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Old 10-20-2011, 11:07 AM    (permalink
Macarthur
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We took Roy Williams, Terence Newman and Mike Jenkins, all in the first round and our secondary has been **** for the past decade. We took Orlando Scandrick in the 5th round and we just gave him $27 million.

This idea that certain positions aren't "impactful" is ********. They may not be glamorous, but you're damn straight they're just as important. If we had a C that was worth a ****, we wouldn't be worried week in and week out whether Brandon Spikes is gonna rape our running game up the middle, or if Tony Romo is gonna get the ball thrown in his face while he's adjusting his blocks.
Scandrick is by far the exception, not the rule.

I don't care about glamor. As D said, there are certain positions that have bigger impacts on games - CB, DL, OT, QB, WR & RB. Guards just don't have a big impact on games, for the most part. I don't think guard is a good value in the first round. Period. You certainly can disagree, but that's what I think and you can also add safety to that. And if you follow the draft as closely as most of us do on here, football front offices tend to work on this premise, as well. Safeties, guards and centers rarely go in the first round.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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The problem with that is that we've reached into that well multiple times already and come out empty handed. When you have a higher chance of securing a pro-bowl caliber player at g/c, why not go there? We keep taking risks on hitting on one of those guys at the premiere skill positions and we keep coming out empty.

I'm done with playing the long-term, developmental game. We can't develop offensive linemen. Look at what happened when we took Smith, he stepped right in and is probably handily the best OL guy we have. Our defense has played very well while our offensive line has been dog ****. If we had anyone worth a crap in the interior line, we might be undefeated right now. We can't keep ignoring those issues. I want a big signing or a high draft pick on that line. Preferably both.
Really? Who? Our 1st round picks on Newman, Jenkins, Felix and Dez left us empty handed?

We also developed Free ... and in a sense Colombo. I believe in Arkin and I believe the path he's on is the right path.

I get the sense of urgency in needing to fix the interior OL, but using a 1st rounder doesn't guarantee that either. Eagles drafted Danny Watkins, who is struggling as a rookie and he was pegged as an "NFL ready" prospect. If we want NFL ready guys, the best place to get one is in FA. Carl Nicks, Ben Grubbs are both FAs. I can't see them being franchised. Brees and Rice are FAs and I think those teams will use the tag on them first. It just depends if it has to come to that point first, but it's in the best interest of them to test FA.

Jerry used to opt for FA/trade to fill our immediate OL needs. Marco Rivera, Kyle Kosier, Leonard Davis, Marc Colombo... then for some reason didn't do that once he gave the reigns to Garrett. Jerry needs to get back to his old philosophy. We just need 1 Guard. Arkin will replace Kosier in time.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Our problems with the interior line has really handcuffed us, it shows in Garrett's playcalling. We have to resort to 3 step drops and a lot of underneath stuff because the line just can't be trusted, and it's wasting the talent we have at receiver.

I don't buy into the theory that taking a Guard or Center in Round 1 is bad value, especially if you've been paying attention to the offense and the problems those positions have caused us the past 2 seasons. We need to fix it if we want our offense to run properly, until then we're going to be forced to run a conservative scheme and we'll be on here every Monday wondering why Dez or Miles aren't being used properly.
Still see tunnel vision here. The draft isn't the only place to get an NFL ready starter.

In FA, there are no Nnamdi Asomugha's... It's bad enough that we're paying Newman $8M this season. He has 2 more years left. Sorry, but he's not producing at that pay grade. He'll be gone and we should use our 1st on a CB.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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I overlooked that, and actually forgot about him, that's how bad it's gotten. But no way we can get Harris to PS, he can probably make the STL roster right now, Buffalo? Yea, there are some teams who are trotting out PS players already at WR and we aren't even halfway through.


I figured Harris was a longterm pick anyway, at least Holley brings ST to the table, Ogletree should be a problem elsewhere.
This is where homerism comes into play. Harris did clear waivers and make it to our practice squad. Sometime we get a little amped up about our players..sometimes we need to take a step back and not overrate our talent.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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^^^I agree...Harris looked promising, but he hasn't contributed anything on PR or in a game. I loved Garrett's answer to this..."We're not going to just keep players on our roster because we drafted them, we'll put whoever is making plays on the field."

Love that...keep churning the roster. Laurent Robinson has added depth to the WR's and Harris became expendable, even if he looked promising. Robinson has made it count when needed.

I have one question though. Why haven't they released Beuhler?! I'm hoping it's because they don't want to give him an injury settlement, and as soon as he's completely healed they cut him. Bailey has been dead center on every kick.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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This is where homerism comes into play. Harris did clear waivers and make it to our practice squad. Sometime we get a little amped up about our players..sometimes we need to take a step back and not overrate our talent.
Not exactly. It wasn't a situation where it was Harris vs someone NOT on the team. Both Harris and Ogletree are Cowboys. Liking one over the other doesn't come across as homerism to me.

I just think Harris has more potential than Oggs. Plus, I hate the idea of dropping our 5th rounder like that. I know 5ths hardly ever make it anyways, but he hasn't even been given a chance as a receiver. Are his practices that bad? Maybe so. We'll never know. But I thought he was a highlight of the draft and I drew a personal liking to him as a prospect. So that's part of it too.

Glad he made it back to our PS.
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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^^^I agree...Harris looked promising, but he hasn't contributed anything on PR or in a game. I loved Garrett's answer to this..."We're not going to just keep players on our roster because we drafted them, we'll put whoever is making plays on the field."

Love that...keep churning the roster. Laurent Robinson has added depth to the WR's and Harris became expendable, even if he looked promising. Robinson has made it count when needed.

I have one question though. Why haven't they released Beuhler?! I'm hoping it's because they don't want to give him an injury settlement, and as soon as he's completely healed they cut him. Bailey has been dead center on every kick.
Keeping Robinson over Harris really wasn't the issue.

My question is what the heck do they see in Loper?
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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Not exactly. It wasn't a situation where it was Harris vs someone NOT on the team. Both Harris and Ogletree are Cowboys. Liking one over the other doesn't come across as homerism to me.

I just think Harris has more potential than Oggs. Plus, I hate the idea of dropping our 5th rounder like that. I know 5ths hardly ever make it anyways, but he hasn't even been given a chance as a receiver. Are his practices that bad? Maybe so. We'll never know. But I thought he was a highlight of the draft and I drew a personal liking to him as a prospect. So that's part of it too.

Glad he made it back to our PS.
You might wanna go back and read the post I was replying too.

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But no way we can get Harris to PS, he can probably make the STL roster right now, Buffalo?
Just pointing out to LL that sometimes we overrate our own talent...
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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You might wanna go back and read the post I was replying too.



Just pointing out to LL that sometimes we overrate our own talent...


St. Louis??? What's he thinkin'?!! They have Greg Salas!!!

Side note: We need your thoughts in the Draft thread! Your draft blog keeping you that busy?

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Old 10-20-2011, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Theres no right or wrong formula for drafting positions. Our entire secondary is comprised of 1st and 2nd round talent. Yet GB has a couple of udfas, yet both have great secondaries.

Talent is talent. The good GMs don't get caught up in positions, they go bpa. The great ones find the right balance btw bpa and need.
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Old 10-20-2011, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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I also think coaching and the development of young talent is so overlooked. Good organizations have the structure, programs, and coaching staffs in place that know how to develop talent. Its no coincidence that good organizations generally stay competitive and poor ones generally don't, even with the higher draft picks.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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I also think coaching and the development of young talent is so overlooked. Good organizations have the structure, programs, and coaching staffs in place that know how to develop talent. Its no coincidence that good organizations generally stay competitive and poor ones generally don't, even with the higher draft picks.
ding ding. it is what made bp a great coach .. certainly not his in game decisions.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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ding ding. it is what made bp a great coach .. certainly not his in game decisions.
I agree. Development is so critical.

The Garrett regime has proven that they are more interested in only having guys on the roster that can "beat out" their competition. ...and that concerns me.

When he says stuff like, "We're not going to just keep players on our roster because we drafted them, we'll put whoever is making plays on the field."

That's the antithesis of wanting to develop players.

Just another reason knock him as a HC, I guess.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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I agree. Development is so critical.

The Garrett regime has proven that they are more interested in only having guys on the roster that can "beat out" their competition. ...and that concerns me.

When he says stuff like, "We're not going to just keep players on our roster because we drafted them, we'll put whoever is making plays on the field."

That's the antithesis of wanting to develop players.

Just another reason knock him as a HC, I guess.
You'd have a point.........

........


Except then he keeps players like Oggs, Tanner, Loper.....

The point I'm making is that because he's not keeping who YOU want him to keep, he's not developing talent? We're playing armchair QB and have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Wade got a huge knock for drafting players and them never contributing. There's a balance here guys...Again, let's give the guy more than a few months before we knock him for cutting a late round WR or CB. Especially a WR that made it back to the practice squad(pretty telling, btw)

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Old 10-20-2011, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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Theres no right or wrong formula for drafting positions. Our entire secondary is comprised of 1st and 2nd round talent. Yet GB has a couple of udfas, yet both have great secondaries.

Talent is talent. The good GMs don't get caught up in positions, they go bpa. The great ones find the right balance btw bpa and need.
I disagree. There are definitely wrong formulas to drafting. So many ways to go wrong.

I think what you are referencing is that there is no exact formula for success, as there are many routes to get there. But there's no direct tie back to the draft in that regard.

I think drafting is an art, a science, a gut feeling and a lot of luck. Talent is talent, yes, but talent doesn't always equate to success. It's like anything else... it involves being in the right spot at the right time, knowing the right people/networking, getting along, impressing people and then beating out your competition.

As far as GM'ing... The part I bolded in what you said... they are kind of 2 different things.

"The good GMs don't get caught up in positions, they go bpa."

"The great ones find the right balance btw bpa and need."

Going strictly BPA goes against BPA according to need. Right or wrong, I don't know, but I've always favored the latter.

If the Cowboys go WR in Round 1 just because the BPA is a WR, that makes me think this team doesn't know how to properly use it's resources to fill it's needs. I know the Giants have stockpiled DBs and DEs, but it came at the cost of not being able to address other weaknesses. I don't like that philosophy. It's not too bad because DBs and DEs are both highly paid, highly coveted positions. If they were stockpiling OGs and Cs, I'd think they were more than a little nutso.

In the draft which is just one piece of the puzzle, you gotta have a strategy that fits in line with a bigger whole picture. An encompassing philosophical approach to building up your roster that involves the draft, free agency, trade, player development, and the management of salaries.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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You'd have a point.........

........


Except then he keeps players like Oggs, Tanner, Loper.....

The point I'm making is that because he's not keeping who YOU want him to keep, he's not developing talent? We're playing armchair QB and have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.

Wade got a huge knock for drafting players and them never contributing. There's a balance here guys...Again, let's give the guy more than a few months before we knock him for cutting a late round WR or CB. Especially a WR that made it back to the practice squad(pretty telling, btw)
That's true. I made a point to question that maybe Harris wasn't having good practices.

But that quote was in reference to his mentality, not his decision on Harris.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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This is where homerism comes into play. Harris did clear waivers and make it to our practice squad. Sometime we get a little amped up about our players..sometimes we need to take a step back and not overrate our talent.
Thule it's ridiculous you'd even try to call me a homer as long as you've seen me post. You know better then that. So I'm a homer for wanting us to keep crappy ass Ogletree over Harris? Yea ok...


He did make it back to the PS, nobody signed him, so let's just assume that means he sucks right?


Or did you forget that Arian Foster was released also, who picked him up? Oh yea that's right, nobody did. He went back to the PS for Houston and stayed there until the end of the season when he was called up. You know how that story ended up.


How many times was James Harrison on somebodies PS? There are a ton of guys who were on the PS before at some point that are stars, I NEVER, not even remotely close painted the picture that Harris was some sort of stud in the making. I said he was the wrong cut, over Ogletree, period. That much is STILL true no matter if we are the only team who was even going to draft Harris.


He's a very natural PR, never flinches at players in his face, I can trust he'll never drop a ball back there. We have Oggs and Murray praticing catching punts this week, when we muff 1 of those you'll remember what it was liked to not worry about that kinda stuff.


That, and he's still going to get alot better. We just drafted him, and for good reason. Steve Johnson was a BUM for the Bills for 2 years in a row. He had 12 catches for 102 yards in 2 seasons combined. He was a 7th round pick. If he was dropped after his first 5-6 games I wonder how many people would have put in a claim for a 7th round WR that hadn't done anything?


Probably no one. But what bearing would any of that have on his future?


You can take that homer stuff elsewhere. Why can't we just be happy he made it back to the PS? He's a good player, and a draft pick. I never was trying to beat up Garret about it or go into this long spill about how terrible he is over a small move, just that we shouldn't have kept Oggs, or even Holley over him.


But hey, I forgot you can't like anyone on your team that isn't a pro bowler or your a homer.


edit: and yes, i was wrong in thinking we wouldnt get him to the PS. I was glad I was. As we all are wrong about different things all year round. That's never gonna change.
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Old 10-21-2011, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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For the record...I don't think he was specifically calling you a Homer....just saying that we as fans typically overrate our own players. It's a "homerisitic" way of looking at each player. We all do it.....I think that's all he was saying. Nothing to get up in arms or offended about really.
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Old 10-21-2011, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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For the record...I don't think he was specifically calling you a Homer....just saying that we as fans typically overrate our own players. It's a "homerisitic" way of looking at each player. We all do it.....I think that's all he was saying. Nothing to get up in arms or offended about really.
Don't worry. Some good things were said. I didn't think LL was up in arms.

On to other things... I have a question...

Who has a better statistical game... Murray or Choice....

Now remember... look at it without being "homeristic". LOL. I know you all want to say Murray because he's the fresh fancy draft pick and hasn't been given the chance to get dissected like Choice has been.

So go on, let's hear it. :)
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Old 10-21-2011, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Don't worry. Some good things were said. I didn't think LL was up in arms.

On to other things... I have a question...

Who has a better statistical game... Murray or Choice....

Now remember... look at it without being "homeristic". LOL. I know you all want to say Murray because he's the fresh fancy draft pick and hasn't been given the chance to get dissected like Choice has been.

So go on, let's hear it. :)
Choice

I think he'll be given more of the carries. I still think Choice is a quality back. In the games he's been given a chance, he's shown he can be solid.

St Louis has the worst rush defense in the league. If we cannot get at least 130 yards in this game, I'll be surprised. Even with a baned up and young oline. Their pass defense is middle of the pack, which I'm quite surprised by.
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:17 PM    (permalink
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Choice is pretty good to solid in add facets of the game with the exception of pass blocking. Hoping he doesn't get Romo killed.
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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For the record...I don't think he was specifically calling you a Homer....just saying that we as fans typically overrate our own players. It's a "homerisitic" way of looking at each player. We all do it.....I think that's all he was saying. Nothing to get up in arms or offended about really.
So you are not a homer but you have homer tendencies. Like that crazy wild night in college when you s*cked some dude's p*nis and you were not drunk enough to forget about it. Not ho'mo' at all <sarc>. But as the saying goes -- once is a curiosity twice is a trend.

ROTFLMAO!!!!
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:32 AM    (permalink
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Lol, not exactly what I had in mind.
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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Lol, not exactly what I had in mind.
Me neither!
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Old 10-22-2011, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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this just got weird lol
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