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Old 05-16-2007, 06:31 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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See the above, he does play up to his athleticism he flat out takes over games, did you happen to see carolina vs cleveland last year? Or his performance against Minnesota?
Did you see him against St. Louis? New Orleans? the Giants? It works both ways. I agree Peppers could be better. He either dominates or dissappears. He needs more consistency.
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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New Orleans? Are you kidding me? Did you watch the first game, he was the reason we won, him and Thomas Davis were lights out.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:03 PM    (permalink
Jughead10
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They play New Orleans twice every year don't they?
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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Did you see him against St. Louis? New Orleans? the Giants? It works both ways. I agree Peppers could be better. He either dominates or dissappears. He needs more consistency.
That's the way with every DE in the league. Especially if you judge "consistency" with raw statistics.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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Agreed, there's just going to be days where every running play is run at a guy like Julius Peppers and then every passing play there'll be two players dedicated to him.

The same thing happens with John Abraham and Freeney.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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That's the way with every DE in the league. Especially if you judge "consistency" with raw statistics.
Peppers dissappears quite a lot for someone who is clearly "the best at his position" and the "best defensive player in the NFL". You know that. He often just doesn't show up. Just about as much as he dominates.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Agreed, there's just going to be days where every running play is run at a guy like Julius Peppers and then every passing play there'll be two players dedicated to him.

The same thing happens with John Abraham and Freeney.
If I'm trying to prove a point I wouldn't compare Peppers to Freeney or Abraham.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Jalapeno Peppers are very spicey. Don't underestimate them.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Peppers dissappears quite a lot for someone who is clearly "the best at his position" and the "best defensive player in the NFL". You know that. He often just doesn't show up. Just about as much as he dominates.
You're looking at this the wrong way.

Statistically yes, he's very up and down. However, that fact imo is testament to his dominance, and hear me out.

When Peppers is shut down, it takes two men to do it. I don't think that's a homeristic statement. Anyone who watches Peppers play will tell you that. If he's receiving so much attention it allows Jenkins, Kemoeatu and Rucker to be more effective.

Not only that, but having him so strongly targeted frees up Thomas Davis immensely, notice that when against St Louis and against New York, when Peppers stats were poor TD had amazing days, with 10 total tackles and some passes defensed. Reason being, the guy wasn't blocked out of plays, he didn't have to fight through traffic, the reason being, Peppers was being stopped by his man, and Davis's man.

Peppers might not always have his name up in lights statistically, but whenever he's locked down, someone else receives no attention at all and lights it up big time.

Against New York Thomas Davis has 7 total tackles 3 of those were TFLs.

Against St Louis Thomas Davis had 10 total tackles and 1.5 sacks for the year his stats were great:

88 Total Tackles, 1.5 sacks and 6 passes defenced, thats good production for a linebacker in his first year at the position, playing on the strong side, where traditionally they receive a lot of attention.

His numbers have far outstripped anyone we've had in that position for every year in John Fox's system. Our SLBs traditionally don't get a lot of tackles, TD had one third more than Brandon short did in any year he was at the strong side for us.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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I just watched the Giants-Panthers game tape. Are you sure you want to say Peppers gets doubled or chipped on "every play"? You may want to take it back because Peppers was close to being doubled or chipped just as much as he was signle teamed by a 2nd string LT and he still did not have much of an impact on the game. I was at that game and I found it ironic to hear what some Panthers fans said about him.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Oh and I forgot to mention....Osi saw more double teams than Strahan did when they were both on the field at the same time on running plays this past season.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:52 PM    (permalink
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I just watched the Giants-Panthers game tape. Are you sure you want to say Peppers gets doubled or chipped on "every play"? You may want to take it back because Peppers was close to being doubled or chipped just as much as he was signle teamed by a 2nd string LT and he still did not have much of an impact on the game. I was at that game and I found it ironic to hear what some Panthers fans said about him.
You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.
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Old 05-16-2007, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.
Strongside isn't always the side of the RT, although we may have had ours out that game. I don't recall, number10 can answer.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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by Michael David Smith

Is Julius Peppers underrated? That might seem like a silly question because everyone who follows football knows that Peppers is a good player, a rare talent who has not only the typical strength of a defensive end but also the speed and athleticism of the power forward he once was. But watching Peppers on every play of the Carolina Panthers’ 23-21 victory over the Baltimore Ravens, my jaw dropped at seeing not just a good or even very good player, but a defensive lineman doing things I didn’t think a defensive lineman could do.

Baltimore’s blocking schemes revolved around controlling Peppers. On each play of the Ravens’ first possession, both right tackle Tony Pashos and running back Jamal Lewis blocked Peppers. All three plays were passes, and on all three Lewis chipped Peppers before running his route because the Ravens figured that Pashos couldn’t keep Peppers off quarterback Steve McNair without Lewis’s help. Peppers didn’t do anything extraordinary on that possession, but just seeing the way Baltimore opened the game showed how much its game plan focused on Peppers.

On the second possession, Baltimore still doubled Peppers, with little success. On the first play of the series both Pashos and right guard Keydrick Vincent blocked Peppers. On the second play, Vincent held Peppers, but it wasn’t called. On the third play, Peppers bull-rushed Vincent, collapsing the pocket and forcing McNair into a bad throw, which strong safety Colin Branch intercepted. At this point, the Panthers’ defense had been on the field for six plays. Peppers had been doubled four times and held once, and on the one play he was neither, he forced a turnover.

Holding was Baltimore’s most effective strategy. On a second-and-4 on Baltimore’s fifth possession, Peppers stunted to the inside and Vincent held him. In fact, Vincent held Peppers every time they went one-on-one. Later in the game Pashos started joining Vincent in holding. The officials never called it, though. It was actually a smart tactic. Referee Peter Morelli’s crew was calling the game, and that crew has called by far the fewest holding penalties of any group of officials this year. If the officials aren’t going to call it, the linemen might as well do it. My advice to all offensive linemen: When Morelli works your game, just hold all day.

On the Ravens’ third possession, Carolina’s defense revealed a different wrinkle when Peppers dropped into coverage on first-and-10. Peppers’ presence kept McNair from having an easy checkdown to Lewis or tight end Todd Heap, and that forced McNair to hold onto the ball too long. Linebacker Chris Draft and defensive end Mike Rucker sacked him, knocking him out of the game.

Peppers dropped into coverage a few more times as Carolina zone-blitzed with Draft or other linebackers. On a first-and-10 in the third quarter, Todd Heap went in motion to the right and Peppers dropped back to cover Heap, which would usually be a linebacker’s job. Kyle Boller (who played most of the game in relief of McNair) rolled to his right and threw to Heap, and Peppers tackled him for a nine-yard gain. In general, I don’t like that strategy for the Panthers. Why not have Peppers rush the passer so Boller can’t roll to the right in the first place, rather than having Peppers drop back and therefore giving Boller free rein to find someone open? It’s not that Peppers can’t cover the tight end, it’s just that he’s so great at rushing the passer that having him in coverage seems like a waste. It’s an interesting strategy for an occasional change of pace, but generally if the other team is passing and Peppers isn’t rushing, Carolina isn’t using his talents properly.

After the sack that knocked McNair out of the game, Boller’s first two plays were probably Peppers’ most impressive plays of the day. On second-and-19, Peppers lined up at left end. Boller threw a short pass to Lewis along the sideline on the opposite side of the field, and Peppers pursued Lewis across the field and pushed him out of bounds after a gain of only five yards. Defensive ends just aren’t supposed to run down running backs like that, but Peppers did it. And on the next play, Peppers made the tackle in pursuit on the opposite side of the field again. It was third-and-14 and Peppers rushed to the outside. Pashos blocked him, and running back Musa Smith helped with a chip. Boller rolled out and took off running on the other side of the field, and Peppers ran across the field and tackled him for a gain of only six yards.

That pursuit is what separates Peppers from other defensive ends. On third-and-15 on Baltimore’s fourth possession, the Ravens ran a draw to Smith. Peppers started the play on an outside rush. On that type of play, the offense doesn’t worry about the defensive end — even the best defensive ends can’t be expected to rush to the outside and then tackle a running back on a draw up the middle. But when Peppers recognized the draw, he reversed course, drilled Smith and forced a fumble. Peppers isn’t like other defensive ends.

On a first-and-10 later, Mike Anderson took a handoff off the right tackle, running away from Peppers. But when the right side of the Panthers’ defense bottled up Anderson, it was Peppers, pursuing the play from the backside, who tackled Anderson for a loss of two.

While I’m praising Peppers I should acknowledge the obvious, which is that he doesn’t make every play. On a third-and-9 with Boller in the shotgun, Peppers tried to rush to the outside, and Pashos did a nice job allowing him to rush upfield but not collapse the pocket. Boller had time to pick up the first down while Peppers essentially took himself out of the play. But those plays were the exception, and Peppers’ pressure masked some bad coverage from Carolina’s secondary. On a third-and-6 on Baltimore’s sixth possession, Heap beat Carolina defensive back James Anderson and was open deep, but Peppers’ pressure forced Boller to throw the ball without getting completely set, causing an incompletion on what could have been a 40-yard gain. On one first-and-10 in the third quarter, Lewis was left to block Peppers one-on-one. That was a mismatch. Boller rolled to the outside, Peppers got past Lewis and got in Boller’s face, and Boller had to throw the ball away to avoid a sack.

Sacks are the main way defensive linemen get attention, but I haven’t even mentioned Peppers’ two sacks Sunday. One was a first-and-10, when Peppers rushed straight ahead into Pashos, knocked him to the ground, and sacked Boller for a loss of six yards. The other came on a second-and-10 when Peppers rushed to the outside and evaded both Pashos and Vincent. Boller tried to run up the middle, and Peppers reversed course, getting into the middle of the field to sack Boller for a three-yard loss. Peppers shows a very instinctive ability to know where the ball carrier is going. Most defensive ends would have continued to rush to the outside, but Peppers seemed to sense that Boller was going to go up the middle, and he got there in time to sack him.

So if Peppers can sack quarterbacks, run down running backs, and cover tight ends, is there anything he can’t do? If I were an opposing offensive coordinator, I’d try to run directly at him. Peppers is a strong player and a sure tackler, but if he showed any weakness Sunday it was that Pashos sometimes beat him in straight-ahead run blocking. But this is a mere quibble. Peppers showed on Sunday that he’s not just a good player. He’s the best defensive player in the NFL.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Blindsite just to let you know, Vincent is one of the worst guards in the league and the article is about Peppers dominating him. But I do agree that Peppers is a great DE.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Its about him dominating him and Pashos
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Its about him dominating him and Pashos
Pashos was average at best also.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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You do realise Peppers plays on the strong side therefore he'd be covered by a RT.
Um, what? .
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:25 PM    (permalink
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Um, what? .
GG ignoring EVERYTHING else I have to say.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:26 PM    (permalink
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GG ignoring EVERYTHING else I have to say.
I'm simply asking what the hell are you talking about with the whole strong side/RT comment?
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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His measurables weren't all that rediculously amazing considering he plays faster and stronger than he has been recorded at on paper. If you watched him play for more than one or two games a season you'd know that.

He's got the ability to take over a game and has done so in the past. He sees a double team on every play, if he's not double teamed he's chipped at the line or he's held, every play he's one on one and the lineman doesn't decide to cheat he's reaching the quarterback.

You might not know this, but every officiating crew in the NFL has a brief written about them, so that coaches can instruct their players on certain things, like "these guys aren't big on holding penalties" or "these guys never miss a false start" so they know when they can hold or not, more often than not, when a refereeing crew is known to allowing holding Peppers just about gets bear hugged. I take notes when I watch games, because I write for panthershuddle. When I do, about half the snaps I watch Peppers, almost all of them will have a h, or a dt, for holding or double team.

Osi rarely sees the double team, same with Will Smith because of the players they have on their other side and the fact that they're on the weak side.

Face it, what we're comparing here, is a player who's given 100% of the offensive protection schemes attention during games because he's so damn good and the player on his other side is around the league average and two guys who've got better defensive ends on the other end of their defensive line and see a lot less double team blocks...

Peppers has better stats than them both despite receiving the attention he does and being on the other side, the more watched and schemed for side...



See the above, he does play up to his athleticism he flat out takes over games, did you happen to see carolina vs cleveland last year? Or his performance against Minnesota?



If he decides to stop using anabolic steroids.

This is the typical post in support of Peppers that makes me absolutely pull my hair out. Because its so off base and inaccurate, its not even funny.


Is Peppers doubled, chipped etc? OF COURSE. Is he the ONLY one in the league who is? ABSOLUTELY NOT.


Osi, Will Smith, Jason Taylor among others see the same exact treatment. To believe otherwise is simply inaccurate. The best dline on any team gets doubled. Thats how it works. And not to mention, Peppers goes against the RT, not the LT. So he's actually at a competitive advantage from this standpoint.

And before you say I havent watched any Panthers games, youre wrong. Ive watched plenty. And Ive watched him play both Dallas and the Giants this year as well. He got did not get doubled at all against Dallas. The entire game he went one on one with their RT and got WORKED. Now of course, every dog has its day, but to believe that Peppers is getting SO much more thrown at him than any other DE is an absolute fallicy. If you don't believe me, youre more than welcomed to go back and watch the tape of that game and prove me wrong. Id say at least 80% of the time, he just had the RT on him.


Don't get me wrong. Peppers is the arguably the best DE in the league. But to make him look like God is simply inaccurate. For a guy who's such a "beast", I believe (i could be wrong) that he's never led the league in sacks, tackles for a DE, or ever won DPOY. If he's THAT much better than everyone else, if he's easily the best defensemen in the league, don't you think he'd lead the league in at least ONE of these categories in any of his years?


Think about it.

And if you honestly believe everything you said about he gets so much more treatment thrown his way in terms of blocking/pass protection, then you simply don't understand how blocking works.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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I hate to think how scary the Panthers would be if they were as good as Blindsite thinks they are.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Boy, has this veered off-topic.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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McKenzie played Peppers just like Peitgout played Freeney....he let him fly up field time after time because he doesn't use pass rush moves effectively enough. The Giants did not double him very often to say the least, nor did they chip him. They were using their three interior linemen to block the DTs....not help with Mr. Overrated.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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McKenzie played Peppers just like Peitgout played Freeney....he let him fly up field time after time because he doesn't use pass rush moves effectively enough. The Giants did not double him very often to say the least, nor did they chip him. They were using their three interior linemen to block the DTs....not help with Mr. Overrated.
And thats what Peppers supporters fail to see. How mediocre he is in terms of pass rushing technique. Peppers is simply not that great of a pass rusher, regardless of what his supporters will lead you to believe. He's great against the run (although not best in the league), and he's great in coverage (the most overrated aspect of a DE), but as a pass rusher, I can probably name at least 5 DEs in the league better.

It gets frustrating even discussing him because people are so blind to the belief that he's so much better than everyone else. And its simply not true. And if anyone accuses me of just saying this because Im a Giants fan, thats simply not true either.
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