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Old 09-29-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Roy Williams is not earning his money right now, but Romo and he don't have the chemistry built the same way Romo has it with Witten. Heck, not even TO had that kind of chemistry. ...one of TO's biggest complaints.

Romo is still maturing. That's why people don't know what he is. He's learning to play without TO. Understandably, it's a big adjustment. Who doesn't get that?

Roy had a bad drop, but that doesn't make him a bad player. He doesn't get enough targets to be taking such criticism.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Why does Martellus Bennett only have three catches? Less action than expected?
We're quickly realizing that there's not enough balls to go around.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
Sorry guys, but Jason Williams will not be taking over for Carp this year. He may be the most physically gifted defensive player we have but, the guy is a project right now. He's raw as it is and now you add the 6 or so weeks he's going to miss, on top of that. We could see him in some nickel situations, where he is rushing the passer a few times this year but, there is no way he's taking over for him.
Sadly, you're right about that. Carp = Trash
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Also, I think we should leave poor Austin and Hurd alone in the early get go. More so Hurd, who is getting crap for not getting open. Erm...hard to get open when you're on the bench. They dont play Hurd much at all. Most of the time they're on running plays and Romo checked to run three times when Hurd was in there yesterday. ugh.

It was nice to see Hurd in there with the rest of the receivers when we went 4 wide and empty back those two times.

And yeah, Austin is getting more snaps than Hurd but, Bennett lining up in the slot has taken a lot of possible PT away from him, as well.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Sadly, you're right about that. Carp = Trash
We sure do miss Kevin Burnett
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Sadly, you're right about that. Carp = Trash
I said it yesterday...it looks like he's getting slower. Bobby was not much of a player before but, I mean come on. He's getting worse.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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And I didnt see anyone post it but Felix is out with a PCL sprain, he's probably out until after our bye week so, three weeks or so. Sigh.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Sadly, you're right about that. Carp = Trash
You know, he might get over exposed if he's used too much on 3rd downs, but Brooking has looked pretty good on the few passes he's defensed.
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Old 09-29-2009, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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D-Unit, I know he has been a whipping boy for you, but Kosier has been outstanding so far this season.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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D-Unit, I know he has been a whipping boy for you, but Kosier has been outstanding so far this season.
Yeah, he has. Right now I'd be an idiot to bash the OL. If they keep it up, we'll win a lot of games. Regardless of our other problems.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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And I didnt see anyone post it but Felix is out with a PCL sprain, he's probably out until after our bye week so, three weeks or so. Sigh.
He's as fragile as a cat. :(
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm just tired of reading excuses for Roy Williams. I would actually take satisfaction in reading everyone on here admit he's a piece of ****. An underachiever. A bust in terms of what was given up for him.

I'm not expecting deep bombs going to RW like they went to Owens.

What I am expecting is a possession receiver who works the underneath and middle of the field. I'm looking for a guy to run good routes, use his big body, and use his big hands to bail his QB out.

A guy who gives you 6-8 catches a game and 4-5 first downs....

I see that guy, but he's white and his jersey says "82" on it, and he gets paid a 3rd as much.

I will give Williams credit for his run blocking. He's been great in that aspect so far.
So all you are asking for is 96-128 catches a year and 64-80 first downs...and since Roy averages 13 or so YPC, that would translate to 1248-1664 yards a season, and there's no way he's justified in not catching at least one TD for every 10 receptions, so that means 10-12 TDs a year, right?

Ic, so all you really want from him is to be Chris Carter in his prime, right? That's all. Fairly reasonable to expect him to play at a HOF pace, considering we gave him such a big contract and paid such a king's ransom of a 1st and 3rd round pick for him--any HOF in the history of the league could be had for such a price, after all.

This is ridiculous. Yes, if you are holding him to that standard, he's a bust and a complete failure. I admit.

However, if we are looking for a guy to catch 70-80 balls for 1100 or so yards and 6-9 TDs, I think he is quite capable. And he's on pace to do that just fine.


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you pretty much made my point for me. We can't go deep against this defense. Ok, there is Austin's excuse for no production.

Now tell me what that has to do with Roy Williams?

Those are the types of games where he should take over and command the middle and underneath, right? He should be catching slants and crossing routes or finding holes in the defense.

You guys all wanna say he isn't T.O., Don't expect the deep bombs, he's not that sorta player -- Ok i don't... So what should I expect?

I would assume that he'll be a great possession guy.

Now you're telling me because the Deep routes were taken away, he was rendered useless? I thought the deep routes "weren't his thing" right? " He's not that type of player" right?

so let me sort through the so called "facts" that you and others on here have put before me...

-Don't expect deep bombs or explosive plays in the mold of T.O.

-He's an underneath player with a big body who is more of a possession guy that keeps the chains moving

-When deep bombs are taken away by the defense, we use that as an excuse for no production, even though said receiver is supposed to be an underneath specialist, not a deep ball threat.

So if the guy isn't producing underneath, and he can't go deep, where can he go?

Please, someone break down what this guy's specialty is for me? Explain why he's our #1?

....Oh wait, it because he can catch a fade route right? Big time redzone target?

oops.

I didn't say he's not capable of big plays. He is, and he's already gotten a 66 yard TD to his name--no matter how much your ridiculous dismissal of it as a "broken coverage" (well, who broke it? Roy and Romo did) the fact remains that he has a 66 yard TD, like it or not--on the season and got another big gainer last night on a deep in route.

I just said not to expect him to be a HOF type WR in the mold of TO or Randy Moss. We should expect him to produce like a prime Fred Barnett, Amani Toomer, Hines Ward, Derrick Mason or someone of that ilk. A good player who might have a career year and make a Pro Bowl team, but not one who is going to dominate the ball or force the other team to gear its entire defense to stop him.

I think he'll have a game soon where he has 6-8 catches for 100+ yards and plays a big part in winning the game. But he shouldn't be judged on such lofty standards because he simply a) hasn't ever done anything to suggest he is that guy and b) doesnt NEED to be that guy for us to get where we are wanting to go.

All he needs to do is be a good player. I think its pretty clear right now that he is that. Lay off him. If our offense keeps playing the way it has the first 3 games, we will be one of the best of all time.
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Old 09-29-2009, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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So all you are asking for is 96-128 catches a year and 64-80 first downs...and since Roy averages 13 or so YPC, that would translate to 1248-1664 yards a season, and there's no way he's justified in not catching at least one TD for every 10 receptions, so that means 10-12 TDs a year, right?

96 catches for 1250 and 10 TD's would be what Roy needs to produce to justify what was given up for him. No, I do not think that is too much to ask.

Ic, so all you really want from him is to be Chris Carter in his prime, right? That's all. Fairly reasonable to expect him to play at a HOF pace, considering we gave him such a big contract and paid such a king's ransom of a 1st and 3rd round pick for him--any HOF in the history of the league could be had for such a price, after all.

This is ridiculous. Yes, if you are holding him to that standard, he's a bust and a complete failure. I admit.

^^ Ok good. Bust and failure is all I wanted to hear. And yes, I am holding him to that standard. Partly because Roy Williams himself claims to be great in the media. Lets see him back up that talk.

However, if we are looking for a guy to catch 70-80 balls for 1100 or so yards and 6-9 TDs, I think he is quite capable. And he's on pace to do that just fine.

70 catches, for 900-1000 yards, and 6 TD's would be pathetic in my eyes. Patrick Crayton was able to put up 700 yards and 7 TD's as the 3rd option in this offense. If you're standards are that low, you're crazy.



I didn't say he's not capable of big plays. He is, and he's already gotten a 66 yard TD to his name--no matter how much your ridiculous dismissal of it as a "broken coverage" (well, who broke it? Roy and Romo did) the fact remains that he has a 66 yard TD, like it or not--on the season and got another big gainer last night on a deep in route.

No, Sabby Piscatelli blew his assignment and it was an easy play. It was pointed out by multiple analysts on multiple networks as blown coverage. Roy just ran untouched (no jam) up the seem and made a play that any D-list nfl WR could make.

I just said not to expect him to be a HOF type WR in the mold of TO or Randy Moss. We should expect him to produce like a prime Fred Barnett, Amani Toomer, Hines Ward, Derrick Mason or someone of that ilk. A good player who might have a career year and make a Pro Bowl team, but not one who is going to dominate the ball or force the other team to gear its entire defense to stop him.

This is what I don't understand... and much like the rest of my rant, this isn't a criticism -- it's an honest question. How are you ok with giving up a 1st, 3rd, and 45 mil to amani toomer, hines wards, or derrick mason?

I realize it's a decision that was made and you are taking the "glass half full" approach but there has to be some decisions that you disagree with right? To me, this is a blatant blunder by our GM.


I think he'll have a game soon where he has 6-8 catches for 100+ yards and plays a big part in winning the game. But he shouldn't be judged on such lofty standards because he simply a) hasn't ever done anything to suggest he is that guy and b) doesnt NEED to be that guy for us to get where we are wanting to go.

All he needs to do is be a good player. I think its pretty clear right now that he is that. Lay off him. If our offense keeps playing the way it has the first 3 games, we will be one of the best of all time.
Responses in bold. With the exception of the last line which I bolded out of shock. One of the best of all time? Did you really just say that about this offense? dude please.
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Old 09-29-2009, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Well then I guess what we should be arguing about is the level of expectations, rather than his level of play. Do you realize that TO did not even produce those types of numbers? His best season with us totaled 81 catches for 1300 yards (though he was admittedly an extraordinary TD scorer). You are not asking him to be TO, you are asking him to be BETTER THAN TO. That is ridiculous, imo.

And we can agree that his contract was a mistake. I disagreed at the time with it and I disagree now. Whoopee, it's done. Part of the negotiation process is handing out bad deals, everyone does it and its just something you want to minimize, cause you can't avoid it. Its predicting the future and no one can play that game and not get burned. Still, at the time I thought it was completely and utterly unnecessary and significantly above market value considering what he had done in the past. It was absolutely a gaffe on the FO's part.


We are averaging 430 yards per game (198 rushing) and 29 ppg. If we do that for an entire season, we will set franchise records for total yards per game, rushing and scoring and will be among the top 10 offenses of all time in yardage and one of the top 30 or so in scoring. That's the truth. People are so busy complaining they don't realize just how good we've been offensively.


I didn't say 900 to 1000 yards, I said 1100 or so. That means 1100 give or take 75 or 100 yards....so if a range is needed I would say 1000-1200 yards with 70 to 80 catches and 6 to 9 TDs. Health permitting, he will get those numbers this year. What you fail to realize is that we just aren't the type of offense that is going to provide him with the opportunity to get more. TO got as much (in many people's minds, more) opportunity as one could ever reasonably expect and his max catches was 85 while his max yards were 1355. Yet somehow, I get the feeling that if Roy ends this season with 80 catches for 1200 yards you are going to be disappointed and feel that he is a major disappoint. That is beyond my comprehension.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Roy Williams is not earning his money right now, but Romo and he don't have the chemistry built the same way Romo has it with Witten. Heck, not even TO had that kind of chemistry. ...one of TO's biggest complaints.

Romo is still maturing. That's why people don't know what he is. He's learning to play without TO. Understandably, it's a big adjustment. Who doesn't get that?

Roy had a bad drop, but that doesn't make him a bad player. He doesn't get enough targets to be taking such criticism.
I agree he is still maturing s a player, but he is still making very bad decisions with the football. What is really slowing his development is the poor blocking schemes and adjustments by Garrett.
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Old 09-29-2009, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, he has. Right now I'd be an idiot to bash the OL. If they keep it up, we'll win a lot of games. Regardless of our other problems.
The o-line is tremendous in the run game. I think they struggle pass protecting due to the schemes they have. It is a coaching problem not the talent on the line.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:32 PM    (permalink
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Well then I guess what we should be arguing about is the level of expectations, rather than his level of play. Do you realize that TO did not even produce those types of numbers? His best season with us totaled 81 catches for 1300 yards (though he was admittedly an extraordinary TD scorer). You are not asking him to be TO, you are asking him to be BETTER THAN TO. That is ridiculous, imo.

And we can agree that his contract was a mistake. I disagreed at the time with it and I disagree now. Whoopee, it's done. Part of the negotiation process is handing out bad deals, everyone does it and its just something you want to minimize, cause you can't avoid it. Its predicting the future and no one can play that game and not get burned. Still, at the time I thought it was completely and utterly unnecessary and significantly above market value considering what he had done in the past. It was absolutely a gaffe on the FO's part.


We are averaging 430 yards per game (198 rushing) and 29 ppg. If we do that for an entire season, we will set franchise records for total yards per game, rushing and scoring and will be among the top 10 offenses of all time in yardage and one of the top 30 or so in scoring. That's the truth. People are so busy complaining they don't realize just how good we've been offensively.


I didn't say 900 to 1000 yards, I said 1100 or so. That means 1100 give or take 75 or 100 yards....so if a range is needed I would say 1000-1200 yards with 70 to 80 catches and 6 to 9 TDs. Health permitting, he will get those numbers this year. What you fail to realize is that we just aren't the type of offense that is going to provide him with the opportunity to get more. TO got as much (in many people's minds, more) opportunity as one could ever reasonably expect and his max catches was 85 while his max yards were 1355. Yet somehow, I get the feeling that if Roy ends this season with 80 catches for 1200 yards you are going to be disappointed and feel that he is a major disappoint. That is beyond my comprehension.
80 and 1200 would make me happy -- but that is a pipe dream. I'll honestly be shocked if he breaks 1000 and 65-70 catches with 6 td's. I see that as his cap, which is far to low to be considered an "elite" receiver or even a good #1

Not saying anyone here is calling him elite, but the ransom we gave up for him would strongly indicate that.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Burns336 View Post
80 and 1200 would make me happy -- but that is a pipe dream. I'll honestly be shocked if he breaks 1000 and 65-70 catches with 6 td's. I see that as his cap, which is far to low to be considered an "elite" receiver or even a good #1

Not saying anyone here is calling him elite, but the ransom we gave up for him would strongly indicate that.
Don't be angry at Roy Williams that Jerry Jones is an idiot.

That is just misplaced.
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Old 09-29-2009, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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Tashard Choice is a beast. I loved him in college and was sad to see him go to the Cowboys after they already took Felix Jones but I'm glad to see him get some playing time. Something I noticed last night is he never went down behind the line of scrimmage. Even when there's not much room to run he always at least gets back to the line. He picked up the blitz well and he did very well catching the ball too. I can't wait to see how he performs when he's getting at least 50% of the carries for an extended period of time.

I also just made my last forum mock pick, here are all of my new Cowboys.

14. Trent Williams, OT Oklahoma
36. Allen Bailey, DT Miami
78. Bruce Campbell, OT Maryland
110. Mike Williams, WR Syracuse
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Old 09-30-2009, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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Don't be angry at Roy Williams that Jerry Jones is an idiot.

That is just misplaced.
Probably the best point anyone has made so far. I have been hating on Roy, mostly over his "busting" in terms of what we gave up for him -- but you're right. Not his fault. Jerry just way overpaid.

I still think we could have had him for a similar price in FA. and even if it was slightly higher, I would of much rather had the draft picks.
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Old 09-30-2009, 01:37 AM    (permalink
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80 and 1200 would make me happy -- but that is a pipe dream. I'll honestly be shocked if he breaks 1000 and 65-70 catches with 6 td's. I see that as his cap, which is far to low to be considered an "elite" receiver or even a good #1

Not saying anyone here is calling him elite, but the ransom we gave up for him would strongly indicate that.
Man, I think we're not still using him properly. How many slant routes have you seen thrown in his direction? Be patient, it's only week 3. It's hard to blame his performance against the Giants, because Romo was clearly off. Monday he had a good game, not great but good. He dropped a TD but he was also overthrown on a deep ball that he had a good chance to catch. And I also think that Romo was scared to throw to his receiver in the first half.
I also don't buy the "broken coverage" argument. A lot of great WRs pad their stats on broken coverages or missed tackles. Look at Desean Jackson, he had 70 yards TD this week just because the Chiefs defense screw it up big time.
I know you're a "the sky is falling" type of guy, but I think you should be more patient. Let's talk again about Roy in week 10, it's too early now ;)
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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The o-line is tremendous in the run game. I think they struggle pass protecting due to the schemes they have. It is a coaching problem not the talent on the line.
But they really haven't struggled in pass protection so far. They've given up 3 sacks in 3 games, and I would argue that if you go back and look at the tape, much of the pressure early in Monday's game was more due to Felix's poor blitz pick up than the OL.

The OL, IMO, is one area that has not been a concern so far.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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80 and 1200 would make me happy -- but that is a pipe dream. I'll honestly be shocked if he breaks 1000 and 65-70 catches with 6 td's. I see that as his cap, which is far to low to be considered an "elite" receiver or even a good #1

Not saying anyone here is calling him elite, but the ransom we gave up for him would strongly indicate that.

Right now he is on course to have about 50 receptions for 950 yards, which is obviously not good numbers. However, Romo just had his career worst game last week, so those projections are likely skewed. I think the 4-6 catches a week number will hold up and he will get on average about 70-80 yards a game. Week 1 and 3 both support that, and in week 2 we couldn't get anything going as a passing team. If he puts up those numbers he will end out with 70-80 receptions for 1120-1280 yards.

I really think this is all over reacting. Once Roy has that one big game where he goes for 150+ and 2 TDs all this talk is going to stop.

I don't think he is an elite guy, but I do think he has a chance to be in that next tier down with the "very good" ones.
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He was protecting his self
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From what? His leg?
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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The 2 TE package is a big part of the reason we've run for 200 yards in consecutive games for the first time since 79 as Beans and Rice are both excellent blockers and force defenses to play nickel to cover both talented receiving TEs.
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Old 09-30-2009, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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But they really haven't struggled in pass protection so far. They've given up 3 sacks in 3 games, and I would argue that if you go back and look at the tape, much of the pressure early in Monday's game was more due to Felix's poor blitz pick up than the OL.

The OL, IMO, is one area that has not been a concern so far.

Exactly.


How on earth do you get the idea that we've struggled in pass pro? Romo has had plenty of time to throw for the majority of the first 3 games. Right now we're on pace to allow 16 sacks for the season, which would be among the 2 or 3 fewest in the league in a given season. Our OL has been the best part of our team so far, both in the running game and the passing game. Absolutely dominant.
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He was protecting his self
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From what? His leg?
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

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