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Old 01-09-2012, 03:05 PM    (permalink
leroyisgod
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DL are more valuable in the 4-3 than in the 3-4. So it's not surprising at all. When we first transitioned to the 3-4, it was not nearly as popular as it has become. So comparing the way they used their resources to the way we used ours is an unbalanced argument. It used to be that 3-4 DL were tweeners that fell in the draft, or were cheaper to get. ie. Jay Ratliff, Chris Canty, Kenyon Coleman.

They weren't the big named glamour players of the league puffed up by fancy stats. Those are what 4-3 DL were... stat hogs... but 3-4 guys went under the radar because they were the unsung heros who could have a 1.5 sack season and still been very successful at doing their job right. So in terms of drafting, 4-3 teams always invested more highly into DL than 3-4 teams did.

But nowdays, there are more and more 3-4 based defenses and now teams and more aggressively pursuing these guys. They have gotten extreme attention and teams have ruined the fun of being a 3-4 team. Now everybody seems to be in the act and trying to scoop up these tweeners or forcefully fit them into their schemes.

When the Chiefs took Tyson Jackson that became the poster child for the new age way teams look at 3-4 DL. It completely sucks for us now, but that's the way it is.

So back to the NYG vs DAL philosophy of using premium picks on DL... it's just a mistake to compare the two teams in that regard. History showed that 3-4 DL could be had later in the draft, and that's part of why we moved in that direction. Things have since changed but to compare historical philosophy differences is painting a flawed picture.
D hit this one on the head. It's not a fair comparison and isn't an apples to apples comparison. If you want to compare us up against Green Bay, Pittsburgh, etc then go ahead. It's just not the same.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Our defensive front 7 is ok. It could use some help, but the thing that makes Rob Ryan's defense go is the exotic schemes he uses when he calls upon DBs to blitz. There is no one in our secondary that is really capable of it. They are way too finesse or brittle in nature. We need DBs that can lay the wood.

I've mocked him several times, but every time I watch him play Brandon Boykin screams to me of a player that would fit what Rob wants to do. Boykin may not be the biggest guy, but he's not afraid to mix it up and lay the wood. He's an elite caliber nickel corner and I would love to have him play for us.



Another guy is Greg Reid. He may not have a long career because he sacrifices his body so much to lay big hits, but he's also mutlidimensional like Boykin. I just question if Garrett wants a guy with a troubled off field history.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Our defensive front 7 is ok. It could use some help, but the thing that makes Rob Ryan's defense go is the exotic schemes he uses when he calls upon DBs to blitz. There is no one in our secondary that is really capable of it. They are way too finesse or brittle in nature. We need DBs that can lay the wood.

I've mocked him several times, but every time I watch him play Brandon Boykin screams to me of a player that would fit what Rob wants to do. Boykin may not be the biggest guy, but he's not afraid to mix it up and lay the wood. He's an elite caliber nickel corner and I would love to have him play for us.



Another guy is Greg Reid. He may not have a long career because he sacrifices his body so much to lay big hits, but he's also mutlidimensional like Boykin. I just question if Garrett wants a guy with a troubled off field history.
Would Roy Williams have fit into his scheme well?
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Would Roy Williams have fit into his scheme well?
Maybe in 2005. If Barry Church can find a spot on this roster...
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Old 01-09-2012, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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Reports are that Campo got the axe. Thank God, at least we are finally making some changes. Our defense has been the same since since Wade got here, and has allowed offenses like the Giants and QB's like Eli to know what's coming, and surgically pick us apart without problem.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Bout time we did something. Accompany this move with replacements for Bradie, Brooking, Elam, Newman, Ball, etc. and our defense has to be better by default, let alone good replacements.

EDIT: As for the CB I want in free agency, it's really Terrell Thomas or bust to me. Finnegan and Grimes, while both solid players and obviously are better than Newman, they are both relatively undersized, overrated, and both kind of knuckleheads (Finnegan way more than Grimes.) With the market value nowadays, both players will be way more expensive than they are worth. I'm not giving a player of either of their quality 6-8 million a year, and on this market that's what they will get. Not worth it at all. Thomas is the best of the bunch in my opinion because he is just a good, solid starter. He won't be that expensive because he wasn't Darelle Revis to begin with and he missed the season with a torn ACL. It also kills two birds with one stone because it instantly makes a secondary a lot better, and hurts the Giants. Jerry needs to find out whatever the Giants are offering, and give him just that bit more to make him come here. We have plenty of cap room, there really is no excuse.

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Old 01-09-2012, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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Not really picky on FA names. I always feel like no matter who I mention, it's a shot in the dark anyways. So I get depressed when we look in another direction. Just tired to seeing the guys I hate get resigned for way too much money and no namers come through FA. When it comes down to who they're rumored to be looking at, at that point I'll share an opinion. Needless to say, my confidence in the Dallas operation is shot.
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Old 01-09-2012, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Not really picky on FA names. I always feel like no matter who I mention, it's a shot in the dark anyways. So I get depressed when we look in another direction. Just tired to seeing the guys I hate get resigned for way too much money and no namers come through FA. When it comes down to who they're rumored to be looking at, at that point I'll share an opinion. Needless to say, my confidence in the Dallas operation is shot.
I agree to some extent, but I think things are getting better. I think Garrett is a smart guy with a solid plan. Getting rid of over priced veterans and coaches like Campo is a start.

Not to mention, our front office handled the cap situation beautifully with the ability of only this year to have the free money carry over into next years cap, so we cut all of those guys without even needing to eat the dead money. Have to tip your had the Jerry and Co. there.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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I think the team realized after 2010 that they were screwed, had all these overpriced vets and underachievers, and worse yet, they were f'ed for cap space. So they did a good job understanding the new rules and allowing them to spend some money this year. Jerrah had sucked in this role before, so there's no reason to beleive he'll be any better this go round. But I do think after listening to the Hitges thing that they did a good job making good out of bad.
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:40 PM    (permalink
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Our defensive front 7 is ok. It could use some help, but the thing that makes Rob Ryan's defense go is the exotic schemes he uses when he calls upon DBs to blitz. There is no one in our secondary that is really capable of it. They are way too finesse or brittle in nature. We need DBs that can lay the wood.

I've mocked him several times, but every time I watch him play Brandon Boykin screams to me of a player that would fit what Rob wants to do. Boykin may not be the biggest guy, but he's not afraid to mix it up and lay the wood. He's an elite caliber nickel corner and I would love to have him play for us.



Another guy is Greg Reid. He may not have a long career because he sacrifices his body so much to lay big hits, but he's also mutlidimensional like Boykin. I just question if Garrett wants a guy with a troubled off field history.

I don't see our front 7 being adequate at all, at least in generating consistant pressure. I think we need an upgrade in the Spencer role and if James and Brooking never see the field again, I'd be fine w/ that.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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A few years ago, one of Parcells' picks was telling a non-Parcells pick how the coach would make them run a sprint to the fence at training camp as punishment if things weren't going well. The non-Parcells pick said he never would have let a coach do that to him.

That tough-talking player is no longer a Cowboy, but it spoke to the difference in mentality that seeped into the locker room not long after Parcells left.

"Most of them are pretty talented," Parcells said of the players who remain. "You don't play for that length of time in the league without being talented. But I'd like to think that maybe I helped them get started and put a little foundation in a few of them that maybe helped them go forward. That's the only thing you can hope for. I'm not saying I did, but I'm just hopeful."
That right there is your problem boys and girls. And this has nothing to do with Parcells. This is about the attitude of said player. If Coach tells you to do a lap. You do a lap. Whether it's Parcells, Chubby Wade, Jason Landry or Jerry Jones himself. When your boss says Jump. You don't question whether it should be done. Your only question should ever be "how high sir?"
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:42 AM    (permalink
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I think the team realized after 2010 that they were screwed, had all these overpriced vets and underachievers, and worse yet, they were f'ed for cap space. So they did a good job understanding the new rules and allowing them to spend some money this year. Jerrah had sucked in this role before, so there's no reason to beleive he'll be any better this go round. But I do think after listening to the Hitges thing that they did a good job making good out of bad.
Somebody summarize the Norm Hinges thing to me. I didn't bother with the link.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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I don't see our front 7 being adequate at all, at least in generating consistant pressure. I think we need an upgrade in the Spencer role and if James and Brooking never see the field again, I'd be fine w/ that.
I think with an improved secondary, that our guys up front have more success. Are they the best? No. Is there mediocre players there? Of course. But we don't even have mediocre players in the secondary. They just flat out suck. Every single one of them. Newman is a joke. Jenkins is soft as Charmin. Scandrick is a smart player but lacks in the talent department. Sensy and Elam are the definitions of a JAG. We need a rehaul, but it ain't happening. Scandrick and Sensy just got extensions. Elam will probably be resigned and Jenkins is looking at an extension himself. I doubt we let him go. We have 1 starting spot to upgrade... Newman's. But I wish we were upgrading both safety spots and our nickel CB too.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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I think it's premature to assume that Elam gets resigned and that Jenkins gets an extension. Let's see what happens in FA and the draft first.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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Somebody summarize the Norm Hinges thing to me. I didn't bother with the link.
Basically, the Cowboys couldn't say it, but basically we took it in the shorts this year to improve our cap situation going forward. And our cap moving forward actually looks really good. We should have somewhere north of $20 million and that does not include some cuts that will most likely happen. And once all the dead money is gone after next year, our cap should be in very very good shape.

I think we've all seen that you can get by in this league without great players in the secondary. But what you must have is guys that get pressure. I think what we need to do is go ahead and pay the money for Mario. I know he's not a prototypical 3-4 OLB, but the guy is a beast rushing the passer. He and Ware would be formidable. I know it's going to cost big money, but I think it could be back loaded to help with the cap. Mathis could be an option, as well.

Here's the thing, I think we need to get back to being aggressive. Let's suck it up and go out and get players that make an impact.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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^^^Yep


Bryan Broadus(for those who don't know..google him).....apparently tweeted the Cowboys are looking to move(or discussing) Ratliff to DE next season.
That's HUGE news...and what we do in FA/Draft regarding the NT position will be very telling. Going after a true NT in FA, finding a pass rusher and working on the secondary could change the defense literally overnight.

We're seeing changes fellas....from the top down, let's hope that continues.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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^^^Yep


Bryan Broadus(for those who don't know..google him).....apparently tweeted the Cowboys are looking to move(or discussing) Ratliff to DE next season.
That's HUGE news...and what we do in FA/Draft regarding the NT position will be very telling. Going after a true NT in FA, finding a pass rusher and working on the secondary could change the defense literally overnight.

We're seeing changes fellas....from the top down, let's hope that continues.
A. Franklin would be a good signing for that NT spot. He went to NO on a one year deal and I think is not playing his natural position in that defense.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Also, Garay or Pouha would fit the bill nicely.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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^^^Yep


Bryan Broadus(for those who don't know..google him).....apparently tweeted the Cowboys are looking to move(or discussing) Ratliff to DE next season.
That's HUGE news...and what we do in FA/Draft regarding the NT position will be very telling. Going after a true NT in FA, finding a pass rusher and working on the secondary could change the defense literally overnight.

We're seeing changes fellas....from the top down, let's hope that continues.
That is great news. I just went and found the tweet, and it also said expect more of lissemore at NT. I hope that's not a permanent switch. Lissemore is a beast, but enough of the undersized dudes at NT. We are moving ratliff for a reason... He's been playing great at DE in limited action, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

He also talked about DeCastro a good amount... hopefully that means it's circulating around the front office.

Campo fired, Ratliff possible switch to DE, DeCastro buzz... I'm liking the off-season so far!
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I like Lisseomore as a rotation guy, but he's not a difference maker.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Broaddus actually just tweeted back at me. He said they need to way the option of the 2nd best CB (kirkpatrick) vs the #1 OG in DeCastro. Hopefully they are at least thinking about DeCastro. Not bad.
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Old 01-10-2012, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Broaddus actually just tweeted back at me. He said they need to way the option of the 2nd best CB (kirkpatrick) vs the #1 OG in DeCastro. Hopefully they are at least thinking about DeCastro. Not bad.
I know some people on here aren't high on Kirkpatrick because they seem him more as a S in the NFL and some character concerns. However, D-Unit I think maybe onto something when talking about the type of player we need in the secondary. We need guys that can blitz and aren't necessarily finesse players. Kirkpatrick could be one of those guys that comes in and starts at CB for a few years and then moves to safety.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Basically, the Cowboys couldn't say it, but basically we took it in the shorts this year to improve our cap situation going forward. And our cap moving forward actually looks really good. We should have somewhere north of $20 million and that does not include some cuts that will most likely happen. And once all the dead money is gone after next year, our cap should be in very very good shape.

I think we've all seen that you can get by in this league without great players in the secondary. But what you must have is guys that get pressure. I think what we need to do is go ahead and pay the money for Mario. I know he's not a prototypical 3-4 OLB, but the guy is a beast rushing the passer. He and Ware would be formidable. I know it's going to cost big money, but I think it could be back loaded to help with the cap. Mathis could be an option, as well.

Here's the thing, I think we need to get back to being aggressive. Let's suck it up and go out and get players that make an impact.
I just can't subscribe to the idea that you can get by in this league without good secondary play. I can't imagine the nightmare we would've seen on defense if we faced Green Bay or New Orleans. Had we had them on our schedule I think the need would've seemed MUCH MORE obvious.

Generating pass rush is a need that I can't ignore. Spencer has been a flop and his run stopping isn't all that some Cowboys fans like to crack it up to be.

But that said, I still can't say teams can get by without great players in their secondary. Let's look at the Giants who everyone can acknowledge as a team with good pass rush. Well has anyone noticed that they have a secondary that has 4 1st rounders (Kenny Phillips, Antrel Rolle, Aaron Ross, Prince Amukamara) and Corey Webster and Terrell Thomas... 2 excellent finds who outplay the value of most 1st round CBs.

In a league dominated by passing offenses (or Tim Tebow...lol), having both a pass rush AND strong coverage is necessary. One cannot operate at full capacity without the other's help. They go hand in hand. In our case, our secondary talent is several levels below the talent we have in the front 7.

I'm encouraged by the rumor that Ratliff is moving to DE because we've been clamoring for that for years now. Paired with the emergence of Hatcher, the solid play of Coleman and adequate depth in Lissemore and Spears... I think DE gets resolved on it's own, just by that move alone.

In the draft it should simply boil down to which need we can fill with the BPA with an eye on the depth of the draft at that position.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you guys should look at exclusively 3-4 talent. I've been saying it for 2 years now, I think the Cowboys should transition to a 4-3 defense.

RE: Ware
UT: Ratliff - his best natural position
NT: Spears - his best natural position
LE: Sign or draft someone

WILL: Carter
MIKE: Lee
SAM: draft someone/Ware on joker packages

Why can't it work? I think it's a better fit for your talent.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I honestly wouldn't mind going back to the 4-3. Not sure how a change in philosophy would impact our team, but i'd be down. We could even re-sign Spencer and keep him at LE where he would be a very solid to above average player. Pipe dream i know, it'll never happen, but it would be nice.
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Old 01-10-2012, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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I just can't subscribe to the idea that you can get by in this league without good secondary play.
D, that's not what I said. I didn't say they didn't have to be good. I said they didn't have to be great.



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But that said, I still can't say teams can get by without great players in their secondary. Let's look at the Giants who everyone can acknowledge as a team with good pass rush. Well has anyone noticed that they have a secondary that has 4 1st rounders (Kenny Phillips, Antrel Rolle, Aaron Ross, Prince Amukamara) and Corey Webster and Terrell Thomas... 2 excellent finds who outplay the value of most 1st round CBs.
The Giants secondary is not that great. TT is good, but has missed the whole season. Ross is terrible. Prince may be fine, but he's a rookie.


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In the draft it should simply boil down to which need we can fill with the BPA with an eye on the depth of the draft at that position.
Agree.

Just want to make sure you don't reframe my argument. I'm not saying we need to ignore the secondary. I'm just saying that if we ignore the pass rush, I don't care who we sign or draft in the secondary; it ain't gonna matter.
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