picks to play with.
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Old 11-24-2008, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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ehh you guys blow and I hate you all! :p

Maybe I just like the draft to much, and I want more picks to play with.
We still have 7 left. That's as much as any draft normally would start off with.

You had interesting points, but I'm glad we had that discussion. Don't worry, if you stay here long enough, you'll be completely brain washed. hahaa. :p
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Old 11-24-2008, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?
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Old 11-24-2008, 11:21 PM    (permalink
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Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?
For the Wild Card I believe it is conference record. You have lost to the Rams, Giants, Cardinals and Redskins. I'm not sure who the Skins losses are. I know the Giants, Rams, Cowboys, and maybe an AFC team.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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Actually, isn't it division record for teams coming from the same division? I believe it is...but maybe that is only with respect to the divisional winner.


As for the RW thing....its been a move that I was against, but something that will likely end up being a great move in the long run. The only way it hurts us long term is if the cap implications are such that we are unable to retain a key player or two because of the deal we gave Roy. Since the NFL's cap system is so damn complicated, there is no way of knowing whether this is the case or not until after the fact, so it doesn't even merit debating at this point. Up to now, Jerry has been able to figure it all out, so he's earned the benefit of the doubt on that count.


Short term, I really don't see him being that much of an upgrade over the Hurd/Austin combo that would be working in his place anyway. Since he's been here, I have only seen him make one game changing play that Patrick or Miles couldn't have made, and that was his TD against Tampa that basically won us the game. Nice, but for a 1st and a 3rd along with 45m, I'm not that impressed. I am interested as to why we didn't just wait until the off season to get it done, where we could have gotten him integrated into our offense without a season full of angst and irritation, and possibly signed him without having to provide any compensation at all (though that is admittedly unlikely).

All told, unless there is a TO injury situation like we saw last year, Roy's real value to this team won't really start to show up until, most likely, 2010. At that time he'll finally be taking over the reins from TO as the teams go-to threat and hopefully be able to hold the position down well enough to keep this offense clicking on all cylinders. One thing I do agree on is that its usually better to go about acquiring big time WRs via FA or trade than through the draft. It looks great when you hit big on one, but the bust ratio is probably higher than any other single position, and the development time involved is often as many as 3 years. Its just a mess I am happy to avoid. I didn't like the deal, but I certainly can understand it.
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Old 11-25-2008, 03:38 AM    (permalink
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Why is Washington still in front of us in the wild card race? We're both 7-4 and we split the series. What's the tie-breaker here?
After head2head it becomes Conference record. We are at 5-4 in conference while the Skins are 6-3

http://www.nfl.com/standings/tiebreakingprocedures

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TO BREAK A TIE WITHIN A DIVISION
If, at the end of the regular season, two or more clubs in the same division finish with identical won-lost-tied percentages, the following steps will be taken until a champion is determined.

Two Clubs
Head-to-head (best won-lost-tied percentage in games between the clubs).
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the division.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in common games.
Best won-lost-tied percentage in games played within the conference.
Strength of victory.
Strength of schedule.
Best combined ranking among conference teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best combined ranking among all teams in points scored and points allowed.
Best net points in common games.
Best net points in all games.
Best net touchdowns in all games.
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Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine
Short term, I really don't see him being that much of an upgrade over the Hurd/Austin combo that would be working in his place anyway. Since he's been here, I have only seen him make one game changing play that Patrick or Miles couldn't have made, and that was his TD against Tampa that basically won us the game. Nice, but for a 1st and a 3rd along with 45m, I'm not that impressed. I am interested as to why we didn't just wait until the off season to get it done, where we could have gotten him integrated into our offense without a season full of angst and irritation, and possibly signed him without having to provide any compensation at all (though that is admittedly unlikely).
Given where we were at when we made the trade. We were looking at a season that was fading before our very eyes. So we make a trade which won't truly show significant signs until next year. But his name and what he brings to the team was enough to spark us a win against the Bucs... Which helped get us over the hump. If we think as you do that it will take an offseason to see him in full action for us. Then everything we get from him this season is icing on top. Plus we won't have to wait until midway through next season before he starts showing up. He's learning easy stuff now(which he would be learning in the offseason.) By the time next season starts he should be at his best...

I really liked making the move when we did. He can impact this season and we didn't have to pay the price we were looking at before the last draft(2 consecutive first rounders) It also helped to get us through a really tough portion of the season.
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Old 11-25-2008, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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Roy Williams better make an impact this year. Otherwise we could have waited for him to become a FA and signed him to the same contract without giving up 3 draft picks.

Make no mistake, Jerry was anticipating results this year. Hopefully they start clicking.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:46 PM    (permalink
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Roy Williams better make an impact this year. Otherwise we could have waited for him to become a FA and signed him to the same contract without giving up 3 draft picks.

Make no mistake, Jerry was anticipating results this year. Hopefully they start clicking.
Errrm... Wrong Burns. The Lions would've traded him before he hit FA. So that thought doesn't really work. On the other hand, getting him now versus in the offseason gives him an earlier start to gel and get acquainted... not to mention... help us now.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Romo is off a bit...w/ the hand but, the way he is buying time and throwing while running has been excellent. He also looks rather sharp in the decision making department...except for the backward pass to Choice and one scary one he forced to Roy Williams. Oh yeah, that deep ball looks beautiful as well. Now, he'll have some bad throws but, I actually feel much more confident in Romo today than i did earlier in the season when he still had the numbers but, a very lowered morale. For playing w/ a bum finger...he and his overall precense have been impressive. Romo's restored confidence and attitude have really helped rejuvinate a struggling passing attack. They should just continue to gel w/ more time.

I saw some film breakdown and he looked even more impressive, on a few of those deep balls to TO he looked off the safety to the left then came back right before he threw, the TD to TO was vintage Romo in that the line didn't even have proper protection, funny thing is with any other QB that's a sack and it looks bad on our line but with Romo he can make things out of nothing...He avoided 2 players who had beat their block and bought enough time to find TO deep, and his touch is there again.


Showed me that our line is still struggling at times, and of course it gets magnified with another QB back there and overlooked when Tony is back at QB...We have alot of injuries but as much talent as we have it's no excuse, I am excited to see our offense vs Baltimore, Giants, and the Steelers this next month to see how well we are really clicking.
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Old 11-25-2008, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Roy Williams better make an impact this year. Otherwise we could have waited for him to become a FA and signed him to the same contract without giving up 3 draft picks.
There is probably a 1% chance we would of gotten Roy for the same price tag in Free Agency when other teams would be in a bidding war for his services....I'm pretty sure Roy would of collected more, and I'm not expecting huge stats or results because of how many playmakers we have, I just hope when teams start shifting coverage to TO Romo starts to find Roy in those single coverages.
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Old 11-25-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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Can't wait to see what he writes after this game.
http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/ar...the-49ers.html

I wish they would source me in their articles but here you go ......
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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There is probably a 1% chance we would of gotten Roy for the same price tag in Free Agency when other teams would be in a bidding war for his services....I'm pretty sure Roy would of collected more, and I'm not expecting huge stats or results because of how many playmakers we have, I just hope when teams start shifting coverage to TO Romo starts to find Roy in those single coverages.
I liked the trade for one reason only -- to get rid of TO in the future.

But there is a 1% chance anyone else would have given Williams anything beyond what Jones provided. Williams was not even a #1 in Detroit anymore and he is the most expensive #2 in the history of the NFL.

We have up a boatload for a guy we could have gotten this past off season for a #1. Instead we gave up 3 picks in mid-season b/c Jones is a "Big Name Ho" with no faith in the staff's ability to develop a young guy.

I mean, Jerry, was the guy who STILL thought Bledsoe was the answer even after BP shat canned him for Romo. This says everything that can be said over his player personnel skills IMHO.

We have not have a clue how to evaluate internal talent and systematically over-rate other teams' players/talent. Drew Henson anyone?
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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After head2head it becomes Conference record. We are at 5-4 in conference while the Skins are 6-3.
I've done quite a bit of reading on the tiebreaking procedures (they could be HUGE this season), and here's what I've determined. Since it's unlikely we'll win the division, I'll concern myself mainly with the wild card.

-The first tie breaker is always head-to-head. So that means we split with Washington, we're up right now on Philly, and win against TB and Green Bay. The other contenders we haven't played and won't play.

-The second tie breaker, for a wild card berth depends on the circumstances. If the two teams seeking to break a tie are from the same division, then the second factor is division record:

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TO BREAK A TIE FOR THE WILD-CARD TEAM
If it is necessary to break ties to determine the two Wild-Card clubs from each conference, the following steps will be taken.

If the tied clubs are from the same division, apply division tie breaker.
If the tied clubs are from different divisions, apply the following steps.
If not, then conference record is the second tie breaker. Our conference record is currently 5-4; the Skins are at 6-3, the Falcons and Panthers 5-3, the Bears also 5-4, the Vikings 4-3, and the Saints 3-4. Since our division record is 2-2, as is the Redskins', then the third intra-division tiebreaker is applied (conference record).

-If, persay, we end the season tied with the multiple teams for the wildcard spot, then the first tiebreaker that is broken is within the division. So our head-to-head matchup with Washington will count (but will not break the tie), then our division records will be matched up. Both the Cowboys and Redskins each play the Giants and Eagles in these last 5 weeks, so whoever wins more of those two games carries a tiebreaking advantage. If the division records are the same, then the team with the best conference record advances in the tie-breaking.

Ok, I think that pretty much settles the ground rules. Now for some conclusions:

-To get into the playoffs, we're going to have to finish ahead of at least one (of the big three teams from the NFC South. That team is pretty obviously Atlanta, which not only is, I think in all of our opinions the weakest of the three contenders, but also seems to have the hardest schedule (@SD, @NO, TB, @MIN, STL). Only one of those games should be easy wins for the Falcons...I think at best they end up at 10-6 (although if they continue to play the way they did against Carolina it could be a different story).

The next easiest team to catch theoretically would be Tampa, since we're a game back of them and have essentially an extra half-game on them due to the now seemingly crucial Brad Johnson victory match. But not so fast. Tampa now has a division lead on Carolina, thanks to their earlier season win over the Panthers. The two teams play each other December 8th, and if Carolina wins, then the teams should essentially be even (assuming Tampa wins this weak against NO, and Carolina against GB) due to their split head-to-head record and identical division mark. The Bucs would still have a half game conference record lead, which might prove crucial as Carolina faces both the Giants and the Saints away from home the last two weeks of the season. Remember, in order for our tie-breaker with the Buccs to become active, we need them to NOT win the division tie-breaker, so that Tampa is in contention for a wild card spot, not already in possession of a division title. It is entirely possible that we are positioned better than Tampa Bay, but still don't make the playoffs, since our tie-breaker is not against them.

That being said, Carolina and Washington must be the teams we keep in our sights. Carolina has one of the toughest remaining schedules (@GB, TB, DEN, @NYG, @NO) and they've played like crap the last 3 weeks. If they win 3 games, and I'd expect one of those to be against non-conference Denver, then their conference record would be 7-5 and stand at 11-5 on the season. If we somehow also got to 11-5, even if we lost to the Giants, our conference record would also be 7-5, moving us to the 4th tiebreaker--strength of victory--which is almost impossible to project or calculate.

Bottom line, we need some help to get into the playoffs. The best thing we can do obviously is to win out, but if we can't do that, then our most important goals must be beating the Giants and Eagles so that we gain two more conference wins and two more division wins.

I hope that clears things up.
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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There is probably a 1% chance we would of gotten Roy for the same price tag in Free Agency when other teams would be in a bidding war for his services....I'm pretty sure Roy would of collected more, and I'm not expecting huge stats or results because of how many playmakers we have, I just hope when teams start shifting coverage to TO Romo starts to find Roy in those single coverages.
I think you make a good point. I think in a year or two, when some of these FA contracts by WR are signed, we'll actually be getting RW for a bargain.
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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The Lions 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt would have franchised RW if they hadn't traded him by the deadline. You can count on that. Young players like him simply do not get on the UFA market anymore except under the most unusual of circumstances, and even then they almost always have already been tagged at least once and worked out a deal with their old team that prohibited them from being tagged again. There is no way in hell that we would have gotten a shot at signing RW in UFA. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know the NFL.
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Old 11-25-2008, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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I liked the trade for one reason only -- to get rid of TO in the future.

But there is a 1% chance anyone else would have given Williams anything beyond what Jones provided. Williams was not even a #1 in Detroit anymore and he is the most expensive #2 in the history of the NFL.

We have up a boatload for a guy we could have gotten this past off season for a #1. Instead we gave up 3 picks in mid-season b/c Jones is a "Big Name Ho" with no faith in the staff's ability to develop a young guy.

I mean, Jerry, was the guy who STILL thought Bledsoe was the answer even after BP shat canned him for Romo. This says everything that can be said over his player personnel skills IMHO.

We have not have a clue how to evaluate internal talent and systematically over-rate other teams' players/talent. Drew Henson anyone?
See the reason I don't value your opinion much is because you let your emotions control your logic.

There's no reason to think that TO hurts this team, yet you will label him a problem because you don't like something about him.

Roy was going to get #1 WR type money in FA. You'd be a fool to think anything else. Anquan Boldin is a #2 receiver. If he hits FA, do you think he'll be paid like a #2 WR? Where's your logic at? Guys don't get paid for where they were on the depth chart, they get paid according to talent. Michael Turner was a backup... Did he get paid like a back up by ATL? I think you should rethink your logic.

As far as developing talent... What do you think is a good percentage rate when you look across the board at all teams? When you look at our team, do you find a bunch of high paid FA imports or do you see homegrown talent? Hmm.... Big Name Ho??? The only high priced FA pick ups we have are Leonard Davis, TO, Roy, Henry and Hamlin... The rest of the team is homegrown or cheap FA labor! Someone needs to get a clue. How can we be so poor at developing talent considering what we have in these players: Romo, Barber, Felix, Choice, Anderson, Gurode, Flozell, Austin, Hurd, Witten, Bennett, Spears, Canty, Ratliff, Ware, Burnett, James, Carpenter, Ellis, Spencer, Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, Watkins, Williams? ...Yet Jerry is an idiot who only spends talent to bring in Big Name Ho's to get his job done?

You wanna bring up Drew Henson... lmao. Every GM has a Drew Henson story or worse.

You can say Jerry hasn't won a playoff game or SB with that roster, but you can't say we only have a team of high priced FA acquisitions and don't know how to develop talent. Again, I just see someone tying emotional hatred to Jerry to justify their logic.

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Old 11-25-2008, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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You're fooling yourself if you think that no one would've given Roy this contract. Call me back in the offseason when a borderline #2 receiver will get a bigger contract. Javon Walker got a 55 milion dollars contract for god's sake! Lee Evans got a big contract for being a deep threat.
Contracts numbers rise every year in the NFL. I still remember when anyone was bashing Jerry Jones for the contract he gave to Bigg Davis.
And anyway, even if we overpayed for Roy why are you so upset? Is he stealing your money? No, Jerry Jones is paying him. So as long as tthe contract doesn't hurt the team and you're able to stay under the cap (and we've been very very good in cap management) I have no problem with spending the big money. It's Jerry Jones' money, not mine.
Look at the Redskins. Every year we say they're screwed, they got no cap space, they need to cut a lot of players but every year they're able to keep the guys they want and even add some FAs.
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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As far as developing talent... What do you think is a good percentage rate when you look across the board at all teams? When you look at our team, do you find a bunch of high paid FA imports or do you see homegrown talent? Hmm.... Big Name Ho??? The only high priced FA pick ups we have are Leonard Davis, TO, Roy, Henry and Hamlin... The rest of the team is homegrown or cheap FA labor! Someone needs to get a clue. How can we be so poor at developing talent considering what we have in these players: Romo, Barber, Felix, Choice, Anderson, Gurode, Flozell, Austin, Hurd, Witten, Bennett, Spears, Canty, Ratliff, Ware, Burnett, James, Carpenter, Ellis, Spencer, Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, Watkins, Williams? ...Yet Jerry is an idiot who only spends talent to bring in Big Name Ho's to get his job done?

You wanna bring up Drew Henson... lmao. Every GM has a Drew Henson story or worse.

You can say Jerry hasn't won a playoff game or SB with that roster, but you can't say we only have a team of high priced FA acquisitions and don't know how to develop talent. Again, I just see someone tying emotional hatred to Jerry to justify their logic.
I don't disagree. They all have their hits and misses. It's just really frustrating when your ability to function as an offense is dependent upon a guard! There really is no excuse for not having a servicable guard. Imagine what would happen if Flo, Geroude or Columbo went down.
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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I don't disagree. They all have their hits and misses. It's just really frustrating when your ability to function as an offense is dependent upon a guard! There really is no excuse for not having a servicable guard. Imagine what would happen if Flo, Geroude or Columbo went down.
I'm confused. What makes you think our offense is dependent on a Guard?
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Can anybody remind me if there is a guy we drafted and then let go that is flourishing elsewhere? I can't think of anyone. Is there someone we should be kicking ourselves over for letting go?
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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I can only think of Jimmy Smith the WR who was good in Jacksonville, but that was a while ago.
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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I'm confused. What makes you think our offense is dependent on a Guard?

Not totally, but have you seen the numbers when Kosier is in versus out? I know he's not the only factor, but there is a correlation.

No, I can't think of anyone we've let go, but we've drafted several linemen, as well as the trade, and not one of them can beat out Proctor (UFA) that is barely serviceable.

Now this from Wade's press conf.:

Montrae Holland might start Thursday

Tim MacMahon
Wade Phillips seemed to pooh-pooh the idea of Montrae Holland starting at left guard instead of Cory Procter yesterday. Now, the Cowboys are seriously considering starting Holland, who got some first-team reps during today's light practice.

"We like Holland," Phillips said. "We liked him when he got him. It's taken a little while for him to blend in and meld and know what to do. I think it's time to play him a little more, especially with [Kyle] Kosier out."

Phillips made it sound like the Cowboys could make a decision tomorrow on whether Kosier will have season-ending surgery on his foot. They're waiting on a second opinion.
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