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Old 05-18-2007, 08:48 PM    (permalink
TPFKA#1SaintsFan
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He could be better than Vince if Coughlin wasn't his head coach. Just go watch what happened when the Titans played the Giants. Then come back and tell me who the better quarterback is.
Eli has his ups and downs. His game against the Saints last season was one of the worst I've ever seen a QB play. He single handedly made our D look dominant. AT THIS POINT, he's still a better QB than Vince Young.

Edit - Just checked up on Eli's game against the Saints, and DAMN. Take away the early long TD pass to Burress when Fred Thomas got burnt (shocker, I know), and he was 8 for 24 (33%) for 19 yards and an INT.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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As of right now, I think Eli's better, and he would definitely be without Coughlin. I hate Coughlin so much, I could write an essay, but I'll spare you. Anyway, VY had an excellent rookie year, no doubt(which is why he won ROY) but his passing was inconsistent and I think teams will find a better way to slow down his runs(they have a year of him on tape) and if they can contain his legs, he'll need to prove he can pass better. Can he do it? I think so. He had some very good games throwing the ball this past season, he just needs to get a bit more consistent. With his legs, he won't need to throw like Peyton to be a great QB, but he will definitely need to throw better than he did. As for Eli, he is also very inconsistent. But his inconsistency is better than Vince's inconsistency, at this point. It's close, and I think unless Eli really comes around, and Coughlin gets axed, I fully expect VY to pass him.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Yeah because stats mean everything and if we are doing stats you are leaving out his rushing stats. 552 yards and 7 TDs. Both of which are rookie records for a quarterback. You think quarterback play is all about how good your QB rating is? There's a lot more factored into it.

Remind me again. Who won rookie of the year?
You're honestly going to revert to his "ROY" when talking about how good he is? Vince Young is so overrated at this point it's not even funny. The only reason he won rookie of the year was because he was a "winner", and he was an exciting player. QB rating doesn't mean anything, huh? That could be a valid arguement if it was around 70 or 80. But a 66 QB rating and he wins the rookie of the year. That's ridiculous.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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Yeah because stats mean everything and if we are doing stats you are leaving out his rushing stats. 552 yards and 7 TDs. Both of which are rookie records for a quarterback. You think quarterback play is all about how good your QB rating is? There's a lot more factored into it.

Remind me again. Who won rookie of the year?
Who got to the SuperBowl?
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:58 PM    (permalink
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I'll try...

GREAT

1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Drew Brees
5. Donovan McNabb

GOOD

6. Marc Bulger
7. Philip Rivers
8. Ben Roethlesberger
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. Chad Pennington

AVERAGE

11. Jay Cutler
12. Tony Romo
13. Steve McNair
14. Vince Young
15. Matt Leinart
16. Trent Green
17. Eli Manning
18. Jeff Garcia
19. Brett Favre
20. Mike Vick
21. Byron Leftwich

POOR (or just too unexperienced)

22. Alex Smith
23. Jake Delhomme
24. J.P. Losman
25. Damon Huard
26. Rex Grossman

BAD (should be a backup QB)

27. Josh McCown
28. Jason Campbell
29. John Kitna
30. Matt Schaub
31. Tavaris Jackson
32. Charlie Frye



so what do you guys think? it's not perfect....but I think it's pretty decent.
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Old 05-18-2007, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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To call J.P. Losman poor just means that you didn't see him play last year.

He progressed VERY nicely, and did so without jack at WR after Lee Evans.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Other than Losman(and I don't agree with Smith being under "poor", but agree with his placement, more or less, just wrong heading), it's not that bad of a list. Obviously any list is gonna have flaws, since nobody here can watch many games of all 32 QBs.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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To call J.P. Losman poor just means that you didn't see him play last year.

He progressed VERY nicely, and did so without jack at WR after Lee Evans.
If you hadn't noticed, I included (or just too inexperienced) after POOR for that VERY reason. I can't justify putting him above the people ahead of him, because he's too young. The only exceptions were the big 3 drafted the same year: Vince, Leinart, and Cutler.

...well, and Romo, too, I suppose. But he, unlike JP, has the benefit of playing on a better team.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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Other than Losman(and I don't agree with Smith being under "poor", but agree with his placement, more or less, just wrong heading), it's not that bad of a list. Obviously any list is gonna have flaws, since nobody here can watch many games of all 32 QBs.
Yeah, again, I like Alex Smith a lot and think he has great potential. He falls under the "too inexperienced" part of the POOR listing. Sorry that wasn't clear enough.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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You're honestly going to revert to his "ROY" when talking about how good he is? Vince Young is so overrated at this point it's not even funny. The only reason he won rookie of the year was because he was a "winner", and he was an exciting player. QB rating doesn't mean anything, huh? That could be a valid arguement if it was around 70 or 80. But a 66 QB rating and he wins the rookie of the year. That's ridiculous.
So you don't think it's impressive that a guy who was supposed to take three years to start not only wins Rookie Of The Year but becomes the leader of his team? A rookie quarterback being the leader of his team is unheard of. You're completely leaving out the mental side of football. Without Vince Young the Titans would have won three games at best. He single-handedly brought that team from the gutter to the near playoffs. I'm not saying he's top five or top ten but he's top fifteen for sure and a better player than Eli Manning at this point.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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Who got to the SuperBowl?
The Bears and Colts, neither of which Eli Manning plays for.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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If you hadn't noticed, I included (or just too inexperienced) after POOR for that VERY reason. I can't justify putting him above the people ahead of him, because he's too young. The only exceptions were the big 3 drafted the same year: Vince, Leinart, and Cutler.

...well, and Romo, too, I suppose. But he, unlike JP, has the benefit of playing on a better team.
So, VY, Leinart and Cutler SHOULDN'T be unter the "just too inexperienced" list? Losman has started more games than all of those guys.

Losman played well enough last season to bump him up to your "average" list, IMO.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Favre Top 10 :)
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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So, VY, Leinart and Cutler SHOULDN'T be unter the "just too inexperienced" list? Losman has started more games than all of those guys.

Losman played well enough last season to bump him up to your "average" list, IMO.
Problem is, I see Jake and Alex Smith as better in terms of quality or potential right now, and I want to have more than like 2 people in my POOR list. Your point is definitely taken though, and that early 20s area was by far the hardest part for me to list.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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So you don't think it's impressive that a guy who was supposed to take three years to start not only wins Rookie Of The Year but becomes the leader of his team? A rookie quarterback being the leader of his team is unheard of. You're completely leaving out the mental side of football. Without Vince Young the Titans would have won three games at best. He single-handedly brought that team from the gutter to the near playoffs. I'm not saying he's top five or top ten but he's top fifteen for sure and a better player than Eli Manning at this point.
Who in the world said it'd take 3 years for him to start? Btw, Rex Grossman became a leader early in his career as well as our starting QB, should we make him MVP while we're at it?

Vince has pretty much done everything with his legs. A low 50% completion percentage and a 66.6 QB rating is not to good for calling a guy a top 15 QB.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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The Bears and Colts, neither of which Eli Manning plays for.
That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.
No, the Bears' defense won games.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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Who in the world said it'd take 3 years for him to start? Btw, Rex Grossman became a leader early in his career as well as our starting QB, should we make him MVP while we're at it?

Vince has pretty much done everything with his legs. A low 50% completion percentage and a 66.6 QB rating is not to good for calling a guy a top 15 QB.
Just about every analyst in the football world said it would take three years. Rex Grossman was never the leader of the Bears. That's has and always will be Brian Urlacher until he retires. Did I say Vince should be MVP? No, I didn't.

I will agree that Vince does a lot with his legs but how is that a knock against the guy? You don't want him using one of his best talents to win games? I will agree that his passing stats weren't incredible but there's more to being a quarterback than QB Rating. Damon Huard had a better QB Rating than Tom Brady.

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That wasn't my argument. You said Vince won games, well so did Rex.
The Bears defense and special teams won those games. Also, who blew the Super Bowl for the Bears? Rex Grossman.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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No, the Bears' defense won games.
and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.
The Bears' defense won in spite of Rex half the time, the other half Rex just played clean-up on what the defense already won. Either way, he was never the REASON they won. When did he ever stage a comeback with 1 minute to go the way Brady and Manning, or even any of the good QBs do? And okay, I didn't watch every Bears game, so maybe he DID do it once.

But the point is, Rex brought nothing to the team. At all.

The Titans, however, won BECAUSE of Vince. They had a decent to good defense, which helped, but Vince was the one doing last second drives, running the ball on 3rd for the 1st, and carrying his team to victory like a quarterback should.

Any new GM who could pick between Rex and Vince, and picked Rex, would be the biggest idiot in the league, and I don't see how you could even argue against that.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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and the titans defense had absolultely nothing to do with VY's win


by the "Vince won games" argument, you could claim that Philip Rivers is the best QB in the league, and thats just not the case.
The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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The first page of this thread is a perfect example of people rating "potential" higher than actual production. And everytime we see people do that, we see people get disappointed the next year. The 4 main culprits this year--Young, Rivers, Cutler and Leinart.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.
Dang, you're right. I thought Tennessee had a defense ranked around 12th or so, boy was I wrong.

Oh well, all it does is strengthen our argument against this other guy. VY wins games. Rex loses them.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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Dang, you're right. I thought Tennessee had a defense ranked around 12th or so, boy was I wrong.

Oh well, all it does is strengthen our argument against this other guy. VY wins games. Rex loses them.
You can blame it all on Lamont Thompson and Reynaldo Hill.

There's no way in the world anybody who isn't a Bears fan can say Rex is better than Vince. None. If you actually think that then you're a complete idiot who lost money on the Rose Browl.
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Old 05-18-2007, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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The Titans defense finished dead last in the league and the Bears defense finished fifth. The only game the Titans defense won was the game against the Jaguars in week 15.

Look at the talent Philip Rivers has around him and look at the talent Vince Young has. Rivers has the best running back, fullback, tight end, and arguably offensive line in all of football. Almost every quarterback could win with that. It takes a lot of talent to be able to win with Drew Bennett and Travis Henry.
well, you cant say an argument applies to one person and not to another.
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