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Old 01-18-2010, 05:04 PM    (permalink
dpl85
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I know it is somewhat unrealistic for us to be able to address all of our needs through FA/draft. I'm just pointing out that there are numerous positions that could use improvement.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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No doubt.

Would like to get some of you guys feedback on Donald Penn.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I just remember him from when we played the Bucs a few times. I think he did fairly well against Ware if I remember correctly. I have an old sporting news scouting guide magazine that should have a brief scouting report on him.. I'll check that later.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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There was a lot of good discussion in here, and I can't quote all of you so I won't quote any of you. But don't take it as a sign of disrespect, bc i never mean it that way.

Put it simply, it was just one of those games. It just makes you realize how hard it is to win a SB. You have to be firing on all cylinders every single playoff game, and thats damn hard to do.

It is what it is. I don't think any of you can be entirely disappointed with the season. The team has taken steps in the right direction, and has proven it can win with Romo.

When breaking down film, theres always 2 ways to look at any play. Either you notice the mistakes your team made on a bad play, or you notice the opposition make a great play. Our bias as fans make us look strictly at the mistakes that our team has made in the heat of the moment, bc we as fans feel that our team always beats itself. Its just the nature of being a fan.

But for every mistake made, the opposition made a play. Thats how it works. You hear it every game, players say the typical "they just made more plays than we did" line.

If you think about it, its true. No team ever plays a perfect game. Theres tons of errors in every game. We just notice the ones that stick out to us that hurt our team. But its an unfair way to look at a game, bc Im sure if we went back and looked at it from the Vikings perspective, they can say the same thing.

For every sack the Cowboys got on Favre, somebody screwed up an assignment or used bad technique and got beat. So it goes both ways.

As for adjustments by Garrett, listen, when youre getting whipped up front by 4 guys like that, no adjustments will work. Sure you can come out with 3 TEs, but then Frazier would just adjust and blitz. So he'd still get the same matchups and win those matchups. They'd adjust to your adjustments. And the results would be the same.

Screen passes? Doesn't mean much when 4 guys get to the passer like that.

Slants? Again, means nothing when you get 4 man pressures like that. It was just one of those games where the line got whipped up front.

The Cowboys moved the ball successfully before Flozell got hurt. Like DMW said, it was mistakes in the redzone that cost the team. So how is Garrett to blame for his oline going to crap when he got hurt? There was nothing he could do about that. The adjustments would get adjusted by the defense. He couldn't do a thing about that.

And don't forget, thats one hell of a dline you went against. They whipped the Giants oline up the same exact way the last week of the season. 4 man rushes getting there within 1.5 seconds. Granted, the Giants clearly quit on the season at that point, but the point remains, thats a bad ass dline and they can get after it.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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Great input BBD

But just to go into this.

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As for adjustments by Garrett, listen, when youre getting whipped up front by 4 guys like that, no adjustments will work. Sure you can come out with 3 TEs, but then Frazier would just adjust and blitz. So he'd still get the same matchups and win those matchups. They'd adjust to your adjustments. And the results would be the same.
No adjustments will work? That's not true and you know it. You can adjust anything to take advantage of something you see on the field. We aren't talking about a game that was out of hand. Hell think about this.

Dallas drove it's first three drives up and down. Some people will say this is because Flozell went down...I think it's because Fraizer who is a hell of a coach adjusted. Garrett didn't. Bob hit on it earlier...safeties came up...corners came up to the LOS to eliminate the quick pass...OLB shaded to the outside and the front 4 pressure got a little more time and Romo couldn't get the ball out as quick. Mix in a few mental mistakes and we were in situations where Romo was stuck between a rock and hard spot...he got flustered and got happy feet...one hoping passes he makes in his sleep....predetermining where he was going with the ball. Austin in tripple coverage on 3rd and 5 comes to mind.

My point is MN adjusted Garrett didn't. This is what great coordinators do. You have to be able to adjust on the fly. If the vikings shutdown the quick pass to the outside you have to adjust. Max protect...run a ******* screen. Run a 3 TE set and look for a matchup you can exploit.

Bottomline is you have to be able to adjust on the fly. Sure Fraizer can adjust again to stop the new stuff...but it should go back and forth...sometimes the defense will win and sometimes the offense will work...but Garrett didn't adjust and we might as well have not even played the last 3 quarters.
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:17 AM    (permalink
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Great input BBD

But just to go into this.



No adjustments will work? That's not true and you know it. You can adjust anything to take advantage of something you see on the field. We aren't talking about a game that was out of hand. Hell think about this.

Dallas drove it's first three drives up and down. Some people will say this is because Flozell went down...I think it's because Fraizer who is a hell of a coach adjusted. Garrett didn't. Bob hit on it earlier...safeties came up...corners came up to the LOS to eliminate the quick pass...OLB shaded to the outside and the front 4 pressure got a little more time and Romo couldn't get the ball out as quick. Mix in a few mental mistakes and we were in situations where Romo was stuck between a rock and hard spot...he got flustered and got happy feet...one hoping passes he makes in his sleep....predetermining where he was going with the ball. Austin in tripple coverage on 3rd and 5 comes to mind.

My point is MN adjusted Garrett didn't. This is what great coordinators do. You have to be able to adjust on the fly. If the vikings shutdown the quick pass to the outside you have to adjust. Max protect...run a ******* screen. Run a 3 TE set and look for a matchup you can exploit.

Bottomline is you have to be able to adjust on the fly. Sure Fraizer can adjust again to stop the new stuff...but it should go back and forth...sometimes the defense will win and sometimes the offense will work...but Garrett didn't adjust and we might as well have not even played the last 3 quarters.
Clarification, Austin had 4 guys descend on his slant.

It was that bad on the part of JG.

Among the worst jobs I have ever seen in a playoff game.

No deep passes.
No seem passes.
No screen passes.
No passes to Roy Williams.
No crossing routes.
No deep INs or Outs.
No TE screen like the one one Sidney Rice got his 2nd TD.
Too few pulling Guards.
Too little Felix outside or Off Tackle..
Too much MBIII.

The Viking Safeties did not have to shower after the game.

JG is a blithering idiot.

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Old 01-19-2010, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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No doubt.

Would like to get some of you guys feedback on Donald Penn.
I would like him. If they don't have the confidence in Free that I think they do, he would be a nice guy to have there. It all depends on how much he'll cost. If he comes cheap it's a no brainer. If he is a little expensive, then it depends on how much faith they have in Doug.
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Old 01-19-2010, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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Well, he's not going to be cheap. He's a LT for goodness sake. And I think he's a pretty good one.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Great input BBD

But just to go into this.



No adjustments will work? That's not true and you know it. You can adjust anything to take advantage of something you see on the field. We aren't talking about a game that was out of hand. Hell think about this.

Dallas drove it's first three drives up and down. Some people will say this is because Flozell went down...I think it's because Fraizer who is a hell of a coach adjusted. Garrett didn't. Bob hit on it earlier...safeties came up...corners came up to the LOS to eliminate the quick pass...OLB shaded to the outside and the front 4 pressure got a little more time and Romo couldn't get the ball out as quick. Mix in a few mental mistakes and we were in situations where Romo was stuck between a rock and hard spot...he got flustered and got happy feet...one hoping passes he makes in his sleep....predetermining where he was going with the ball. Austin in tripple coverage on 3rd and 5 comes to mind.

My point is MN adjusted Garrett didn't. This is what great coordinators do. You have to be able to adjust on the fly. If the vikings shutdown the quick pass to the outside you have to adjust. Max protect...run a ******* screen. Run a 3 TE set and look for a matchup you can exploit.

Bottomline is you have to be able to adjust on the fly. Sure Fraizer can adjust again to stop the new stuff...but it should go back and forth...sometimes the defense will win and sometimes the offense will work...but Garrett didn't adjust and we might as well have not even played the last 3 quarters.

BBD's point remains, though. All that is just so much useless drivel. Scheme will only do so much, and what players do at the POA is what usually decides games. Scheming in the NFL is really, truly, overrated. It is in every sport, really. Coaching and strategy in the NFL makes a much larger difference than in the NBA or MLB, but its still fairly insignificant in regard to the role players play. Dallas' players were in position to make plays, and had the physical talent to make those plays, but they didn't do it.

Call it luck. Call it skill by the opposition. Call it incompetence. But the bottom line is that the players have to make those plays. Most of the season, and especially during the hot streak, those players made those plays. We failed at a key juncture in the game, and then it snow balled. There's not a damn thing Garrett could have done about this loss, though I do think he could have made some adjustments that would have given us a very, very small chance to do better. Ultimately, we were getting whipped. That's what happens in this league sometimes.


The last time I had this feeling was during the 1991 playoffs, when we went into Detroit, having won 6 in a row, including our last 5 regular season games. We had just dispatched the Bears in easy fashion, everyone was saying "watch out for the Boys!" Then we went into Detroit and they laid a whooping on us that I will never forget. We made Eric Kramer look like a prime Marino or Elway in that game. He was passing the ball all over the place and we couldn't do **** to stop him. We couldn't move the ball or stop them from moving it at will. There's a reason why at 38-6 it was the worst loss in Cowboy playoff history.

Like that year, we have a young QB coming into his prime, a young WR who just had a breakout season, a young HB who showed a devastating ability to make plays, a young TE who is at the top of the game at his position and a mammoth OL to pave the way for them. If our defense can be as good over the next 4 years as the Cowboy defense was from 92-95, we will definitely win a SB. Our offense is good enough right now. Its our defense that has to make the improvement. Especially in pass D.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Like that year, we have a young QB coming into his prime, a young WR who just had a breakout season, a young HB who showed a devastating ability to make plays, a young TE who is at the top of the game at his position and a mammoth OL to pave the way for them. If our defense can be as good over the next 4 years as the Cowboy defense was from 92-95, we will definitely win a SB. Our offense is good enough right now. Its our defense that has to make the improvement. Especially in pass D.
Up to this year, I would agree that the offense has been carrying things, but actually the offense ultimately let us down this year. The defense was what got us to the point we were in the playoffs. If the offense had shown up just a little (specifically the OL) that game Sunday is tight in the 4th quarter.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Well, he's not going to be cheap. He's a LT for goodness sake. And I think he's a pretty good one.
Maybe the stench of Tampa Bay's season keeps him under the radar. He's good no doubt, but he might not have major prestige. Of course that's just me wishfully thinking.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Penn was a UDFA and is currently a RFA if he is worth a darn he'll get the highest tender...are you ready to give another 1st and 3rd for a player...no thanks.
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Old 01-19-2010, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Penn was a UDFA and is currently a RFA if he is worth a darn he'll get the highest tender...are you ready to give another 1st and 3rd for a player...no thanks.
Screw that then. He's not worth it IMO.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Penn was a UDFA and is currently a RFA if he is worth a darn he'll get the highest tender...are you ready to give another 1st and 3rd for a player...no thanks.
Are you sure? The site I saw said he was unrestricted.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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What do we need a tackle for? This conversation should be moot now that Free has established his status on the team.
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:50 PM    (permalink
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Are you sure? The site I saw said he was unrestricted.
....ya a site that didn't know the rules for what would happen if a CBA agreement wasn't made.

Any player who has been in the league for less than 6 years is a RFA. This is why FA is going to be terrible this year....
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Old 01-19-2010, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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That sucks.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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Up to this year, I would agree that the offense has been carrying things, but actually the offense ultimately let us down this year. The defense was what got us to the point we were in the playoffs. If the offense had shown up just a little (specifically the OL) that game Sunday is tight in the 4th quarter.
Dominant defenses find ways to keep the other team off the board when things are going bad for the offense. Ours gave up long TDs. You do the math there.


Our defense is good, but its never shown the ability to carry the team. The offense has. We still have yet to field a top 5 unit in YPG since 2003.
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Who cares about YPG....yards don't win games...PPG please.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Who cares about YPG....yards don't win games...PPG please.
PPG > YPG but even PPG can be misleading. Good teams put games away early, and garbage time TDs still count against your PPG. The underlying point is that football is not a game of stats. THAT'S WHY THEY TOOK THE DAMN FIELD!

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Old 01-19-2010, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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PPG > YPG but even PPG can be misleading. Good teams put games away early, and garbage time TDs still count against your PPG. The underlying point is that football is not a game of stats. THAT'S WHY THEY TOOK THE DAMN FIELD!

/Dennis Green'd
Yep. Ward speaks the truth. We were 2nd in the entire NFL in PPG allowed behind the Jets. Was our Defense the 2nd best in the league? Hardy har har... :/
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Old 01-19-2010, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Mike (Denver)


It doesnt seem like Jason Garrett knows how to make key adjustments or that he just have a good feel for the flow of the game. What are your thoughts on that subject?
Mosley
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I concur.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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What was that, Mick's mail or something?

I'd say it depends on the game. The guy is really game to game. You never know what you're going to get. I guess we should be happy we got that string at the end of the year but, it is annoying, seeing him fail at the same things over and over. He was def. a lot better this year than last year, though. So there is hope. Near the end of the year, I actually felt very confident in him for a while there. The worst of his growing pains seem to be over...sure would nice to hire some kind of consultant, still sucks that we couldnt get that deal done with Reeves. I'd still love a veteran play caller, though. ha.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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In two different playoff games, JG has gotten absolutely smoked by 2 elite defensive coordinators (Spagnuolo, Frazier). In the game against Pittsburgh last season when after the game some of their players said they knew exactly what we were going to run - Dick LeBeau.

I think the bottom line is that JG is a young, intelligent coordinator who hasn't shown he can hang with the elites. I don't think we should crucify him for some of these big games, because all of the guys I mentioned are great. But this is the NFL. Are we trying to be good, or are we trying to be the best? I don't think you can say that we could use a huge upgrade over Phillips as DC. I think we could use an upgrade at offensive coordinator. The weapons are too talented for this BS to keep happening.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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The thing is....did Jason Garrett do enough to get fired? Obviously me as a fan think we should move in another direction. But that is a BALLSY call for a GM to make...especially one with the family relationship that Jones's and Garrett's.

I think if this was truly Wades team and Wade had a OC he likes that the move could be made. That said, it's very unlikely that it happens. And we'll be much the same next year on offense. God thats depressing to say.
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