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Old 12-13-2011, 09:41 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Pretty much what Fresh said along with adding the caveat that our expectations for this year went from reasonable to insane due to overachieving. You can tell we have a lot of the pieces but until we fix our interior line and add some talent on defense we are going to have to cope with losing some close ones.

Statistically on games decided by less than 7 you will win 50% of the time. Garrett since he took over coaching has had 14 games decided by <7 ... guess his record? 7-7.

If we beat the Eagles and then beat the Giants we're in. While it would be nice to absolutely crush the Bucs and get our confidence back it isn't a requirement for the playoffs.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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This is where you come off delusional, or scorned, or simply...a Garrett "hater"(I hate using that word, btw). If you don't think he's the head coach of the future, fine...but the flaw in your logic is allowing Rob Ryan the time to grow, and not JG. They went heavy on offense(not as heavy as they should've) because there were NEEDS there...The OL was godawful(and the interior still is), our RB's were fragile and mediocre, and our WR depth was seriously lacking(up until L.Robinson was signed). These were absolutely necessary...and you've seen what can be accomplished with decent blocking and a run game(Example: the games Demarco broke loose). The team has numerous weaknesses....moreso on defense, but there's enough on the offense/OL that we're not able to see JG's true vision of the offense. Yet and still it's a top 10 offense every year.

Are there better HC's in the game right now than JG? hands down...yes. I just think his supporters are able to see(or hope) the glimpses of him being a great coach, whereas you've completely dismissed him and pointed out every mistake. Yet when posters' do the same with Rob Ryan, it's..."Well the talent isn't there, he didn't have an offseason, Jerry through him a few bones".

On the flipside, you jokingly...or seriously have alluded to getting rid of Romo and Garrett, as they're the causes for these losses....You don't understand how that's "Delusional"? How one side of the ball gets ALL of the blame, despite the other side of the ball continuously failing? Very one sided...that's all everyone is saying.
The point he's making is that Garrett has been in control of the offense since 2007 and has LOADED up that side of the ball with playmakers. Yet we are still making bonehead mistakes on that side of the ball and whether you want to realize it or not, the offense has cost us more losses than the defense. Jets, Lions, Pats, Cardinals were all lost by inept play of the offense, a unit that has for the most part been intact and watched over by Garrett for the past 5 seasons.

On the flip side Rob, the guy who everyone seems to be pointing the finger at now, came into a situation with the 31st ranked defense of a year ago and was given Abe Elam and Kenyon Coleman to help fix it. Rob didn't complain, he just simply said "we're good" and has had this defense playing out of their minds for most of the season. They've been coming up with key stops in the 4th quarter, whether the offense cashed in off those stops should be the real story in question here. You know, that LOADED offense that we invested all our resources in.

It's comparing apples to oranges, we've made no conscience effort to improve upon that horrid defense. Our big aquisitions in the past 3 or so years have been Brooking, Sensabaugh, Elam, Coleman, and Frank Walker... are you kidding me? And we want to blame the coordinator who just came in with no off-season?

Give me a break man, Rob Ryan should be the last person fans want to see gone.
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Old 12-13-2011, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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The point he's making is that Garrett has been in control of the offense since 2007 and has LOADED up that side of the ball with playmakers. Yet we are still making bonehead mistakes on that side of the ball and whether you want to realize it or not, the offense has cost us more losses than the defense. Jets, Lions, Pats, Cardinals were all lost by inept play of the offense, a unit that has for the most part been intact and watched over by Garrett for the past 5 seasons.
Except he wasn't the head coach....until a year ago. My point is that we're allowing Rob Ryan the benefit of doubt. Wade was in charge, period. I understand the offensive game plans and whatnot were JG's, but...Wade was the head coach, and had considerably more say in the ultimate roster decisions than JG....Or are we going to pin all of the roster moves since '07 on JG? The last 4 of 6 first round draft picks went defense...

We've gone defense heavy for YEARS.

Victor Butler, Jason Williams, Brandon Williams, Deangelo Smith, Micheal Hamlin, Spencer, Barbie Carpe, Pat Watkins...etc..etc..etc.
And yea, i'm sure JG had some say in the offensive picks, but somehow you guys are pinning the Wade regimen on JG, even though he's been HC for one draft.

There's one constant in all this...and that's Jerry Jones...but that's another issue completely.

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On the flip side Rob, the guy who everyone seems to be pointing the finger at now, came into a situation with the 31st ranked defense of a year ago and was given Abe Elam and Kenyon Coleman to help fix it. Rob didn't complain, he just simply said "we're good" and has had this defense playing out of their minds for most of the season. They've been coming up with key stops in the 4th quarter, whether the offense cashed in off those stops should be the real story in question here. You know, that LOADED offense that we invested all our resources in.

Give me a break man, Rob Ryan should be the last person fans want to see gone.
Again....You've got to read the thread. I don't think ANYONE is saying they want Rob Ryan gone, he's got a big mouth, he's probably chewed off a lot more than he can chew...but ultimately, fans are excited about what he's bringing. The exaggerations are huge on both sides after a loss....That's apparent and not unexpected. The problem with D-Unit that I and others are noticing is that when something bad happens or the Boys lose...it's 100% on JG and Romo...the defense has NO FAULT...Rob's completely absolved. I think most posters here are saying that JG has his warts, Romo has played out of his mind, but has had his hand in some losses....AND the defense has had a hand in a few losses...Those 3 things combined make for a average to bad football team.

For the most part, level headed posters acknowledge blame goes all around...D-Unit acknowledges blame goes to the offense and JG....

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:44 AM    (permalink
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Right...We'll agree on Wade, he's one of the best DC's in the game...just not a HC.



Houston did a hell of a job with their defense...but they had the luxury to do that. They've got one of the best lines in football, the best RB(as of last year, statistically)....One of the top 5 WR's. There were really no needs for them offensively. Will you agree with that?

Why would I need to factor that into the argument at all? It's besides the point. You wanted to emphasize the point that Wade was doing a superior job to Rob in the same time frame, but you totally failed to realize how much help Wade got compared to Rob. The comparison is staggering. It doesn't matter to me that Houston had the luxury to address defense. Your point was that he was doing a better job. My point is that their turn around has a lot more to do with their personnel upgrades.

This is where you come off delusional, or scorned, or simply...a Garrett "hater"(I hate using that word, btw). If you don't think he's the head coach of the future, fine...but the flaw in your logic is allowing Rob Ryan the time to grow, and not JG. They went heavy on offense(not as heavy as they should've) because there were NEEDS there...The OL was godawful(and the interior still is), our RB's were fragile and mediocre, and our WR depth was seriously lacking(up until L.Robinson was signed). These were absolutely necessary...and you've seen what can be accomplished with decent blocking and a run game(Example: the games Demarco broke loose). The team has numerous weaknesses....moreso on defense, but there's enough on the offense/OL that we're not able to see JG's true vision of the offense. Yet and still it's a top 10 offense every year. He's been a HC for a single season, one draft...Wade was responsible for bringing in quite a few defensive players...most of them busts or average at best. Give JG the same opportunity...

Actually, I do think Garrett is the HC of the future. I think he's too rooted in with Jerry. They probably share the same bed at night. It's going to take years of failure before the plug is finally pulled on Garrett. Nevertheless, I'm not gonna sit here and stay silent about his faults and misgivings just because I don't see him getting the axe. I'm not going to withhold thoughts on who would be better. The way I see it, Rob will go on to get a HC job somewhere down the line while we still have Garrett here... and it won't surprise me one bit if Rob ends up doing a superior job wherever he goes... and when he does, there will be many folks in Dallas Cowboy forums around the world saying, "How did we let him go?" Sean Payton 2.0

As for Garrett not yet having a chance... I can't go there man. He's been here in 2007. The offense still makes the same mistakes, as I noted earlier. I know Wade was the HC, but you know just as well as anyone that Wade was a puppet HC. So much so, that Garrett had full control of the offense and Jerry made Wade DC instead of having another one hired. There's no way that I'm gonna leave Garrett's hands clean of the personnel decisions made on offense since 2007. His fingerprints are all over it.


Are there better HC's in the game right now than JG? hands down...yes. I just think his supporters are able to see(or hope) the glimpses of him being a great coach, whereas you've completely dismissed him and pointed out every mistake. Yet when posters' do the same with Rob Ryan, it's..."Well the talent isn't there, he didn't have an offseason, Jerry through him a few bones".

On the flipside, you jokingly...or seriously have alluded to getting rid of Romo and Garrett, as they're the causes for these losses....You don't understand how that's "Delusional"? How one side of the ball gets ALL of the blame, despite the other side of the ball continuously failing? Very one sided...that's all everyone is saying.

No, no, no, no, no. Of course there is plenty of blame besides Garrett and Romo. It's the defense too. I'm not overlooking that for one second. The defense SUCKS. That's the whole BURN! The separation is that, I'm not blaming the DC for their deficiencies. Not yet at least. If the same thing is happening 4 years down the line then he'd draw the same ire that I have for Garrett. Is that clear yet?
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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Pretty much what Fresh said along with adding the caveat that our expectations for this year went from reasonable to insane due to overachieving. You can tell we have a lot of the pieces but until we fix our interior line and add some talent on defense we are going to have to cope with losing some close ones.

Statistically on games decided by less than 7 you will win 50% of the time. Garrett since he took over coaching has had 14 games decided by <7 ... guess his record? 7-7.

If we beat the Eagles and then beat the Giants we're in. While it would be nice to absolutely crush the Bucs and get our confidence back it isn't a requirement for the playoffs.
I still think we can surpass our expectations. It was a shot in the dark whether we'd make the playoffs. I didn't think we could when the season began and I saw what little we did in FA.

But there have been some nice surprises this year. Murray, Robinson, Hatcher, Lee, Elam, Bailey, and Rob Ryan.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:51 AM    (permalink
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The point he's making is that Garrett has been in control of the offense since 2007 and has LOADED up that side of the ball with playmakers. Yet we are still making bonehead mistakes on that side of the ball and whether you want to realize it or not, the offense has cost us more losses than the defense. Jets, Lions, Pats, Cardinals were all lost by inept play of the offense, a unit that has for the most part been intact and watched over by Garrett for the past 5 seasons.

On the flip side Rob, the guy who everyone seems to be pointing the finger at now, came into a situation with the 31st ranked defense of a year ago and was given Abe Elam and Kenyon Coleman to help fix it. Rob didn't complain, he just simply said "we're good" and has had this defense playing out of their minds for most of the season. They've been coming up with key stops in the 4th quarter, whether the offense cashed in off those stops should be the real story in question here. You know, that LOADED offense that we invested all our resources in.

It's comparing apples to oranges, we've made no conscience effort to improve upon that horrid defense. Our big aquisitions in the past 3 or so years have been Brooking, Sensabaugh, Elam, Coleman, and Frank Walker... are you kidding me? And we want to blame the coordinator who just came in with no off-season?

Give me a break man, Rob Ryan should be the last person fans want to see gone.
I'm so happy you see it the same way I do. Great follow up post.





Side note: These debates are healthy for the forum. Makes for a lot of fun and you'll see down the line... it'll create some fun look back memories. So please a message to all... let's be passionate posters, but let's not let this get personal. Peace.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:02 AM    (permalink
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I'm so happy you see it the same way I do. Great follow up post.





Side note: These debates are healthy for the forum. Makes for a lot of fun and you'll see down the line... it'll create some fun look back memories. So please a message to all... let's be passionate posters, but let's not let this get personal. Peace.
Agreed. And please don't mistake my ire for Rob over 2 performances as thinking he should be run out of town or that I'd prefer to have fat-so back. Rob's schemes have been beautiful in all but two games in my honest opinion. The Eagles game was an obvious mistake that he owned immediately and I just heavily questioned sending the house versus Eli. He definitely has the capablity (provided we give him talent) to be an aggressive attacking defense that can turn games.

-_- Unfortunately he are going to have to ask Romo to be perfect rather than just great in order to do any damage late this year.

If we can hit on interior line, another dominating edge rusher, and a future CB in the draft/FA we could do some serious damage next year.


BtB just did a nice grade report on the game using PFF. We had an insane 25 pressures on Eli we just didn't finish the job. They remarked on how well the Giants gameplanned for the Cowboys rush.

Eli's passer rating when blitzed? 117.5. How about when we dropped off and didn't bring the heat? 70.9.

-_-

On a much more positive note. We swung for the fences with Tyron Smith and he is golden. Tyron Smith is now the second highest graded tackle in the league. Kowalski scored a +0.6 in pass blocking and +0.2 in run blocking so overall a positive day. The secondary scored poorly along with the entire defense aside from a notable few (Sean Lee is also a beast) but Sensy came out as the only positive player in the secondary.

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Old 12-14-2011, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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For as much heat you guys are getting for losing that game, you gotta realize that the division is still yours to lose.

Win out and you win the division. The Cowboys still control their own destiny. In fact, this Tampa game is meaningless.

You just gotta beat Philly and us and youre in. And quite honestly, I think it's very doable. Asking the Giants to beat the Cowboys twice is very difficult. Especially since you guys always play better at Giants stadium. For some reason, we always win at Dallas.

And Philly should be a W. So it's really going to take a choke job of sorts for you guys not to win the division.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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I as listening to Galloway the other day and he said an NFL person told him that Ryan's defensive scheme is as unsound as any scheme in the league. It's 100% predicated on getting pressure on the QB. If no pressure is applied, like Sunday night, it results in 500 yards of offense.

He would not name this person and I have no idea if this person has any credibility, but I did find it interesting that some in the NFL hold this belief.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:13 AM    (permalink
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Now, having said that, I do think it comes down to execution being the majority of the issue.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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I as listening to Galloway the other day and he said an NFL person told him that Ryan's defensive scheme is as unsound as any scheme in the league. It's 100% predicated on getting pressure on the QB. If no pressure is applied, like Sunday night, it results in 500 yards of offense.

He would not name this person and I have no idea if this person has any credibility, but I did find it interesting that some in the NFL hold this belief.
That's not really news at all. The same can be said about Rex's scheme, and Wade's scheme.

They all design their defenses around attacking pass protections, with simple man coverages behind that. So it's heavily reliant on good press man corners in coverage.

I prefer that. Players make plays at the end of the day. All this implies is the obvious, that you guys need help in the secondary to execute the scheme.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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I still think we can surpass our expectations. It was a shot in the dark whether we'd make the playoffs. I didn't think we could when the season began and I saw what little we did in FA.

But there have been some nice surprises this year. Murray, Robinson, Hatcher, Lee, Elam, Bailey, and Rob Ryan.
With the schedule we had, we should make the playoffs.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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That's not really news at all. The same can be said about Rex's scheme, and Wade's scheme.

They all design their defenses around attacking pass protections, with simple man coverages behind that. So it's heavily reliant on good press man corners in coverage.

I prefer that. Players make plays at the end of the day. All this implies is the obvious, that you guys need help in the secondary to execute the scheme.
I agree that the players have to execute. However, as the DC, you need to have a feel for what your guys are doing well at any given time. Sometimes the best blitz is when it's not called when you want to. Especially given that as the game went along, it was pretty clear that your pressure was not getting home.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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That's not really news at all. The same can be said about Rex's scheme, and Wade's scheme.

They all design their defenses around attacking pass protections, with simple man coverages behind that. So it's heavily reliant on good press man corners in coverage.

I prefer that. Players make plays at the end of the day. All this implies is the obvious, that you guys need help in the secondary to execute the scheme.
I am of the belief the Buddy Ryan 46 is obsolete because of the rules regarding CB play.

If you could give CB 10 yards to mug/press then it would work once again. But they call just about anything once it is off the LOS (even under 5 yards) that I just don't see it working.

To me the best system designs for today's NFL is two monster tackles in a 4-3 with a great run stopping MLB. Everybody else needs to run like the wind and be able to play passing lanes. OLB 225, Safeties 210, CB 200.

Mix up coverages and safety play as needed but lots and lots of speed. Almost like haveing 3 Safeties and 3 CB on the field all the time.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:41 AM    (permalink
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I am of the belief the Buddy Ryan 46 is obsolete because of the rules regarding CB play.

If you could give CB 10 yards to mug/press then it would work once again. But they call just about anything once it is off the LOS (even under 5 yards) that I just don't see it working.

To me the best system designs for today's NFL is two monster tackles in a 4-3 with a great run stopping MLB. Everybody else needs to run like the wind and be able to play passing lanes. OLB 225, Safeties 210, CB 200.

Mix up coverages and safety play as needed but lots and lots of speed. Almost like haveing 3 Safeties and 3 CB on the field all the time.
Interesting take.
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Old 12-14-2011, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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I agree that the players have to execute. However, as the DC, you need to have a feel for what your guys are doing well at any given time. Sometimes the best blitz is when it's not called when you want to. Especially given that as the game went along, it was pretty clear that your pressure was not getting home.
It was though. The pressure was there all night. Eli threw on the run or off his back foot the entire night. And he threw into some really tight windows. Some of his throws Sunday night were money.

It's just one of those things, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Having watched the Giants rush 3 all season, I rather lose by the blitz than lose passively. That's just how I look at it.

I think his strategy will work better in Giants stadium in December. Those throws wouldn't be as money when the wind is blowing.

I would keep bringing the heat. Bc if you don't, we can just max protect and pick apart your secondary. Look at what is happening to the Giants. We never blitz and we're getting killed, and we have more talent in the secondary than the Cowboys do.

So it's almost like pick your poison. I rather die blitzing than die playing passive.
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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I am of the belief the Buddy Ryan 46 is obsolete because of the rules regarding CB play.

If you could give CB 10 yards to mug/press then it would work once again. But they call just about anything once it is off the LOS (even under 5 yards) that I just don't see it working.

To me the best system designs for today's NFL is two monster tackles in a 4-3 with a great run stopping MLB. Everybody else needs to run like the wind and be able to play passing lanes. OLB 225, Safeties 210, CB 200.

Mix up coverages and safety play as needed but lots and lots of speed. Almost like haveing 3 Safeties and 3 CB on the field all the time.
What successful NFL defense is run like this? Curious to know who to mimick.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Kind of off topic but I still can't figure out why we never drafted a true NT, that position is crucial in building a competent 3-4 defense. It's just another thing that pisses me off about our FO, they thought they outsmarted everyone and were changing the mold of the 3-4 defense with Ratliff.

We can talk about upgrading the secondary and upgrading the pass rush opposite Ware, but until we get that anchor in the middle this defense will be ass backwards.

EDIT:

This is what collapsing the pocket and being disruptive in the run game is supposed to look like... good god.

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Old 12-14-2011, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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What successful NFL defense is run like this? Curious to know who to mimick.
I'd imagine the Vikings from a few years ago with the Williams wall at it's peak is the best example. You also had Greenway and Henderson behind them.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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We can talk about defensive philophies forever (and believe me, if i wasn't busy today, i'll write up an essay on the 46 right now), but the most important component of any defense is the defensive coordinator, not necessarily the scheme he runs, but how well he runs it.

The basic fundamentals of every defense are simple: tackle well, stop the run, don't blow assignments. If you do those 3 things at a high level, you'll be a good defense regardless of the scheme/alignment with the right coordination.

I think stud DCs in today's NFL are to defenses what quarterbacks are to offenses. Look, as long as you have a stud qb, doesn't matter what scheme you run, your offense will always be at the very least, good enough right?

Even with mediocre talent around that qb, you'll still be good enough offensively.

Great DCs bring that to the table for defense. You can have all the talent in the world, if your DC is trash, so is your defense. See the Giants under every coordinator we had outside of Spagnuolo as an example.

Contrarily, a great DC typically never has a horrible defensive unit, regardless of how mediocre his talent is. Has Rex ever had a horrible defense? LeBeau? Jim Johnson (rip)? Wade Phillips? (outside last year when your team quit on him) Dom Capers?

More often than not, all those guys brought a solid defense on Sunday. And all of them have had plenty of turnover on defense during their teniors. Still put a great product on the field.

That's the most important aspect to defense to me. Look at all the consistently great defenses in the NFL. All of them pretty much have had great coordinators for prolonged periods of time. It's like having a franchise qb.

Don't get me wrong, talent is first and foremost the most important aspect, but without a quality DC running the show, it's like having a high powered offense without a quarterback. It just doesn't work the same.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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This is not good.


http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/cowbo...rrett-needs-oc

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IRVING, Texas – You can make an argument that Jason Garrett would be a better head coach if he hired an offensive coordinator.

Just don’t expect to convince Jerry Jones of it.

“I’m actually humored when I hear that he might be overloaded mentally being the coordinator as well as the head coach,” Jones said during a SportsCenter sit-down interview with Hannah Storm. “That’s humorous. His biggest asset is his mental capacity and his ability to digest information and then act on it.

Never mind that Garrett’s late-game clock-management gaffes have provided plenty of laughs the last two weeks.

Tony Sparano, who was a tremendous asset to Garrett in his most successful season as an offensive coordinator, is available now that he’s been fired as the Dolphins’ head coach. Norv Turner, the brains behind the offense that put Super Bowl rings on Garrett’s fingers as a backup quarterback, is expected to be available after the Chargers fire him following the season.

But the Cowboys won’t consider hiring either supremely qualified candidate as an offensive coordinator. Garrett doesn’t believe it’s necessary, and his boss considers the thought laughable.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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What successful NFL defense is run like this? Curious to know who to mimick.
Not really close to what that was, but one my favorite defenses the past 10 years was the one the Jags had years ago. With two bonafide monsters in Henderson and Stroud in the middle with Mike Peterson behind them roaming around picking up the pieces and a physical CB in Rashean Mathis who was a ballhawk. But that's the closest thing that came to mind when I read whatever scheme that was.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Not good at all...

More struggles in the redzone, more struggles with questionable playcalling, and more struggles in game clock management....

All the same things we've seen since 2007 and still no correction in 2011-12.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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I think even with all these events passing, I think in the end you guys still make the playoffs. Let me put it this way, I'd be very surprised if we made it.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:05 PM    (permalink
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Lots of roster moves already this week.

Murray to IR - Signed Sammy Morris
Kitna to IR - Signed Dwayne Harris from PS - Added Chris Griesen to PS.

Josh Brent should return to practicing this week.

MAJOR potential injury to Jenkins as his shoulder causes not only severe pain when it pops out but he cannot raise his arm above his head currently.

-_- He's our best press corner and now he can't use one of his arms above his head.
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