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Old 12-20-2010, 01:02 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Ask the Lions if winning these games are important or not. I never believed in the whole "if you don't make the playoffs try for the #1 pick". You can't say you want to be competitive until late then lose. You can't just continue to lose these games and expect the team to learn how to win.


You have to want to win these games but while these are grown men, they need to learn HOW to win still. Close games, when you were up big and they came back to tie it, when you were down and came back to tie it, 2 min drills, that stuff sticks with the team and carries over.


Same with Detroit, they are finally learning how to actually "win" games now. Close games. Not just games they played good and lost at the end. Do you think it would help them more if they just went 1-15 for 6 seasons in a row and just expect them to jump to a playoff team who knows how to win tight games?


I want us to come into next season feeling like with Romo we have the confidence to go out and win any game since we did with Kitna. Plus, the draft has so many great players in it now. If you missed McFadden you can get Chris Johnson. If you miss Leodis McKelvin you get Brandon Flowers.


You just need to scout properly, I don't 100% trust ours but I do know that we can get an elite, all pro type of player in the top 20 no matter who we miss out on. 5 more picks won't replace what winning does for a team in the long run, and also me enjoying my Sundays :)
They need to learn how to win??? That is so full of BS right there. Everyone knows what needs to happen in order to win. The ability is not there. Not the desire or knowhow. How many times in history do we have to look back at teams who have bounced back from bad seasons to know that quick turn arounds are possible. Noting the Lions as the prime example is a joke and I'm sure you know it.

Whether we win 3 games or 6 games, there is NO DAMN DIFFERENCE in feeling closer to being winners. ...and that feeling is full of BS anyways.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Let's hope he can restructure and wants to stay. Seeing the jump ball to sam hurd was laughable at best. Just Roy's body type is worthy of defensive schemes in the NFL. Roy gets released, and you're left with Dez and Ogletree if Austin gets hurt, or Austin and Ogletree if Dez gets hurt again. Does that scare anyone in the league? Especially with Austin being shut down when schemed against.
Put me in the boat that says let's restructure him and act like we want him to stay... then when he signs his new deal, we trade his ass. Teams will want him once he gets paid less.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Yea, I'm pretty tough on Roy but if he got paid closer to what he's good for I'd love him as a player. Thing is with Roy though, is he still always thinks he's the best WR on the team, he wants the ball alot, wants to be the go to guy etc. He's never said he's ok with being a role player and when you listen to him talk you know he isn't.


Dez is gonna break out next year and Austin will be better with Romo, throw in Witten and us running the ball more he only gets a few shots a game or a chance when an injury happens. He's gonna get pissed off with that.
Well...yea that's when the coach says ...."So What?"....

Obviously this is all contingent on him restructuring...so something tells me he's not willing to take a pay cut...and still expect to be treated like a #1. Won't happen. Roy restructures it'll be because he knows he's not getting more than 3-5 looks a game barring injury.

I'd be happy with that.


And I'm sorry D-Unit...I don't see how you can buy into the notion of losing. That's exactly what it is. There needs to be changes across the board, and it's been a disappointing season. Let's hope that's all it takes for Jerry to get the message. The difference between a 8th pick and a 4th pick alone isn't going to change the landscape of this team next year. The entire process(as Garrett would say), has to change. From top to bottom. There's still great players in the 6-15 range that can be had that can make an instant impact. You can't seriously sit up here and preach the significance of losing out, then look at teams like the Colts/Pats/Ravens/Steelers/etc that are contenders year after year while drafting in the mid to late 20's. The difference is those teams scout well, and expect greatness from those young players, year after year.....

Have you seen the Pats young defense, and the difference from the first 8 games to now? Going into the year(and still slightly now...it's the homer in me), if you put the Pats Defensive roster against the Boys defensive roster, and told me to pick one, I'd hands down pick the Cowboys.

It comes down to coaching, scouting, and having knowledgeable people in the front office. 2 of 3 of those will be decided on this offseason. We just have to hope Garrett can fix this thing.

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Old 12-20-2010, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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They need to learn how to win??? That is so full of BS right there. Everyone knows what needs to happen in order to win. The ability is not there. Not the desire or knowhow. How many times in history do we have to look back at teams who have bounced back from bad seasons to know that quick turn arounds are possible. Noting the Lions as the prime example is a joke and I'm sure you know it.

Whether we win 3 games or 6 games, there is NO DAMN DIFFERENCE in feeling closer to being winners. ...and that feeling is full of BS anyways.
I think the main point I see for not tanking it is, we're not 1 player away from anything. We need some help in a lot of areas, alot of which we can get through free agency. It's not as if we get Petersen and all of a sudden we're golden, this isn't the NBA where one guy can turn it around. In addition, picking 12th doesn't preclude us from getting a great player if we do our homework and if we get lucky. Look at 2005, getting Ware at 11.

Also, this isn't a lame duck coaching situation, we needed to evaluate Garrett, and we have. I guess the best situation for you would have been to keep Wade through the end of the year, fire everyone at the end of the season, and have the #1 pick. I just don't agree that it's the best scenario.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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I am not sure about Shanny but I am not thrilled with the idea of father son being on the same staff. Where does the line between HC-OC and father-son begin and end? I don't like that type of dynamic.
Sadly, that's how things work in Italy.
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Old 12-20-2010, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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I think the main point I see for not tanking it is, we're not 1 player away from anything. We need some help in a lot of areas, alot of which we can get through free agency. It's not as if we get Petersen and all of a sudden we're golden, this isn't the NBA where one guy can turn it around. In addition, picking 12th doesn't preclude us from getting a great player if we do our homework and if we get lucky. Look at 2005, getting Ware at 11.

Also, this isn't a lame duck coaching situation, we needed to evaluate Garrett, and we have. I guess the best situation for you would have been to keep Wade through the end of the year, fire everyone at the end of the season, and have the #1 pick. I just don't agree that it's the best scenario.
Well, if you assume most of our needs will be addressed in FA, then I can understand where your thinking is coming from, although I disagree on it completely. We haven't been active shoppers in FA for years because we've been busy locking up our own guys... which will continue to be an issue this year with Free looking for a new deal.

I agree on the coaching situation though. Garrett needed to be evaluated and he's earned it. However, that said... being competitive till the end regardless of wins or loses would've kept Garret here. Also, he sealed the deal in getting the job when he beat Indy. None of this matters anymore. He's already got it. So yeah, I'm pissed about winning yesterday.

Also, it's not about just picking up 1 player high in Round 1. It's about picking high in every round.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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You realize the Colts & Pats are consistently picking in the bottom 10 every single year right? I don't understand why you're taking this we need to pick top 7 stance?

There need to be changes from the top down. The FO needs to stop coddling players and make tough decisions that benefit the organization. That's all it comes down to man. As much as I hate it, trading Witten would net a high pick or two. Decisions like that are what good football teams do that want to compete year after year.

The front office(See. Jerry) just need to make better football decisions. It's that simple. You're basically making it seem as if unless you draft in the top 5 every round you can't field a competitive team. That's just not true.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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You realize the Colts & Pats are consistently picking in the bottom 10 every single year right? I don't understand why you're taking this we need to pick top 7 stance?

There need to be changes from the top down. The FO needs to stop coddling players and make tough decisions that benefit the organization. That's all it comes down to man. As much as I hate it, trading Witten would net a high pick or two. Decisions like that are what good football teams do that want to compete year after year.

The front office(See. Jerry) just need to make better football decisions. It's that simple. You're basically making it seem as if unless you draft in the top 5 every round you can't field a competitive team. That's just not true.
Trading Witten would be terrible, he is Romo's most reliable receiver. Trust like that doesn't develop overnight. He's a cornerstone for our team, you don't trade away guys like that.
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Old 12-20-2010, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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They need to learn how to win??? That is so full of BS right there. Everyone knows what needs to happen in order to win. The ability is not there. Not the desire or knowhow. How many times in history do we have to look back at teams who have bounced back from bad seasons to know that quick turn arounds are possible. Noting the Lions as the prime example is a joke and I'm sure you know it.

Whether we win 3 games or 6 games, there is NO DAMN DIFFERENCE in feeling closer to being winners. ...and that feeling is full of BS anyways.
I agree with this x10, we are not the Lions. We have experienced some pretty damn good success with this current core of players. These guys know how to win, they've done it. We need to fix our weak links on the OLine and in the defense, it's that simple.

You think guys like Ratliff, Witten and Ware really care about these meaningless W's we're getting?
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Trading Witten would be terrible, he is Romo's most reliable receiver. Trust like that doesn't develop overnight. He's a cornerstone for our team, you don't trade away guys like that.
That was just an example....I'm just saying the better franchises trade players a year too early, start the young players, and scout/draft well. We haven't done any of the mentioned things well lately.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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I agree with this x10, we are not the Lions. We have experienced some pretty damn good success with this current core of players. These guys know how to win, they've done it. We need to fix our weak links on the OLine and in the defense, it's that simple.

You think guys like Ratliff, Witten and Ware really care about these meaningless W's we're getting?
Ratliff, Witten and Ware, with 1 playoff win in their career, are not like the Pats or Colts players, they haven't won anything. Ratliff and Witten played like crap during the first 8 games, and until recently, Witten's run after the catch resembled someone running with high heels on. This team after 8 games was worse than the Lions, they had given up. So this 8 game stretch does mean something, if only to evaluate Garrett and show what physical practices can do for this success of this team.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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That was just an example....I'm just saying the better franchises trade players a year too early, start the young players, and scout/draft well. We haven't done any of the mentioned things well lately.
Bingo! Completely agree. I myself would trade Witten if I could get a deal like Gonzo was traded for. A 2nd and 3rd for Witten means bye bye Witten for me. I could use the picks on other players and let Martellus Bennett and John Phillips and a middle round pick.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Ratliff, Witten and Ware, with 1 playoff win in their career, are not like the Pats or Colts players, they haven't won anything. Ratliff and Witten played like crap during the first 8 games, and until recently, Witten's run after the catch resembled someone running with high heels on. This team after 8 games was worse than the Lions, they had given up. So this 8 game stretch does mean something, if only to evaluate Garrett and show what physical practices can do for this success of this team.
Completely agree.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Trading Witten is blasphemy. What he does for this team means way more than just on the field production. Stop. A 2nd round o-lineman and a 3rd round safety don't deserve to put witten's jock strap in the washing machine.

Stop.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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Who/What are you responding to? I said it was an example...Could've easily been any other player worthy of trading on the Cowboys roster...Example still applies.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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You realize the Colts & Pats are consistently picking in the bottom 10 every single year right? I don't understand why you're taking this we need to pick top 7 stance?
That's why I'm not too worried about where they pick. Yeah, picking high gives you a better choice of who you want, but it doesn't matter if you have a front office that doesn't draft well. Detroit and Oakland always get blue chip prospects, yet they never have the same success as perennial top 20 pickers like the Colts, Steelers, and Titans. The Cowboys have shown the ability to find steals in later rounds, so I have confidence that they can get a good player anywhere. I'm really more worried about them getting too cute like in 2009. They don't need to get too flashy or pick greedy. They just need to focus on finding players with a premium on intelligence and heart to turn the team around.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Only a fool would trade Witten. The chemistry he has between Romo is invaluable. It makes up for a lot of normal weaknesses. ie. If Martellus Bennett had lost a step, he'd be useless to this team. Same doesn't go for Witten because of his years and years of building a relationship with Romo. The Patriots wouldn't do that. You don't see them trading Wes Welker do you?

The assumptions are lovely... but wildly inaccurate.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Jesus christ, throw out the Witten example..it was just that...an example. Let's say Barber a year or 2 ago, or Newman BEFORE he became a liability....You're avoiding the point I'm making in that winning franchises have Front offices that make tough decisions that consistently churn the roster and add new talent...despite drafting late in each round. The Pats trading Richard Seymour is a perfect example of this...at 29 he obviously had some years left in him, and was playing at a pro-bowl level.

Respond to that....or ignore it like you've been doing...either way...The Witten example wasn't the main point.

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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Also the Steelers didn't trade Heinz Ward 4 years ago, the Ravens didn't trade Ray Lewis 5 years ago, the Colts didn't trade Reggie Wayne because they have a bunch of other WR's producing, etc etc.



While you can say good teams let great players go it's true, but there are some guys you don't just go "Madden" with and trade for mid round picks. There are times when trading a guy isn't even an option, Witten is one of those guys and he's gonna retire a Cowboy.


It's not even a chance for him to be traded, but every so often someone always throws him into an off-season plan where we get some mid round picks lol. I'm not gonna lie when I start my madden franchise the first thing I do is trade Witten for Jermichael Finley and a 3rd round pick, but that's the only place he's gonna be getting traded so were just wasting our time talking about how it would help us out.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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and on Barber I wish we could have traded him as soon as we saw what we had in Choice. Which should of been before the 2009 season, and he gave us alot in terms of heart and intangibles but he's not on the untouchable level of Witten where a good pick would of been worth it for Barber even awhile ago.


At this point we missed the boat, nobody wants him now, and I think he's another guy who gets cut. We can't worry about hurting feelings on the team when we lost 10 games.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Jesus christ, throw out the Witten example..it was just that...an example. Let's say Barber a year or 2 ago, or Newman BEFORE he became a liability....You're avoiding the point I'm making in that winning franchises have Front offices that make tough decisions that consistently churn the roster and add new talent...despite drafting late in each round. The Pats trading Richard Seymour is a perfect example of this...at 29 he obviously had some years left in him, and was playing at a pro-bowl level.

Respond to that....or ignore it like you've been doing...either way...The Witten example wasn't the main point.
You can't compare Seymour with Witten in what they mean to their team. It's a lot easier to find a replacement 5-tech than it is to find a replacement go-to guy for your QB, especially with the chemistry of Romo to Witten.

And winning franchises do not trade away franchise guys, I don't know what evidence you have to back that statement up. I think you'd be hard pressed to find even 3 examples of winning teams who traded away a blue chip guy in his prime for draft picks.
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Old 12-21-2010, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Here's something to look for on Saturday:

Arizona's offense line has allowed the 2nd most sacks in the NFL only behind Chicago with 43 this season. Ware is 2.5 sacks behind NFL sack leader Cameron Wake going into week 16.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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I admit I would trade Witten. If a team were to give me a 2nd and 3rd I would do it. Witten is great but he will be in a contract year next year and if we re-sign him it will be based on his current and previous play and not how well he will play out the rest of his contract. He's declined as a blocker has already taken a ton of hits and was not the most athletic guy to begin with. As he grows with age I expect him to threaten the seam less and less. I just dont see tight end being an issue when we have marty b who will break out if ever given extensive playing time and john phillips. IMO tight ends are easily replaceable. A team like New England would get rid of him in a heart beat. I could care less if he's Romo's best friend if our passing offense collaspses because we dont have Witten maybe Romo, Dez, and Miles arent as good as we thought. With those picks you could rebuild the worst defense in Cowboys history and the offense wouldnt miss a beat.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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Jason Witten will probably be a Hall of Fame player. He'll probably pass Michael Irvin in terms of catches in 2-3 years, he's a great receiver and blocker, and he's considered the best tight end in the game right now. You don't trade players like that for draft picks. Draft picks are potential while great players are the pieces that you need to build a successful team. You don't trade a player that is everything you need for draft picks. That is not only backwards thinking in terms of team progression, but it sends a bad message to current and future players. Dallas wouldn't be a hot place for free agency all of a sudden if they decided to get rid of a great player in his prime.

The goal of getting new players is to upgrade on what you have or to replace something that is missing. You would be hard pressed to upgrade Witten, and getting rid of him creates a problem of losing the most reliable offensive weapon you have had in years. It's also not like you have only 3 or 4 picks in the upcoming draft. They have 7 picks in the upcoming draft, and that's enough to get new players on the team. Losing Witten loses the matchup problems he causes for opposing defenses, an easy target for Romo when under pressure, and it puts more heat on Miles and Dez in the passing game.
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Trading Witten is absolute blasphemy. The dude is 28 and is already a HOFer. He can't be replaced. People who would trade him for a 2nd and a 3rd are absolutely ********. He can't be replaced.

Like they say, you don't realize what you have till its gone. Witten may run a freakin 5.3 forty right now, but the guy is a baller. He is invaluable. Stop with the blasphemy. If he was 32 then MAYBE i couldt listen to the talk, but the dude is 28, and to top that off speed was never his game anyway. the dude still has 5+ pro-bowl years left. You could easily bust on those 2nd and 3rd round players or they could be back-ups and you got NOTHING in return... FOR A HALL OF FAME TIGHT END.

AKA... GET THE **** OUT.
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