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Old 08-26-2009, 07:45 PM    (permalink
DMWSackMachine
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I know exactly how you feel.

I felt the same way in 2005 when we missed out on the next Michael Irvin by one pick and passed on the next Derrick Thomas in order to take a dude from a small school who had never sent a 1st round pick to the NFL.

Sometimes our limitations in player evaluation leaves us at a serious disadvantage.
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I know exactly how you feel.

I felt the same way in 2005 when we missed out on the next Michael Irvin by one pick and passed on the next Derrick Thomas in order to take a dude from a small school who had never sent a 1st round pick to the NFL.

Sometimes our limitations in player evaluation leaves us at a serious disadvantage.
Quoted for Truth right there.

I hope Jarron Gilbert turns out to be a bust. ...and that Robert Brewster and Brandon Williams are All-Pros :p
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Old 08-26-2009, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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Blow for the giants.


One week ago, Aaron Ross told reporters he was torn between rushing back to the practice field at the risk of aggravating his hamstring injury or taking a slow approach to his recovery and missing key training-camp practices. In the end, Ross decided to wait. Apparently, he didn't wait long enough. In Tuesday's final practice of camp, Ross did just what he feared he would do when he reinjured his left hamstring while running to cover a deep pass. The third-year cornerback immediately left practice, did not return and was carted off at the end of the session. Ross was to undergo full tests to see how much more damage was done. The results were not immediately available, though it's looking like his preseason is over without playing in one game. Source: New Jersey Star-Ledger.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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Blow for the giants.


One week ago, Aaron Ross told reporters he was torn between rushing back to the practice field at the risk of aggravating his hamstring injury or taking a slow approach to his recovery and missing key training-camp practices. In the end, Ross decided to wait. Apparently, he didn't wait long enough. In Tuesday's final practice of camp, Ross did just what he feared he would do when he reinjured his left hamstring while running to cover a deep pass. The third-year cornerback immediately left practice, did not return and was carted off at the end of the session. Ross was to undergo full tests to see how much more damage was done. The results were not immediately available, though it's looking like his preseason is over without playing in one game. Source: New Jersey Star-Ledger.
Aaron Ross is quickly starting to disappear from the picture over there. At one time he was as promising as any young corner in the league.
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Old 08-27-2009, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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I know exactly how you feel.

I felt the same way in 2005 when we missed out on the next Michael Irvin by one pick and passed on the next Derrick Thomas in order to take a dude from a small school who had never sent a 1st round pick to the NFL.

Sometimes our limitations in player evaluation leaves us at a serious disadvantage.
So D Ware makes up for everything because you liked Mike Williams or the Texas OLB?

Does Carson Palmer and Ocho Cinco make up for everything in Cincinnati? AA make up for the Raiders?

I don't understand this player personnel concept posters have that because you hit on one player or two every so often it validates your system or makes it any less sucky than the other bad management teams in the NFL.

Jerry's system sucks. It is the equivalent of "I invested in Microsoft and Dell Computers in 1980s but the rest of my 1,736 stock picks went bankrupt."

You need a higher success rate than 1% in football player personnel to create a winning franchise.

If the average football player who makes it last 5 years in the NFL that means you need to find about 10 players every year via draft and FA. And if trying to have a good team probably need to hit on 1 New Pro Bowler per year. Are we hitting on 1 per year With Jerry?

Bottom line is our systems sucks until proven otherwise. And PROVEN means wins in the playoffs and a SB with some long term sustainability which is both talent and coaching. Till then ....

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Old 08-27-2009, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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So D Ware makes up for everything because you liked Mike Williams or the Texas OLB?

Does Carson Palmer and Ocho Cinco make up for everything in Cincinnati? AA make up for the Raiders?

I don't understand this player personnel concept posters have that because you hit on one player or two every so often it validates your system or makes it any less sucky than the other bad management teams in the NFL.

Jerry's system sucks. It is the equivalent of "I invested in Microsoft and Dell Computers in 1980s but the rest of my 1,736 stock picks went bankrupt."

You need a higher success rate than 1% in football player personnel to create a winning franchise.

If the average football player who makes it last 5 years in the NFL that means you need to find about 10 players every year via draft and FA. And if trying to have a good team probably need to hit on 1 New Pro Bowler per year. Are we hitting on 1 per year With Jerry?

Bottom line is our systems sucks until proven otherwise. And PROVEN means wins in the playoffs and a SB with some long term sustainability which is both talent and coaching. Till then ....
Did you not read DMN's post?

You are looking at a few failures and throwing the entire damn thing out.

Has JJ has his failures, but SO DOES EVERYBODY! Looks at those drafts DMN mentioned on our division rivals. Go back and look at my post about Tenn's drafts. Go back and look at NE's last couple of years, it's nothing to really write home about.

Frankly, I think you are dead wrong on Jerry because since Big Bill came in, JJ has turned over much of the draft stuff. He is trusting his people, by all accounts, and over the last couple of years, I think Tom Ciskowski (sp?) has earned a little bit of the benefit of doubt. And as I said earlier, I still think you have to factor RW into this draft because he was 2 of our picks. And I would be willing to bet he outperforms any rookie WR this season and probably next.

Now, I agree with you that our "system" hasn't produced a playoff win, yet. But you can't lay all that the feet of Jerry. He did bring in Big Bill and he didn't deliver. Jerry went way out of his comfort zone in bringing Bill in...Jerry took a back seat because he wanted to win. It's certainly debatable if Wade was the right choice, but given what he had to choose from, who was a better option?

Jerry has his flaws, but there are a couple dozen NFL teams that would kill to have an owner with the passion and desire to win that JJ has.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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well...i personally strongly disagree with the evaluations of the Giants and Eagles drafts, and I think the success of those Cowboys drafts minus the Jenkins/Jones class is being overexaggerated but im just too lazy right now to say anything beyond that.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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well...i personally strongly disagree with the evaluations of the Giants and Eagles drafts, and I think the success of those Cowboys drafts minus the Jenkins/Jones class is being overexaggerated but im just too lazy right now to say anything beyond that.
Well, that's helpful to the discussion.

;)
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Aaron Ross is quickly starting to disappear from the picture over there. At one time he was as promising as any young corner in the league.
ehh I've gotta disagree here D. When drafted we knew his upside was limited for the future. He was 25 I believe when drafted (or 24, and turned 25 when the season started, whatever). He's still very talented, but has been plagued with injuries. I don't think he's disapperain from our picture. Lots of people, including yourself, are hyping up Thomas, but he hasn't done anything in theNFL yet. Let's see how he preforms is he's gotta start if Ross doesn't come back. Ross still has the best ball skills of our corners with the best hands and catching ability on INT's (although TT's got some nice hands as well) and he excells in our press coverage scheme. However, his potential is fairly limited.

On the flip side, there's Scandrick who hasn't shown all that much thus far, but has gobs and gobs of potential.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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Well, that's helpful to the discussion.

;)
i do what i can ;)
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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ehh I've gotta disagree here D. When drafted we knew his upside was limited for the future. He was 25 I believe when drafted (or 24, and turned 25 when the season started, whatever). He's still very talented, but has been plagued with injuries. I don't think he's disapperain from our picture. Lots of people, including yourself, are hyping up Thomas, but he hasn't done anything in theNFL yet. Let's see how he preforms is he's gotta start if Ross doesn't come back. Ross still has the best ball skills of our corners with the best hands and catching ability on INT's (although TT's got some nice hands as well) and he excells in our press coverage scheme. However, his potential is fairly limited.

On the flip side, there's Scandrick who hasn't shown all that much thus far, but has gobs and gobs of potential.
Ross is a guy who can stick those possession WRs like glue, but he'll have a hard time against speedsters. He doesn't have the hip movement to work the slot either. But then again, like you mentioned, he's been injury plagued his whole career so minus a couple of games where he's shown potential, we haven't seen him at his peak for 2 years now.

All in all, im happy with him. Worst case scenario, he makes for one hell of a #3 CB. And we don't win the SB without him, so I'm content.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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So far this 2009 draft actually looks good IMO. They look good on special teams so far, and for rookies none of them look bad. Williams looks like he could be a huge steal if he learns the game well, and Butler looks like he could be a 5-6 sack backup in the future. McGee for some reason is getting overlooked as an actual nice QB prospect for the future. The goal is for him to be a nice long term backup that maybe can turn into a starter when Tony gets old. What more do you want from him? He's cheap, has good upside, and is enthusiastic about staying for the long haul. Isn't that what you want from a backup? Hamlin and Smith are looking good out there. Those two seem like they can be some nice role players in the long haul. In fact, I think one of them will be starting in 3 years. Buelher does exactly what they drafted him for, and Manny Johnson would be a nice 5th wideout if the position wasn't already crowded with no brainers to make he team. The only thing right now you can really ***** about is Brewster and Williams being hurt, and Mickens stinking it up. Brewster never missed a game in college, so it's not like this is something common with him. Williams got hurt, but things happen. It's just a part of the game, and it's not like he was only good to do things this year. Mickens so far is a disappointment, but he was a ******* 7th round pick. It's not the end of the world that your 7th rounder sucks, and there's still two more preseason games for him to turn it around. Look at Courtney Brown. He sucked ass like the tossed salad man against Oakland, but against Tennessee he looked like glue.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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ehh I've gotta disagree here D. When drafted we knew his upside was limited for the future. He was 25 I believe when drafted (or 24, and turned 25 when the season started, whatever). He's still very talented, but has been plagued with injuries. I don't think he's disapperain from our picture. Lots of people, including yourself, are hyping up Thomas, but he hasn't done anything in theNFL yet. Let's see how he preforms is he's gotta start if Ross doesn't come back. Ross still has the best ball skills of our corners with the best hands and catching ability on INT's (although TT's got some nice hands as well) and he excells in our press coverage scheme. However, his potential is fairly limited.

On the flip side, there's Scandrick who hasn't shown all that much thus far, but has gobs and gobs of potential.
What you're telling me is that you never expected a long future out of him. BBD said at worst he'd be a fine #3 CB. Now he's injured... So I repeat...

It looks as if Aaron Ross is quickly starting to disappear from the picture. He needs to be healthy because I think there are more than competent guys gunning for his starting spot.

As for Scandrick, I wouldn't say he hasn't shown a lot at all. Quite the opposite.

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Old 08-27-2009, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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well...i personally strongly disagree with the evaluations of the Giants and Eagles drafts, and I think the success of those Cowboys drafts minus the Jenkins/Jones class is being overexaggerated but im just too lazy right now to say anything beyond that.
The fact many fans are hanging their hat on Jenkins/Scandrick/Bennett/Jones (no starters and all little experience) as reason for Jerry being OK is crazy.

Every year, you need to produce starters to stay relative and every year you need to hit a Pro Bowl caliber player to get to the upper levels.

It is just simple math with a salary cap system. Jerry has never accomplished this.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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You are looking at a few failures
FEW?

Wow.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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What you're telling me is that you never expected a long future out of him. BBD said at worst he'd be a fine #3 CB. Now he's injured... So I repeat...

It looks as if Aaron Ross is quickly starting to disappear from the picture. He needs to be healthy because I think there are more than competent guys gunning for his starting spot.
If we're talking long term future, I never felt we'd extend him past his rookie contract. He'll be 30, theres no need to overpay him to keep him.

The way Reese drafts, he'll just find a new guy and plug and chug.

We both liked TT a lot though, so we have bias. Scotty is right that TT has to prove himself before we claim he's better than Ross. Don't get it confused, Ross is still a damn good #2 CB. Just that TT has more potential, and can be a 1B type of CB opposed to just a great #2 like Ross.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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If we're talking long term future, I never felt we'd extend him past his rookie contract. He'll be 30, theres no need to overpay him to keep him.

The way Reese drafts, he'll just find a new guy and plug and chug.

We both liked TT a lot though, so we have bias. Scotty is right that TT has to prove himself before we claim he's better than Ross. Don't get it confused, Ross is still a damn good #2 CB. Just that TT has more potential, and can be a 1B type of CB opposed to just a great #2 like Ross.
Oh man... I just read your sig. I hope Canty eats his words.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Oh man... I just read your sig. I hope Canty eats his words.
I hope Canty eats Romo :p
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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I hope Canty eats Romo :p
Kyle Kosier will take care of Canty.






doh! Just the sound of that makes me shudder. :/ Kyle Kosier sucks balls.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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So D Ware makes up for everything because you liked Mike Williams or the Texas OLB?

Does Carson Palmer and Ocho Cinco make up for everything in Cincinnati? AA make up for the Raiders?

I don't understand this player personnel concept posters have that because you hit on one player or two every so often it validates your system or makes it any less sucky than the other bad management teams in the NFL.

Jerry's system sucks. It is the equivalent of "I invested in Microsoft and Dell Computers in 1980s but the rest of my 1,736 stock picks went bankrupt."

You need a higher success rate than 1% in football player personnel to create a winning franchise.

If the average football player who makes it last 5 years in the NFL that means you need to find about 10 players every year via draft and FA. And if trying to have a good team probably need to hit on 1 New Pro Bowler per year. Are we hitting on 1 per year With Jerry?

Bottom line is our systems sucks until proven otherwise. And PROVEN means wins in the playoffs and a SB with some long term sustainability which is both talent and coaching. Till then ....
You didn't even address the issues at hand. You're a master (well, in the sense that you do it a lot, not that you're actually good at it) at the Red Herring technique (or, more aptly, fallacious technique) of arguing.

According to your standard, both the Giants and the Eagles are successful organizations. I just did an apples to apples comparison of us and them, and its clear that in 07 and 08 (the two years immediately following BP's departure) we were at minimum neck and neck with each, and there's a strong argument that we were significantly better. Thus it follows logically that we are having success ourselves. But no, your convoluted method of evaluation lends itself well to contradictory conclusions in logic. Bravo, you're back at it.


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well...i personally strongly disagree with the evaluations of the Giants and Eagles drafts, and I think the success of those Cowboys drafts minus the Jenkins/Jones class is being overexaggerated but im just too lazy right now to say anything beyond that.
Um....I only brought up 2 drafts, no? The year before was, like I said, a mixed bag with a really really good player at the top (Spencer) and some ups and downs with a couple standount STs players (Folk and Anderson), a starting quality FB (Anderson), and some decent depth players....not to mention Hurd and Austin. I'd say that's an average-to-slightly-above-average draft. Considering what the Giants and Eagles both turnded up with that year, I'd say that stands up fairly well.

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On the flip side, there's Scandrick who hasn't shown all that much thus far, but has gobs and gobs of potential.


Orlando Scandrick?

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but Scandrick has already produced on the field quite a bit. But don't take my word for it, look up KC Joyner and FBO for their CB metrics, in which Scandrick performed like a top 20 CB, albeit in limited PT.
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He was protecting his self
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From what? His leg?
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
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Old 08-27-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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The irony is that if the Cowboys had paid more than NY, he would have stayed. These guys can pay lip service to that crap, but it's all about the money.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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The irony is that if the Cowboys had paid more than NY, he would have stayed. These guys can pay lip service to that crap, but it's all about the money.
I know. I'm more than happy with Olshansky, so there's no bad blood here.

Oshansky is tailor made for Wade's system. I expect his best year yet.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Orlando Scandrick?

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but Scandrick has already produced on the field quite a bit. But don't take my word for it, look up KC Joyner and FBO for their CB metrics, in which Scandrick performed like a top 20 CB, albeit in limited PT.
Can you link me? I've tried finding it before with no luck.
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The fact many fans are hanging their hat on Jenkins/Scandrick/Bennett/Jones (no starters and all little experience) as reason for Jerry being OK is crazy.

Every year, you need to produce starters to stay relative and every year you need to hit a Pro Bowl caliber player to get to the upper levels.

It is just simple math with a salary cap system. Jerry has never accomplished this.
Are you talking in terms of draft, or do you mean both the draft and free agency?
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Old 08-27-2009, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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We cut Rogers and Hannah today.
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