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Old 11-25-2008, 04:41 PM    (permalink
Macarthur
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I'm confused. What makes you think our offense is dependent on a Guard?
Here's few items from the DMN blog on Kyle: From footballoutsiders.com

1. The Cowboys expect to get three key players other than Tony Romo back after the bye (CB Terence Newman, RB Felix Jones, LG Kyle Kosier). Of those three, which one have they missed the most?

This is a tough one. I'm going to rank them Newman, Kosier, Jones in order of importance. Jones is like the dry rub on a good steak -- useful, sure, but if it's a good steak, you don't need him.

Kosier is going to be a huge help to this team in pass blocking, and I say that as someone who thought of him as the weak point of the line. Last week against the Giants, Steve Spagnuolo's scheme virtually revolved around getting Tuck (who had one of the best games you'll see a defensive lineman have) matched up one-on-one against Cory Procter, mostly on stunts and twists where Procter would have to handle Tuck by himself with a head of steam. The result was not pretty. Procter was directly responsible for Tuck's first sack and a half, and if I remember correctly, he was the last guy to try and block Tuck before the nonsense Roughing the Passer penalty that Tuck took later on in the game. He's better in the running game, but he's an absolute liability in pass protection and the Giants took advantage of it. He doesn't have the footwork to be a guard.



http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/ar...ing-for-f.html

http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/ar...come-when.html

I don't think it's a coinsciedence.
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Old 11-25-2008, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Can anybody remind me if there is a guy we drafted and then let go that is flourishing elsewhere? I can't think of anyone. Is there someone we should be kicking ourselves over for letting go?
We didnt let go of Fasano, but he is doing well. Miami got a good deal in that trade imo.

Ken Norton JR. did well after we let him go as well.
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Old 11-25-2008, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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We didnt let go of Fasano, but he is doing well. Miami got a good deal in that trade imo.

Ken Norton JR. did well after we let him go as well.
We traded Fasano, so that's not really one. I guess I'm trying to figure out if Jerry has made any mistakes in letting guys go for nothing. He can't be 100% can he? I guess that's why I feel safe in knowing that he'll lock up guys that are important to us.
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Old 11-25-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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I'm excited to see what Montrae Holland brings this week.
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Old 11-25-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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See the reason I don't value your opinion much is because you let your emotions control your logic.

There's no reason to think that TO hurts this team, yet you will label him a problem because you don't like something about him.

Roy was going to get #1 WR type money in FA. You'd be a fool to think anything else. Anquan Boldin is a #2 receiver. If he hits FA, do you think he'll be paid like a #2 WR? Where's your logic at? Guys don't get paid for where they were on the depth chart, they get paid according to talent. Michael Turner was a backup... Did he get paid like a back up by ATL? I think you should rethink your logic.

As far as developing talent... What do you think is a good percentage rate when you look across the board at all teams? When you look at our team, do you find a bunch of high paid FA imports or do you see homegrown talent? Hmm.... Big Name Ho??? The only high priced FA pick ups we have are Leonard Davis, TO, Roy, Henry and Hamlin... The rest of the team is homegrown or cheap FA labor! Someone needs to get a clue. How can we be so poor at developing talent considering what we have in these players: Romo, Barber, Felix, Choice, Anderson, Gurode, Flozell, Austin, Hurd, Witten, Bennett, Spears, Canty, Ratliff, Ware, Burnett, James, Carpenter, Ellis, Spencer, Newman, Jenkins, Scandrick, Watkins, Williams? ...Yet Jerry is an idiot who only spends talent to bring in Big Name Ho's to get his job done?

You wanna bring up Drew Henson... lmao. Every GM has a Drew Henson story or worse.

You can say Jerry hasn't won a playoff game or SB with that roster, but you can't say we only have a team of high priced FA acquisitions and don't know how to develop talent. Again, I just see someone tying emotional hatred to Jerry to justify their logic.
D-Unit, give me a break.

1) Jerry Jones does not have the patience or intelligence to develop talent. My read is part of it is that he is impatient. Part that he values press clippings and draft slot too much -- he usually wiffs on undrafted guys. Part of it also is that he does not know how to find players for schemes / philosophy.

Let me give you one name to chew on -- of many -- Abram Elam. Hurd or Austin will suffer similar in that they came with no fan fare, started making plays, but Jerry had to get big name b/c he has no faith or the vision to see it. Carpenter will also go somewhere else and do well once his contract is done.

2) With respect to the names you mentioned above, um most of those guys are BP developed and yes there are a few busts not in the list. But hello, last year's class is dud so far except for the KICKER!!!!! And please spare me Spencer, underwhelming.

From this year, Scandrick and Jenkins are unknown at this time but could be fantastic. Felix is a keeper -- score one for Jones. Bennett might be very good but we threw Fasano in the garbage to do that. Not surprisingly, Fasano seems to be pretty damn good in Miami.

Find me a late round find or a guy from a PS that developed. Find me a Ratliff in Jerry;'s hands? Find me a Romo in Jerry's hands? Adalius Thomas? Chris Horton? Find me one in all his years outside of BP and Jimmie. ZERO. Big fat ZERO. Ellis was an 8 pick and Flo an early 2nd.

3) TO does hurt this team b/c we force the ball to him and only stupid teams allow him to have 49er type games. As soon as we see a good D the Offense grinds to a halt b/c 80% of the passing game revolves around TO and he gets shut down EASILY in Bump/Safety coverage.

We always talk empty words about all our talent yet we manage to ignore them most of the game. I dunno but I watched Sunday and I walked away seeing that we are going to have big problems come December versus the better Defense.

Our running revert to between the tackles with Deon as the lead blocker. Our passing game revolved around waiting for TO to get open 40 yards downfield. Romo was throwing the ball poorly in the pocket. The OL was again sloppy. Garrett/Romo did nothing to get Witten, Bennett or Williams involved in the vertical passing game, pass blocking and run blocking where poor .... which explains all the field goals i spite of big plays and some great field position.

4) Outside of Cowboy fans most folks in the NFL consider GM Jones to be a less senile and less talented Al Davis. As an Owner he is wonderful -- he gives fannies what they want -- like what a pusher does to his junkies to keep them coming back.

Never ceases to amaze me the lengths many fans go to "support the team" by willfully ignoring the problems and pumping every decision the team makes like some Cheerleader squad.

At least Meatball is running the Defense much better than Stewart .... hopefully that is enough to carry us into the NFC Championship Game v the G-Men. We are talented enuff to get there at least.

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Old 11-25-2008, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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The Lions 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt would have franchised RW if they hadn't traded him by the deadline. You can count on that. Young players like him simply do not get on the UFA market anymore except under the most unusual of circumstances, and even then they almost always have already been tagged at least once and worked out a deal with their old team that prohibited them from being tagged again. There is no way in hell that we would have gotten a shot at signing RW in UFA. Anyone who thinks so doesn't know the NFL.
DMW -- Don't you think an unusual circumstance might be the lions?

I mean you have Megatron, you have holes EVERYWHERE else on your team. They are not solid at 1 position.

I don't think it is far fetched at all to imagine the lions letting Roy Williams talk. Why tie up money in 2 WR's when the rest of your team blows?

It's not like we're talking Boldin+Fitz making a playoff run with a solid team here, we're talkin the lions.

I just think they would have let him walk. The only reason I could see them franchising him is to hold him as trade bait for someone else.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Hollands fat enough to at least not get pushed backwards like Proctor. He can't be much worse. Let's hope he's an upgrade.
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Old 11-25-2008, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Well lets just hope he's in decent enough shape by now...Holland is a pretty solid player when he isnt carrying all that extra weight around.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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Let me give you one name to chew on -- of many -- Abram Elam. Hurd or Austin will suffer similar in that they came with no fan fare, started making plays, but Jerry had to get big name b/c he has no faith or the vision to see it. Carpenter will also go somewhere else and do well once his contract is done.
Seee Bob, you're not objective AT ALL. You hate "Jerry the GM" and so you base your judgments on that. You didn't answer what D asked you. Because the answer would be: no one.
The only guy we let go who's having some limited success is Elam (and I say limited because also Erik Coleman looked good for the Jets playing next to Rhodes). So where's the patience-no faith-vision argument? You're dead wrong.
Hurd is gonna have success? We don't know. We also don't know if we're going to let Austin go but you're willing to say that he's gonna have success elsewhere. And you're fooling yourself if you think Carpenter can find any type of success in this league. You can't be a good football player if you don't like contact. Carpenter is scared and play scared. He played one good game in his career and he can't even play in our nickel or dime package.

So answer the questione once again, which player we let go is now having success for another team? I'm not asking which player YOU THINK will have success for another team.
And Fasano is not having that breakout of a season. He's averaging 30 yards a game, not to mention one of his TD came off a wildcat play when no one covered him. What I'm saying is that Fasano wasn't that good in Dallas and that he would've not made any of the plays Martellus has made so far.

And I don't get your logic. You say that Jerry has no faith in his players but you complain that we resign our players instead of letting the young guys play.
So I guess you think resigning Witten was a bad move since we had Fasano? Why resign Ware when you have Spencer? Why resign Newman when we have Scandrick and Jenkins? Why we gave that contract to Marion when we could've drafted his replacement?
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:32 AM    (permalink
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Ehm, speaking of high payed WR, Michael freaking Jenkins just got a 4 years 20 millions contract. Yes, a guy with a career high in receiving yards of 532 is making 5M $ a year.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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Ehm, speaking of high payed WR, Michael freaking Jenkins just got a 4 years 20 millions contract. Yes, a guy with a career high in receiving yards of 532 is making 5M $ a year.
Great point! This is a guy who many are calling a bust.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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D-Unit, give me a break.

1) Jerry Jones does not have the patience or intelligence to develop talent. My read is part of it is that he is impatient. Part that he values press clippings and draft slot too much -- he usually wiffs on undrafted guys. Part of it also is that he does not know how to find players for schemes / philosophy.
Wait a minute. Who's job is it to develop player's talent? Jerry's? If you believe that, then you've got this all twisted from the start. Isn't it nice how you build yourself a nice shelter with that logic? Jerry gets all the blame for poor player development and no credit for good player development (cause the coach gets all the credit. ie. Parcells). Wow.. How convenient is that stance?

Oh so Jerry, usually wiffs on undrafted guys? Name me a successful team made up of UDFAs! And again... name me the GM who makes the final calls on the UDFA roster cuts to the 53 man roster. Those are coaching calls. Blaming Jerry for wiffing on UDFAs. That's laughable. Why don't you blame him for putting up the money to get Austin when he had many other offers to take. Austin was one of the highest paid UDFAs that year. Jerry has always ponied up the money to get UDFAs that our coaches have wanted. Parcells wanted Ryan Fowler and Kai Parham and they were expensive too. He's shown a consistent trend in getting top UDFAs. Don't blame him for them not making the team.

I can go all day Rob. I enjoy these kinds of debates. I only get tired of repeating myself when guys refuse to acknowledge the points that I make.

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Old 11-26-2008, 04:11 AM    (permalink
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Let me give you one name to chew on -- of many -- Abram Elam. Hurd or Austin will suffer similar in that they came with no fan fare, started making plays, but Jerry had to get big name b/c he has no faith or the vision to see it. Carpenter will also go somewhere else and do well once his contract is done.
If Abram Elam is the best you could think of and is only one of many, then I think that proves my point that we don't let go of key players. If you wanna list the "many" that might improve your stance, feel free.

When healthy Hurd was a part of the team. Jerry has stuck with Austin through the growing pains, so I don't know where you're going with that one, if you're trying to say Jerry has given up on him. He certainly wasn't going to be our future #1 WR. If that's the case you're trying to build, tell me now so I can laugh.

Carp needs to go somewhere because he doesn't fit in the system here. Isn't that exactly the thing you blame Jerry for? Not finding fits for the system? Yet you want us to keep Carp? Why? Jerry should let him go if he can't trade him. Just like he did with Fasano. (Kudo's to Jerry for getting that done). It would be idiot for Jerry to resign Carp. He was a Parcells system guy. That was a Parcells pick through and through, yet you blame Jerry somehow? How so? You wanna give Parcells all the credit for the '05 draft and blame Jerry for everything else, right? heh.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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2) With respect to the names you mentioned above, um most of those guys are BP developed and yes there are a few busts not in the list. But hello, last year's class is dud so far except for the KICKER!!!!! And please spare me Spencer, underwhelming.

From this year, Scandrick and Jenkins are unknown at this time but could be fantastic. Felix is a keeper -- score one for Jones. Bennett might be very good but we threw Fasano in the garbage to do that. Not surprisingly, Fasano seems to be pretty damn good in Miami.
So quick are we to say there is so much unknown in this year's draft class, yet quick to point out how terrible last year's class was, when in fact this year's class has seen more time on the field to show what they've got. How can you say this year's class is an unknown and last year's class isn't? Last year's class has had less of a chance to show anything? Spencer has been stuck behind Ellis, but this year we have already seen how much more effective he is than Ellis. You also have to consider Felix Jones apart of that draft since we acquired that pick by moving out of Rnd 1. You also have to consider we didn't have a 2nd rounder in that draft.

But let me agree and say that wasn't one of Jerry's better drafts. Cause I wasn't in love with the Spencer pick at the time. Looks like I could be wrong there. I did like his draft moves in trades, and I allowed myself to get carried away with the Marten, Free, Stanback, Brown picks... but they don't seem so promising anymore. Looks like I was wrong there too.

But spare me the whole Bill Parcells praise. How do you like his last draft with us? Bobby Carpenter, Anthony Fasano, Jason Hatcher, Skyler Green, Pat Watkins, Montavious Stanley, Pat McQuistan, E.J. Whitley. Niiice. Yeah right. That entire draft was a 100% waste. How about the '04 draft where he passed up on Steven Jackson for Julius Jones? Don't forget Jacob Rogers, Stephen Peterman, Bruce Thornton, Sean Ryan, Nate Jones, Jaques Reeves. Yeah, that one was a true winner! Did you love that one? The year before that he didn't even want T-New. Thankfully he hit on Witten in round 3... and um.. I guess you can give him credit for Bradie James if you want to. But Al Johnson, BJ Tucker, Zuriel Smith and Justin Bates were terrible.

So let me just remind you that the success rate of even the best talent evaluators (yes, Parcells is one) is not as high as you make it seem. We got 4 key players out of Bill's best draft... Ware, Barber, Canty, Ratliff. We might have hit on 5/6 in this year's draft... Felix, Jenkins, Bennett, Choice, Scandrick.

Oh and another thing... Fasano isn't even as close to the player that Martellus is.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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Find me a late round find or a guy from a PS that developed. Find me a Ratliff in Jerry;'s hands? Find me a Romo in Jerry's hands? Adalius Thomas? Chris Horton? Find me one in all his years outside of BP and Jimmie. ZERO. Big fat ZERO. Ellis was an 8 pick and Flo an early 2nd.
Who hired BP and Jimmie? Mhm. Give credit to Jerry for those hires. He pulled the strings on those puppet heads.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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3) TO does hurt this team b/c we force the ball to him and only stupid teams allow him to have 49er type games. As soon as we see a good D the Offense grinds to a halt b/c 80% of the passing game revolves around TO and he gets shut down EASILY in Bump/Safety coverage.
Nate Clements is one of the most physical corners in the league. If not THE most physical. TO ate him up.

...and don't kid yourself. Whether we had TO or not, Garrett would still prefer a passing game.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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We always talk empty words about all our talent yet we manage to ignore them most of the game. I dunno but I watched Sunday and I walked away seeing that we are going to have big problems come December versus the better Defense.
Yeah, you're sitting there just hoping and praying that they suck, just so you can be right. I just don't get fans like you.

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4) Outside of Cowboy fans most folks in the NFL consider GM Jones to be a less senile and less talented Al Davis. As an Owner he is wonderful -- he gives fannies what they want -- like what a pusher does to his junkies to keep them coming back.
Most criticize him because he's an easy target. He's brave enough to make bold moves... moves that other owners are afraid of making. The reason why I like him is because he's not afraid of risk. You hate him for that reason. To each their own. Fans from other teams hate him because they hate the Cowboys. Let's be real real about that.
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Old 11-26-2008, 04:16 AM    (permalink
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Never ceases to amaze me the lengths many fans go to "support the team" by willfully ignoring the problems and pumping every decision the team makes like some Cheerleader squad.
You're right. If supporting the team is a crime, then I'm guilty as charged. I'm not a bandwagon fan who is only supportive when the team is doing good. I'll be there through thick and thin.

I realize this team has a lot to do before becoming a SB champion. I'm not blind at that. However, when I see progress, I acknowledge it. I don't hold grudges against Jerry for his past mistakes... then use that as justification that he will never do any good ever again. That's ridiculous! He's shown me that he's been able to learn from each mistake.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can get so emotionally attached in anger that their hatred becomes the foundation for their logic.

Then when the team is successful, they are just as happy as the guys who were strong supporters, if not more happy.
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Old 11-26-2008, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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Bob, if I remember correctly you're from Dallas, right? I don't know if you like hockey but you probably know who Anti Miettinen is. Miettinen was AWFUL for the Stars, just like Carpenter for the Cowboys. He showed promises but after that he was just a waste of time stealing time from better players (aka Loui Eriksson). This past offseason the Stars let him go and he found some sort of success with the Minnesota Wild and the fans (who absolutely hated him) were asking why in the hell did the front office let him go.
Miettinen got hot for some time after a change of scenery because Minnesota was a better fit for him. But he will still be a hot-n-cold type of player.
We can say the same for Carpenter. Maybe he will have success somewhere else but that wouldn't change the fact that he was no fit in Dallas. Anyway I still doubt Carpenter ability to play at the NFL level. He really hates contact.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Bob, if I remember correctly you're from Dallas, right? I don't know if you like hockey but you probably know who Anti Miettinen is. Miettinen was AWFUL for the Stars, just like Carpenter for the Cowboys. He showed promises but after that he was just a waste of time stealing time from better players (aka Loui Eriksson). This past offseason the Stars let him go and he found some sort of success with the Minnesota Wild and the fans (who absolutely hated him) were asking why in the hell did the front office let him go.
Miettinen got hot for some time after a change of scenery because Minnesota was a better fit for him. But he will still be a hot-n-cold type of player.
We can say the same for Carpenter. Maybe he will have success somewhere else but that wouldn't change the fact that he was no fit in Dallas. Anyway I still doubt Carpenter ability to play at the NFL level. He really hates contact.
We will see now Carp does elsewhere. I could easily be dead wrong but I have a right to my opinion on the unknown as you do yours.

My summary on Carp is he got screwed in the transition and not because of his play. Same reason Fasano and Ayodele got traded for a box of chocolates and are playing pretty good in Miami -- certainly worth more than a 4th rounder.

On the other points on players and player development, I will let my track record speak for itself over time. I love talking players and how they fit in scheme. It is what most interests me about Football but I am not one who simply thinks a great talent for any scheme works. I also find this approach to football naive and indicative of bad GMing. Step right up Jerry Jones and Senile Al.

D-Unit: Angry? Hardly, I love watching the games. I love being a "fan"atic on game day. Intellectually, however, I get annoyed by shallow comments or by factually incorrect ones outside of game day. To say, as one said, we likely under paid for Roy Williams WR is just one of many laughable comments given the conditions in the league right now.

To all have a great Thanksgiving where ever you are. Enjoy the Seahawk stuffing too.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Who hired BP and Jimmie? Mhm. Give credit to Jerry for those hires. He pulled the strings on those puppet heads.
Yes he did hire them, he also fired them to install puppet regimes that made him look more important in order to hog the credit ,,,,, even if over time the team declined b/c of those decisions.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, you're sitting there just hoping and praying that they suck, just so you can be right. I just don't get fans like you.


Most criticize him because he's an easy target. He's brave enough to make bold moves... moves that other owners are afraid of making. The reason why I like him is because he's not afraid of risk. You hate him for that reason. To each their own. Fans from other teams hate him because they hate the Cowboys. Let's be real real about that.
I realise this is difficult for fans to understand but you can be the biggest fan of the team and its players on game day but be their biggest critic when not. That is what many good coaches are and ALLLLLL good GMers are that way. Merciless in seeking improvement.

Jerry has made some bold GM moves I loved but many that made no sense at all. More importantly though, D, is it is a sequencing thing. What priorities and where? How do you put it together multiple moves to solve many problems without giving away the future?

I just have not seen it from Jones, not ever and not once. Just fact.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Yes he did hire them, he also fired them to install puppet regimes that made him look more important in order to hog the credit ,,,,, even if over time the team declined b/c of those decisions.
Jerry practically begged Parcells to stay. The last thing he did was fire him, so get the facts right.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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I realise this is difficult for fans to understand but you can be the biggest fan of the team and its players on game day but be their biggest critic when not. That is what many good coaches are and ALLLLLL good GMers are that way. Merciless in seeking improvement.

Jerry has made some bold GM moves I loved but many that made no sense at all. More importantly though, D, is it is a sequencing thing. What priorities and where? How do you put it together multiple moves to solve many problems without giving away the future?

I just have not seen it from Jones, not ever and not once. Just fact.
What are you talking about? All we do around here is talk about the improvements that need to be made! Are you that unaware of the discussions that we have here?

I realize that it's difficult for you to accept that Jerry should get credited for any good and should only get credited for all the bad, but the fact remains, this is his team. It has always been his team since he has owned them. And the team has made some great improvements since the 3 5-11 seasons that we had to endure. We're one of the better teams in the league right now with a fighting chance for the playoffs, but Jerry has given us that hope. It's fair to have higher expectations, it's fair to be a critic, but to base all your logic around the guy because your hatred for him is emotionally charged to him is senseless.

I haven't seen any moves where Jerry has mortgaged away our future, so I don't know what you're talking about in your last paragraph. In fact, if the moves he's made hasn't shown that he doesn't have a mind for the future of the team, then I don't know if I can talk sense with you at all.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Ya Rob....Parcells wasn't kicked out....I believe his exact quote was something along the lines of "I just didn't have it in me to go through another season. To lose on something as fundamental as a chip shot field goal after all the time we put in was just too much."
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