Dallas Cowboys Discussion

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

We cut Rogers and Hannah today.

Justin Rogers? Guess that makes Octavien pretty happy.

Hannah made a nice catch, last week, but not nice enough. I bet he'll surface up in Miami. haha.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine

Orlando Scandrick?

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but Scandrick has already produced on the field quite a bit. But don't take my word for it, look up KC Joyner and FBO for their CB metrics, in which Scandrick performed like a top 20 CB, albeit in limited PT.

hasn't shown much. as in hasn't played a lot. He's got gobs of potential in the limited time he's shown. I dont know why you feel the need to try and just disagree with me considering you just said basically what I said about Scandrick.

[DMWSackMachine]

Originally Posted by herniateddisc

The fact many fans are hanging their hat on Jenkins/Scandrick/Bennett/Jones (no starters and all little experience) as reason for Jerry being OK is crazy.

Every year, you need to produce starters to stay relative and every year you need to hit a Pro Bowl caliber player to get to the upper levels.

It is just simple math with a salary cap system. Jerry has never accomplished this.

You might want to, just on occasion, take a look at reality every once in awhile. Let's pick the early 2000s Pats teams (the most successful organization of the decade) to cross check your little "theory".

2000:

2 46 Adrian Klemm OT 05/21/1977 Hawaii
3 76 J.R. Redmond RB 09/28/1977 Arizona State
4 127 Greg Randall OT 06/23/1978 Michigan State
5 141 Dave Stachelski TE 03/01/1977 Boise State
5 161 Jeff Marriott DT 03/03/1977 Missouri
6 187 Antwan Harris DB 05/29/1977 Virginia
6 199 Tom Brady QB 08/03/1977 Michigan
6 201 David Nugent DT 10/27/1977 Purdue
7 226 Casey Tisdale LB 06/18/1976 New Mexico
7 239 Patrick Pass RB 12/31/1977 Georgia

Wow....lot of starters there. In fact, there isn't a single name you would recognize from this draft besides Tom Brady...which the Pats themselves have acknowledged was essentially a shot in the dark.

2001:

1 6 Richard Seymour DT 10/06/1979 Georgia
2 48 Matt Light OT 06/23/1978 Purdue
3 86 Brock Williams DB 08/11/1979 Notre Dame
4 96 Kenyatta Jones OT 01/18/1979 South Florida
4 119 Jabari Holloway TE 12/18/1978 Notre Dame
5 163 Hakim Akbar DB 08/11/1980 Washington
6 180 Arther Love TE 09/18/1977 South Carolina State
6 200 Leonard Myers DB 12/18/1978 Miami
7 216 Owen Pochman K 08/02/1977 Brigham Young
7 239 T.J. Turner LB 10/01/1978 Michigan State

Here you see some good quality at the top, but nothing down the line. Matt Light made one PB, but has mostly just been a "solid" LT. Seymour was transcendant early on, but has regressed a little to merely "very good" in the last 3 years. The rest are just throw away special teamers and flameouts.

2002:

1 21 Daniel Graham TE 11/16/1978 Colorado
2 65 Deion Branch WR 07/18/1979 Louisville
4 117 Rohan Davey QB 04/14/1978 Louisiana State
4 126 Jarvis Green DE 01/12/1979 Louisiana State
7 237 Antwoine Womack RB 03/20/1978 Virginia
7 253 David Givens WR 08/16/1980 Notre Dame


Again, no real quality here, but there were several decent-to-above-average starters here. Graham started for 3 years before being demoted behind Ben Watson and then defecting in FA, but was never anything close to worthy of the #21 overall pick. Branch netted them a #1 after producing a completely random and out of the blue SBMVP trophy, but was mostly just a solid #2 in an ensemble cast of WRs. Givens was a decent #3 who benefitted from working with Brady. Green has been a very solid backup as the #3 DE in their 3-4 scheme for years, but never has become a starter. That's a tally of 0 Pro Bowlers, 2 decent/solid starters and 2 solid backups. Ok, but certainly nothing special.

2003:

1 13 Ty Warren DT 02/06/1981 Texas A&M
2 36 Eugene Wilson DB 08/17/1980 Illinois
2 45 Bethel Johnson WR 02/11/1979 Texas A&M
4 117 Dan Klecko DE 01/12/1981 Temple
4 120 Asante Samuel DB 01/06/1981 Central Florida
5 164 Dan Koppen C 08/12/1978 Boston College
6 201 Kliff Kingsbury QB 08/09/1979 Texas Tech
7 234 Spencer Nead TE 11/03/1977 Brigham Young
7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB 08/28/1980 California
7 243 Ethan Kelley DT 02/12/1980 Baylor

Top to bottom, probably the best draft class of the decade for NE. Ty Warren, iirc, has never made a Pro Bowl, but is definitely that caliber of player. Wilson was a fair starting caliber S. Klecko has been a good ST player and has been utilized as a utility guy for diffferent stuff, but really hasn't been that much of an asset. Samuel obviously is the big hit, but he was one of the worst starters on the 2004 team and didn't really come into his own until 05 or 06...3 or 4 years after being drafted. Koppen has been a nice starting C and a regular on the OL. But here you still see a serious bust in the 2nd, another 2nd rounder who was a little "meh" and only one actual Pro Bowler. And this is the gold standard draft for this franchise.


2004:

1 21 Vince Wilfork DT 11/04/1981 Miami
1 32 Ben Watson TE 12/17/1980 Georgia
2 63 Marquise Hill DE 08/07/1982 Louisiana State
3 95 Guss Scott DB 05/21/1982 Florida
4 113 Dexter Reid DB 03/18/1981 North Carolina
4 128 Cedric Cobbs RB 01/09/1981 Arkansas
5 164 P.K. Sam WR 12/26/1983 Florida State
7 233 Christian Morton DB 04/28/1981 Illinois


For a team with two 1sts, not very impressive at all. In fact, while they do have 2 starters and 1 Pro Bowler, they don't have a single contributor left over from this draft outside of the two 1st rounders. Wilfork is a great player inside, obviously, but Watson has been a continual under achiever (every year people around the league say to watch out for him as a breakout player), and you want to talk about backups and ***** about taking a TE with your 2nd rounder when you already have a guy there, NE spent 1st rounders on TEs TWICE IN THREE YEARS. Either that's abject stupidity or an outright admission that the 1st rounder you spent two years before is not up to snuff. That's one PBer and one decent starter with zero other contributors from this class.


2005:

1 32 Logan Mankins OG 03/10/1982 Fresno State
3 84 Ellis Hobbs DB 05/16/1983 Iowa State
3 100 Nick Kaczur OG 07/28/1979 Toledo
4 133 James Sanders DB 11/11/1983 Fresno State
5 170 Ryan Claridge LB 04/12/1981 Nevada-Las Vegas
7 230 Matt Cassel QB 05/17/1982 Southern California
7 255 Andy Stokes TE 06/02/1981 William Penn

I suppose drafting a Pro Bowl LG still counts as a Pro Bowler, but there's a reason why Gs don't go in the 1st in the league. The value just isn't there. Other than Mankins, they didn't draft a single starting caliber player in this draft. Kaczur had a fine year in 2007, but has been moved around from G to T and back and is currently a candidate for replacement. Hobbs is gone and was continually picked on while he was there. Sanders was nothing more than an average nickel CB, if that. Cassel had a semi decent year last year, but is currently being challenged by Brodie Croyle for the starting QB gig in KC. He's not out of the woods yet. So one PBer at G and no other starting caliber players that have proven themselves yet.

2006:

1 21 Laurence Maroney RB 02/05/1985 Minnesota
2 36 Chad Jackson WR 03/06/1985 Florida
3 86 David Thomas TE 07/05/1983 Texas
4 106 Garrett Mills TE 10/12/1983 Tulsa
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K 01/28/1984 Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan OG 07/19/1983 California
6 191 Jeremy Mincey DE 12/14/1983 Florida
6 205 Dan Stevenson OT 10/04/1982 Notre Dame
6 206 Le Kevin Smith DT 07/21/1982 Nebraska
7 229 Willie Andrews DB 11/02/1983 Baylor

Mmmmmm. The scent of bust in the air. Maroney and Jackson (who has already been cut) are epic disappointments. Even after spending two 1st on TEs in 3 years, they go back to the well here and spend another 3rd and 4th on the position again. Neither have worked out too much, though they converted one to FB and each have contributed in bit roles and on STs. O'Callaghan is the only guy who has really sniffed a starters role, but he has been part of a lackluster right side that played surprisingly well for 2+ months in 2007, but came back down to earth late in the season and nearly got Brady killed in the playoffs, culminating in this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuA4YvH2hj8

Nothing to show from this one, except one guy that has been an on-again-off again starter for one of the weakest positions on the team. Sort of like counting Pat Watkins as a starter for Dallas.

2007:

1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB 01/14/1984 Miami
4 127 Kareem Brown DT 01/30/1983 Miami
5 171 Clint Oldenburg OT 09/09/1983 Colorado State
6 180 Justin Rogers LB 08/31/1983 Southern Methodist
6 202 Mike Richardson DB 02/18/1984 Notre Dame
6 208 Justise Hairston RB 06/27/1983 Central Connecticut State
6 209 Corey Hilliard OT 04/26/1985 Oklahoma State
7 211 Oscar Lua LB 05/09/1984 Southern California
7 247 Mike Elgin C 10/15/1983 Iowa


Second verse, same as the first. Meriweather is only now getting a chance to start after sitting behind mediocre starters for two years (at least with Spencer, he was sitting behind elite or very good players). To this point, no starters, no Pro Bowlers and no real contributors. Most of these guys have already moved on...as you can see by the fact that one of them is on the Cowboys fighting for a spare roster spot. Only two players remain on their current roster, a mere two years after the draft. That would be two drafts with nary a real starter among them, a ton of cut players and nothing resembling a Pro Bowler (though Merriweather might still get there, but its a long shot).

2008:

1 10 Jerod Mayo LB 02/23/1986 Tennessee
2 62 Terrence Wheatley DB 05/05/1985 Colorado
3 78 Shawn Crable LB 12/26/1984 Michigan
3 94 Kevin O'Connell QB 05/25/1985 San Diego State
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite DB 05/19/1986 Auburn
5 153 Matt Slater WR 09/09/1985 UCLA
6 197 Bo Ruud LB 09/02/1984 Nebraska


It may still be early, but it looks like this will be similar to the 04 and 05 drafts, with a very good to Pro Bowl player at the top (which they stole from an incompetent SF team who was in desperation mode) and nothing to show later on. Wheatley was a massive disappointment last year and non of the other players have distinguished themselves to this point. Crable could still be pretty good, though I haven't heard much positive stuff come out of camp about him. I like what little I've seen out of Ruud, but that isn't saying much.



Ok, so that is like the golden standard in the league, according to many talking heads....and its really not that impressive. They have two drafts--06 and 07--where they have almost nothing to show for their efforts. Then they have two more--05 and 08--with little to show aside from 1st rounders who panned out and justified their draft statuses.

So quick recap:

00: 1 starter, Tom Brady. Almost nothing else.
01: 1 All Pro, 1 borderline PBer, Death valley else.
02: 2 Decent starters, 2 solid depth guys.
03: 1 Pro Bowler, 3 solid starters (one of whom is PB caliber), 2 quality depth ST guys
04: 1 Pro Bowler, 1 other solid starter, not much in the way of depth.
05: 1 Pro Bowler (at a marginal position), 2 marginal starters, 1 decent backup and Cassel (yet to be determined)
06: 1 Good PK, 0 Pro Bowlers, 0 starters, 3 or 4 good depth guys
07: 0 Pro Bowlers, 0 Starters, 1 potential starter, 0 depth/rotation guys
08: 1 Potential PBer/starter, 1 potential starter/rotation guy, no other noteworthy players

So in 9 years that's a total of 6 Pro Bowlers drafted (two or whom were marginal Pro Bowlers), another player who is Pro Bowl caliber but has never made it, another who could develop into a Pro Bowler soon, 15 total starters, two potential starters, and a continual stream of good ST players that kept them in the upper third of the league regularly and occasionally among the elite.


Here again is your quote:

Originally Posted by herniateddisc

The fact many fans are hanging their hat on Jenkins/Scandrick/Bennett/Jones (no starters and all little experience) as reason for Jerry being OK is crazy.

Every year, you need to produce starters to stay relative and every year you need to hit a Pro Bowl caliber player to get to the upper levels.

It is just simple math with a salary cap system. Jerry has never accomplished this.

Meanwhile, the Cowboys have drafted/acquired 6 bona fide Pro Bowl (we won't mention borderline PBers) caliber guys in just the last 6 seasons (Newman, Witten, Romo, Ware, Barber, Ratliff) --an average of 1 per year, just like you said--in addition to at least as many starters, and a slew of guys last season which have as good a shot as Jerod Mayo of being stars. Where we've struggled is in getting the lower tier guys that make excellent backups and become terrors on STs....which, interestingly enough, is what we spent this draft trying to do (it's almost as if a certain someone knows what he's doing, isn't it?) and which everyone has so roundly criticized us for doing.


You continue to set arbitrary and foolish standards which have limited-to-no connection to the actual real world, and then treat others like they are idiots when they don't agree with you. You should at least check your facts before you run off at the mouth about something that you clearly don't understand. Once again you put your foot in your mouth and end up looking the fool, though you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge as much.

You fail.

[DMWSackMachine]

Originally Posted by scottyboy

hasn't shown much. as in hasn't played a lot. He's got gobs of potential in the limited time he's shown. I dont know why you feel the need to try and just disagree with me considering you just said basically what I said about Scandrick.

I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. You kind of made it sound like he was just physical abilities and hype, without ever showing anything in game.

But if we are saying the same thing, my bad.

[DMWSackMachine]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Can you link me? I've tried finding it before with no luck.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insid...ory?id=4402482

One to watch: CB Orlando Scandrick


While the Cowboys' fifth-round pick in the 2008 draft had to fight to make the team as their fifth cornerback, Scandrick certainly didn't play like the team's fifth-best cornerback as a rookie. While first-round pick Mike Jenkins struggled on the field, and former first-rounder Adam Jones scuffled off of it, Scandrick emerged as one of the best slot cornerbacks in football, adept at keeping the play in front of him and forcing quarterbacks to squeeze throws into windows that were too tight. His 61 percent Success Rate was 11th in the league among cornerbacks, while the 5.7 yards per attempt he allowed placed him at 17th.

As for KC, I've only heard him make passing references to Scandrick in chats and the like, and I don't own his annual book with all the numbers in it. But I do know that what Outsiders and he do are very similar.

[scottyboy]

Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine

I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. You kind of made it sound like he was just physical abilities and hype, without ever showing anything in game.

But if we are saying the same thing, my bad.

ok, then I guess I just wasn't clear. Based on his limited time and physical abilities, he's got gobs of potential. I think he's a star in the making.

Jenkins however...meh. Never was high on him, perhaps because I'm used to him getting destroyed by Britt and Underwood...but still.

but yea, I'm a big fan of Scandrick

[DMWSackMachine]

I hated the Jenkins pick when we made it. I want DRC with that pick and when he wasn't available I was hoping for either Kenny Phillips or a trade down, so I've never really been a big Jenkins supporter.

However, I have begun to come around. Imo, he will never be a big time cover dude, but he has the athleticism and aggressiveness to become a major ball hawker. I can see him being in the mold of Asante Samuels. Pair that with a great cover guy like Scandrick and I think the two will complement each other extremely well.

[bigbluedefense]

I actually liked Jenkins alot coming out, i was upset when he went to Dallas. My rankings were

1. DRC


2. Antoine Cason
3. Brandon Flowers
4. Mike Jenkins
5. Tracy Porter
6. Terrell Thomas


surprisingly, I was never a big fan of Leodis or Talib.

EDIT: Forgot about Brandon Flowers.

[D-Unit]

Mike Jenkins was my #1 guy. So much so that I didn't even consider him lasting to us. I had him slated to go early along with Leodis, so I didn't invest a lot of time hoping it would happen. Funny, I thought DRC would. ha. I also liked Charles Godfrey, Terrell Thomas and Chevis Jackson (although none of them in Round 1).

I hated Talib though. Didn't care much for Porter. Liked Cason and Flowers... but not in Rnd 1 either.

I loved Jenkins for his physicality, speed, and playmaking ability. I also liked his versatility as he also played some Safety. He was an F'n dreamy prospect and I was so mad when we passed on him and equally as happy when we traded up for him.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

Justin Rogers? Guess that makes Octavien pretty happy.

Hannah made a nice catch, last week, but not nice enough. I bet he'll surface up in Miami. haha.

Octavien leap frogged him on all the second team and ST units anyway and Rogers has had some knee? problems. Something like that. It was looking like Octavien locked down a roster spot even if Brandon Williams could go. We would have kept the three. (Butler, Octavien, Williams) But now, Octavien and Butler are our backup OLBs...pretty interesting. haha.

[M.O.T.H.]

Roy Williams may have a broken collarbone.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-roy-williams/

[Ward]

The dude is a damn eggshell.

[M.O.T.H.]

Originally Posted by Ward

The dude is a damn eggshell.

ummm yeah. They werent even in pads hitting eachother today. He ran into Scandrick, apparently.

If he really is out...I'd imagine either Hurd goes right into his spot or Crayton goes over there and Hurd or Austin plays in Pat's spot. When Roy missed practice earlier, Crayton went over to Roy's position.

[herniateddisc]

Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine

You might want to, just on occasion, take a look at reality every once in awhile. Let's pick the early 2000s Pats teams (the most successful organization of the decade) to cross check your little "theory".

2000:
6 199 Tom Brady QB 08/03/1977 Michigan

2001:

1 6 Richard Seymour DT 10/06/1979 Georgia
2 48 Matt Light OT 06/23/1978 Purdue

2002:

1 21 Daniel Graham TE 11/16/1978 Colorado
2 65 Deion Branch WR 07/18/1979 Louisville
4 126 Jarvis Green DE 01/12/1979 Louisiana State
7 253 David Givens WR 08/16/1980 Notre Dame

2003:

1 13 Ty Warren DT 02/06/1981 Texas A&M
2 36 Eugene Wilson DB 08/17/1980 Illinois
4 120 Asante Samuel DB 01/06/1981 Central Florida
5 164 Dan Koppen C 08/12/1978 Boston College
7 239 Tully Banta-Cain LB 08/28/1980 California

2004:

1 21 Vince Wilfork DT 11/04/1981 Miami
1 32 Ben Watson TE 12/17/1980 Georgia
2005:

1 32 Logan Mankins OG 03/10/1982 Fresno State
3 84 Ellis Hobbs DB 05/16/1983 Iowa State
3 100 Nick Kaczur OG 07/28/1979 Toledo
4 133 James Sanders DB 11/11/1983 Fresno State
7 230 Matt Cassel QB 05/17/1982 Southern California

2006:

1 21 Laurence Maroney RB 02/05/1985 Minnesota
4 118 Stephen Gostkowski K 01/28/1984 Memphis
5 136 Ryan O'Callaghan OG 07/19/1983 California

I wrote: "Every year, you need to produce starters to stay relative and every year you need to hit a Pro Bowl caliber player to get to the upper levels. It is just simple math with a salary cap system. Jerry has never accomplished this."

You went on two rants and then YOU JUST WENT OUT AND PROVED MY POINT.

Above you showed a team that found over 23 NFL players from 6 drafts (01-06). A few Pro Bowlers too.

In what 6 year period, does Jerrah on his own have anything close to this?????????

You conveniently also forgot FA which is important and was a part of the comment I made -- not just draft.

I do acknowledge however that Jarrah with Parcells or Jimmy had better player personnel skills. On his own he is a mess.

[TitleTown088]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Roy Williams may have a broken collarbone.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...-roy-williams/

Just a sprain now they say. Good news for my Fantasy.

[M.O.T.H.]

Yup, I was just about to post that. ESPN says X-Rays negative, screw pft. haha.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/traini...ory?id=4427772

So much for Saturday's game being a dress rehearsal with no Williams and possibly Hurd. Luckily neither injury is considered to be that serious, assuming Williams' x-rays really are negative.

[Paul]

Good news I guess, but that's still some valuable missed snaps in practice and in game situations for Roy and Tony.

[D-Unit]

I swear some Cowboys fans want him to fail.

[TitleTown088]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

I swear some Cowboys fans want him to fail.

Every team has those type of fans who seemingly root agianst their team, wanting them to fail so they look right. You should see Packer fans do it for Ted Thompson and Justin Harrell.

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Yup, I was just about to post that. ESPN says X-Rays negative, screw pft. haha.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/traini...ory?id=4427772

So much for Saturday's game being a dress rehearsal with no Williams and possibly Hurd. Luckily neither injury is considered to be that serious, assuming Williams' x-rays really are negative.

What? Hurd got hurt again?!

[D-Unit]

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Octavien leap frogged him on all the second team and ST units anyway and Rogers has had some knee? problems. Something like that. It was looking like Octavien locked down a roster spot even if Brandon Williams could go. We would have kept the three. (Butler, Octavien, Williams) But now, Octavien and Butler are our backup OLBs...pretty interesting. haha.

I never liked Rodgers.

Did anyone see Erik Walden sack Josh Freeman? Looked like a heat seeking missle. Can we have him back?

Isn't it funny how Octavien has outplayed a lot of the back up OLBs and he didn't even cost a draft pick? Brandon Williams was overkill.

Let's undo the Buffalo trade and retake Jarron Gilbert at 51 please.

[leroyisgod]

Well it's good that Williams isn't hurt and won't miss any real playing time. Bad that this is now the 2nd time he's been dinged recently and he'll miss out on some good reps with Romo and the first teamers this week. He and Tony seemed to have a good thing going against the Titans.

[LizardState]

When I read in the morning ppr that Williams left the practice field screaming in frustration I think I wet myself in disgust.... Wade Phillips saw himself joining the 11-12% of Americans who are unemployed too. Really glad he didnt break it.

Now Hurd gets to go solo against Clements & Dre Bly tomorrow. This emphasizes why Dallas needs a 2nd long ball threat. While Jed York & the 9ers are in town, ask him what they want for the rights to Crabtree as we watch in helpless horror as Jerry Jones pisses away yet another future 1st rd. draft pick.

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by D-Unit

I never liked Rodgers.

Did anyone see Erik Walden sack Josh Freeman? Looked like a heat seeking missle. Can we have him back?

Isn't it funny how Octavien has outplayed a lot of the back up OLBs and he didn't even cost a draft pick? Brandon Williams was overkill.

Let's undo the Buffalo trade and retake Jarron Gilbert at 51 please.

Sean Smith wouldn't be bad as a #4 corner either, he's gonna be a gamer, I kept thinking we were going to jump on him.

[LonghornsLegend]

Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine

You might want to, just on occasion, take a look at reality every once in awhile. Let's pick the early 2000s Pats teams (the most successful organization of the decade) to cross check your little "theory".

etc......

What a surprise, Rob still complaining about Jerruh lol...Great post though, puts things in perspective instead of just running off at the mouth, had those been Jerry Jones draft classes the Jerry haters would still complain. Nevermind the fact that Jerry overrode Parcells on more then one occasion in the draft and his override got us players like Demarcus Ware and Terrance Newman(albeit it Kevin Williams is still a great player, but I would still prefer the elite corner especially with us in the 3-4).