New England Patriots Discussion - Page 201

ElectricEye · 03-11-2011, 10:51 AM

Yeah, I'm not sold on the idea of some sort of super sub-package player either. Jordan doesn't have any issue being an every down five technique either, so I'm still on board with him.

descendency · 03-11-2011, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nepg

If they draft a DL, it should be one that is an every down guy at DE...a straight-up 5-tech.

A 5 tech is not an every down player. 5 tech is just DE in one of the base defenses.

When someone is an every down player, they can play in subpackages as much as the base defense.

The knock on Heyward is when the Patriots go into a sub package, he'll be on the bench. (well, that and his motor)

Nalej · 03-11-2011, 11:01 AM

I believe CJ can be a base 34 DE and an UT on the sub packages.

Razor · 03-11-2011, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalej

I believe CJ can be a base 34 DE and an UT on the sub packages.

I don't, not at 287 lbs. I'm completely off Jordan, I'm about to kill puppies every time I see him mocked to the Pats. To me he's a better version of Justin Tuck: LDE and interior pass rusher in sub packages. I'm just happy that he isn't going to make it past St. Louis. Right? Right? Please let me be right...

TNPatsFan · 03-11-2011, 11:56 AM

Well at least I'm not alone in my feelings on Cam Jordan. I've been saying for a while now.. Cam Jordan is Jarvis Green. A small DE who will be better off as a third down DL if he gets drafted by a 3-4 team, and who will get run over if he is asked to play DE in a base 3-4 defense. He's a good player, but not what I want to spend a top 20 pick on.

J255979-11nine · 03-11-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNPatsFan

Well at least I'm not alone in my feelings on Cam Jordan. I've been saying for a while now.. Cam Jordan is Jarvis Green. A small DE who will be better off as a third down DL if he gets drafted by a 3-4 team, and who will get run over if he is asked to play DE in a base 3-4 defense. He's a good player, but not what I want to spend a top 20 pick on.

There is no hope in hell that this statement is true. Jarvis Green wishes he could be half the player Jordan will be.

FlyingElvis · 03-11-2011, 01:47 PM

He's not Seymour big, but he's not Jarvis Green small, either. And he's far more athletic and fluid than Jarvis ever even thought about being. lol

Scott's notes on him in the senior bowl weigh in thread:

• Cameron Jordan California 6'4⅛ 287 34½ 11¼
Notes: Broad shoulders with long arms. Just BIG.

TNPatsFan · 03-11-2011, 01:52 PM

Jarvis used to play between 285 and 290, and I'm pretty sure he was at least 6'3. In other words, the same size as Jordan.

FlyingElvis · 03-11-2011, 02:27 PM

I get what you're saying, but think it's a huge dig at Jordan to compare him to Jarvis. And I love me some Jarvis.

If you want to make it a fair comparison you should at least compare combine stats. Green played at 290, but he sure didn't come into the league at 290. Jarvis was an inch shorter and 15 pounds lighter. He also was timed slower in every category didn't jump as high or far.

Jordan looks to have better all around skills coming out, too. Personally, I'm going to be very happy with Heyward instead. I just think it's a bit much to say Jordan is Jarvis Green.

TNPatsFan · 03-11-2011, 02:38 PM

To clarify, I'm not saying Jordan wouldn't be a better player than Jarvis. But rather I'm saying he's the same type of player.

And yes I will admit I am in a very miniscule minority on this whole DraftCountdown forum in that I don't care nearly as much about measurables and combine performances as I do what a player does playing football. And Jordan was a good, but not great, college football player. I'm not saying he's no good, but I just don't see him as a top 15 pick. Late first or early second is where I'd feel comfortable taking him, and I'd still take Heyward, Clayborn, and Watt over him if they were all on the board and I was determined to take a DL... and quite frankly I might even rather have Jarvis Jenkins over Jordan. I could probably go either way on that one.

FlyingElvis · 03-11-2011, 02:50 PM

Fair enough. I think Heyward is the better option for us. It's just tough to ignore the upside you get with a more athletic guy like Jordan.

Razor · 03-11-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNPatsFan

To clarify, I'm not saying Jordan wouldn't be a better player than Jarvis. But rather I'm saying he's the same type of player.

And yes I will admit I am in a very miniscule minority on this whole DraftCountdown forum in that I don't care nearly as much about measurables and combine performances as I do what a player does playing football. And Jordan was a good, but not great, college football player. I'm not saying he's no good, but I just don't see him as a top 15 pick. Late first or early second is where I'd feel comfortable taking him, and I'd still take Heyward, Clayborn, and Watt over him if they were all on the board and I was determined to take a DL... and quite frankly I might even rather have Jarvis Jenkins over Jordan. I could probably go either way on that one.

Quoted for thruth.

I'm kinda "meh" on Heyward. He looks like a pretty safe pick, but he has little or no upside. I am, however, very high on Wilkerson, Watt and Jenkins. All have huge upside and a skill set similar to what BB would look for. Jenkins might not have ideal strength, but that will change in a NFL strength and conditioning program.

ElectricEye · 03-11-2011, 03:49 PM

Can't break football down by sheer triangle numbers alone. Jordan has a broad frame and will continue to get bigger. He's close to 290 pounds right now and will likely end up around 305 if he's drafted into a 3-4.

Hell, I don't even really care about the measurables on Jordan. They're just above average as far as what kind of player he is. It's what he shows on tape consistently that's the best part about him. Far and away the best defensive linemen in the Pac 10 over the past few years and I've been pretty big on him even before the hype train started moving. There's really not much he can do to change your stance either. Contrary to what you claim about seemingly every single player, he shows up in the game tape and has dominated the post season process. Scott and others had him lauded as a top ten type pick even before the Senior Bowl and gets paid to do that stuff. Does that make him an infallible prospect? No. But Justin Tuck and Jarvis Green aren't good names to bring up just because he weighs the same as those guys. Richard Seymour, was a rare prototypical 3-4 DE and we would be best to just get over him because they don't make them like that. With the rise of the 3-4 and the increasing reliance on the pass in the NFL, teams are demanding superior athletes at the position these days anyway even if that means sacrificing a bit of bulk.

Nalej · 03-11-2011, 03:50 PM

I would still take C.Heyward and JJ Watt over CJ but I still think CJ could be a 4 down player for us

FlyingElvis · 03-11-2011, 03:55 PM

To clarify my comments on combine numbers & weights:

I only listed them to demonstrate that Jarvis Green at 290 was an unfair comparison since he wasn't that big coming out. He had to bulk up, and Jordan can do the same - jumping to the 300 mark easily. All while being undeniably better on athletically and taller, too.

ElectricEye · 03-11-2011, 03:59 PM

Hell, with Jordan's frame, he might be able to get to 310. He's very broad, long, and cut right now.

descendency · 03-13-2011, 11:47 AM

Yeah, Jordan, Watt, and Heyward are all 3 players that could have prototypical builds for a 5-technique.

I wouldn't question that. You could question lots of things, but a 290 pound DE in college under an NFL workout program can certainly gain 10 pounds.

Nalej · 03-16-2011, 01:06 PM

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-e...l-talking-pats

Not to put words in his mouth and not mich of a surprise
Moss wants back in NE

Matthew Jones · 03-16-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Quoted for thruth.

I'm kinda "meh" on Heyward. He looks like a pretty safe pick, but he has little or no upside. I am, however, very high on Wilkerson, Watt and Jenkins. All have huge upside and a skill set similar to what BB would look for. Jenkins might not have ideal strength, but that will change in a NFL strength and conditioning program.

Heyward has upside - if he wasn't so inconsistent this year and didn't hurt his arm, he would have been one of the top five or so picks in the draft. Going into this season he and Clayborn were considered potentially the two best prospects in the entire draft.

Razor · 03-16-2011, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalej

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-e...l-talking-pats

Not to put words in his mouth and not mich of a surprise
Moss wants back in NE

YEEEESSSSSSSssssss...!!! Woohoo! Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes. Please make it happen.... Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please! Come back, Randy!

ElectricEye · 03-17-2011, 11:37 AM

Heard about that; not sure about bringing him back. I would have brought him in before the Titans did last year if we could have...but we're sort of in a good position to move on right now. I think he can still play for sure if he wants to(pretty well too)...but mixed feelings.

FlyingElvis · 03-17-2011, 12:00 PM

He'd provide a buffer for Taylor Price's development, but I just don't feel like he can be trusted to play. An incentive based contract that made him a cheap cut if he started with the short arm, doggin' it BS would be fine by me. Unless it prevents us from taking Hank. ; )

ElectricEye · 03-17-2011, 12:33 PM

I could do that. I just hope he and Brady know his role. Any repeat of that awful Jets game at the start of the year would suck. Then again...any repeat of the awful Jets game at the end of the season would be even worse.

ElectricEye · 03-17-2011, 07:14 PM

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...s-the-shooter/

Merri just can't stop taking cheap shots at guys heads.

descendency · 04-07-2011, 01:22 AM

Just curious, why does no one ever point out that Pete Carroll coached (for 3 years) the team Bill Parcells built? And Belichick simply managed to recover the team after 3 years of Pete Carroll?

I always see people say "Belichick won with Parcells team, not his" but by the time they won in 04 (which was considered the best team in NE - save maybe 07), it had been 8 years since Parcells had any involvement with the team... which is significantly longer than most NFL players last.

I've quite seriously never seen that said in any of these "belichick isn't great" threads.

edit: Is it embarrassment? I would be embarrassed if he coached my team too.